User talk:Cynwolfe

Request

Hi Cynwolfe. I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but I think you're being rather unfair in suggesting that neutrality concerns represent "the imposition of our political views or emotional responses". I thought I'd made it clear in the RfC that sources have taken issue with the term 'FGM', arguing that it is, for example, 'judgemental and "tantamount to an accusation of evil intent", non-neutral, and political.' It's not often that we're so fortunate in having sources judge NPOV-related issues for us — usually we have to do so ourselves. But since they have in this case, would you consider altering your comment? Jakew (talk) 17:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Jakew, there may be editors who are arguing on the basis of sources, but a lot of them are not. They're arguing that "mutilation" should be used because the practice is horrific and abhorrent; I agree with this view of the practice personally (and I don't edit articles on contemporary topics that I have such strong feelings about), but that is not the argument to make. I appreciate what you're saying about the sources themselves arguing that the word "mutilation" is charged, but this can be dealt with in the body of the article if it's determined that (based on the sources) "mutilation" is more common and clearer than "cutting."

That said, I"ve seen cases on Wikipedia where the weight of scholarship is plainly wrong, and a more careful minority of scholars are demonstrably in the right. I don't know what to do about that; it's an interesting problem of WP methodology. But we don't call the article on rape "non-consensual sex" or "forced sex" just to be nice to rapists; we call it "rape" because that's the most common and clearest word for what we're trying to describe. I see that UShick, who always has interesting views, has proposed "female circumcision," which is perhaps neutral, but which forces an analogy with the more common male circumcision that can only roil the waters further (since there are in fact instances when adult males undergo circumcision for functional or medical reasons—when undertaken for the rare medical reason, however, the removal of the clitoris is called clitoridectomy). I have in passing written of a similar practice in antiquity (and will be presenting this in slightly more detail in Sexuality in ancient Rome under "Female sexuality"), where the term "clitoridectomy" is used. That's what all the sources I've seen on the ancient practice call it, and therefore that is what I called it in this section of the article "Women in Ancient Rome". More accurately, however, this surgery seems to have been clitoral reduction, and given the anatomical vagaries of the ancients may have involved the labia, akin to vaginal cosmetic surgery, a practice that to my mind belongs in the category of "barbaric medical practices" that will shock people in the future as much as removing ribs to fit into a corset or footbinding shocks us now. I suppose the article on FGM could be called "non-consensual clitoridectomy" or "ritual clitoridectomy" if neutrality is the first aim, but I doubt the sources will support either.

Although I may find reason to expand on my comment at the RfC or refine or alter my reasoning, I don't see any need to strike anything, because I don't see any factual errors or incivility. I can't think of anything that would persuade me that this shouldn't be based on the principles of "most common" and "undue," as indicated by RS. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this scorchingly emotive topic in a civilized manner, though. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Cyn. You make some good points. I think we all agree that the practice is horrific and abhorrent, but as you rightly say, we shouldn't allow that to dictate how we present the topic. To my mind, the problem with using loaded terminology is that it is effectively the same as asserting an opinion: there's little difference between referring to the subject as "FGM" and asserting that it mutilates. Maybe we all agree that it does mutilate; certainly a lot of sources agree, but a lot of sources also tell us that those in the practising communities don't consider it as mutilation. So while it's a majority Western viewpoint I'm not sure that we can call it an uncontested opinion to the extent that we can assert it as factual. And so it makes me really uncomfortable to do that. I don't think there's enough of a difference in clarity between "FGM" and "FGC" (or, indeed, "FGM" and "FGM/C") to justify that loss of neutrality.

In any case, we clearly have very different interpretations of NPOV, and that's probably no bad thing. I always learn a lot from this sort of discussion, and I think it's healthy to reexamine one's understanding of WP principles from time to time. It's too early to be sure, but consensus today seems to favour FGM, and if that's the outcome then I can at least say I tried. Best wishes, Jakew (talk) 19:14, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Murasaki Shikibu

Hi Cynwolfe - nice to run into you again! Stupidly I barged into the Murasaki Shikibu without bothering to read the talk page - which after six weeks or more of working on the article, I've finally looked at and found the discussion re novel. I've tried to be very careful in that regard, but let me know if you think I've strayed. In my view much of the definition should go the Genji page, and the Murasaki page be more of an overview. I've found that historians tend to define her work as a novel whereas literary scholars hesitate to use to the term or will qualify it heavily, so I've decided to lean more on the literary critics than the historians with the logic that as a piece of literature they should be given greater consideration. Hope you agree. Truthkeeper (Talk) 02:37, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Bringing order out of the cacophony of a Wikipedia talk page

I hadn't taken the page off my watchlist, but as soon as I saw your name recurring I knew it was in good hands so I stopped checking it. I agree that the genre and "first" discussion mainly belongs at the article on the novel (and as I noted the treatment there was already more nuanced), not the biography. I'm a complete ignoramus about Japanese literature, but Murasaki Shikibu had come up at the Women's History project and when I went to the article I was concerned about the emphatic claim for her as writing the first novel "by centuries," I think it said originally. Given postmodernist novels, I'm fine with calling her work a novel; it's the claim of "first" that seems to me unsupportable (well, and denying Apuleius a "psychological" element, though that only has to do with the talk page). One of the other participants and I had recently been in a discussion where we objected to the statement "Athens invented theatre" for a number of reasons, so it was a little irritating to be perceived as arguing the point only out of some kind of obstinate Eurocentricism or a classics snobbery. The long prose works of antiquity aren't that well known, but they are indeed called "novels", as the substantial bibliography on them indicates; to my frustration this point wasn't self-evident.

Anyway, to me it's quite interesting that long prose fictions have been assuming forms that are more like ancient and medieval narratives, sprawling and digressive, rather than the classic 18th-19th century novel. So that's why I fixated on the talk page a while. In short, I do agree: her achievement should be summed up in a way that does her justice, not reduced to a sports stat that can easily be disputed. Do you feel any obligation to say in the intro that Genji is sometimes considered one of the earliest novels, or the first Japanese novel, or something like that, with an explanatory footnote???? I don't know; since the "first novelist" claim is out there, does it need to be addressed head-on and nuanced? (I think it's funny you've been editing without reading the talk page; sometimes it's better that way. The one who is pure of heart catches the unicorn.) Cynwolfe (talk) 12:03, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd just finished copyediting List of National Treasures of Japan (writings: Japanese books), which is about early Japanese literature and it made me think of Murasaki. I dove right in without ever looking at the talk page, and there hasn't been any activity there since I started editing. Last night was the first time I looked - I think maybe I shut down a debate. I wouldn't put in the lead anything about Genji being considered a novel - the literary scholars are too cautious, and the focus is a biography on her page. I think's it's fine to link to the Genji page and tackle the issue there. When I'm finished will probably clean up the Genji page and do something to that extent there, but heavily qualified. Also, I have addressed the issue, with attributions and direct quotations in the "Genji" section, which should be enough. I hadn't realized it's part of Wikiproject Women's History, but again that shows how blinded I am when I'm in article building mode. Anyway, I intend to bring this to FAC fairly soon, once I'm satisfied its completely polished, so will post to the Wikiproject at that time. Hopefully it will become an FA for the project. Btw - I do like Apuleius. I've always though Cupid and Psyche would be a fun page to expand. I like working on pages where I can add good illustrations. One more thing, re Wikiproject Women's History - next up for me will be Isabella de Medici, hopefully in collaboration with Ceoil. If she's not already, should she be added to the project? Oh, and thanks for the image. Truthkeeper (Talk) 17:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Mithraic Mysteries – New SPI

Hello Cynwolfe. I've opened a new sock puppet investigation in relation to recent activity re the Mithraic Mysteries page. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Roger_Pearse Thought I should let you know. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 23:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. It does seem a strong indication when the one IP edited the user page. I haven't been watching the article, and since I don't have a sense of what's been going on, I wouldn't have anything to contribute to the SPI discussion. I never quite got over my profound disappointment at the personal prejudices unmasked in the earlier incident, and prefer to avert my eyes, I think. Cynwolfe (talk) 05:46, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Sacra

Got your message, thanks for the thought. I have no idea where this comes from, I found an inaccuracy, however it is not so bad. Hope you will comment on Jupiter once finished.Aldrasto11 (talk) 13:01, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I read it again and compared it with Religion in Ancient Rome. The last article in fact does not deal with the topic expressly and systematically. As it is it should be linked to other articles on the subject or could be deleted putting a redirect to the glossary, which does have a voice sacra. Some information could be integrated there too. Correctly speaking the gentilicia, paganica etc. are not publica, the publica r only the state s.Aldrasto11 (talk) 02:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

For being there. Haploidavey (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

And for the wonderful link! That's some wake-up call - and doesn't he write well? - all tinder and flint, hard edged, penetrating lyricism. I just read it aloud to the collective (that's me and the Aged P), and am now settled down for a leisurely re-reading. And cripes, what's this - another Ahl!

On Liber - thank you for the praise (and the fix of my blatant grammatical duh!). Odd, really, that the article's the effortless result of much blood, carnage and tortured research elsewhere. Now there's a lesson for me... Haploidavey (talk) 14:33, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

And for us all. Glad you liked the Ovid-Rushdie article. Yes, the Liber seemed effortless, as the culmination of past effort. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:33, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Jupiter

Sorry to disturb you with a triviality: I find the painting by Ingres (or David?) horrible... In my view the best painting capturing the essence of the relationship between Jupiter and the world is Giorgione's La tempesta. Do WP rules allow its use here?Aldrasto11 (talk) 06:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll check into it. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the hrlpfulness. Replied to you and Davey on my talk page.Aldrasto11 (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your great contribution. Most of the links are out of my reach but I managed to read something of Setti's book. I shall try and search also the other books in other ways... I think you are right , there is certainly sufficient material for justifying the use of the painting in the artickle, with a caption stating that quite a few scholarly critics interprets the lightning as representing Jupiter. It looks there has been a number of interpreters who saw Mars and Venus or Mercury in the couple etc... Aldrasto11 (talk) 15:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Cyn, that was a truly impressive piece of directed research. 21:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Haploidavey (talk)

When you have a minute, could you please help me with the Giorgione image? I uploaded it yesterday but somebody removed it as I do not know how to write in the caption. Where exactly should one write? I wish to write something like : "Some scholars interpret/think/believe Giorgione's The tempest to represent Jupiter as the bearer and fosterer of the world". You may change the wording as you think appropriate. Thank you a lot. Aldrasto11 (talk) 02:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks: I knew it was already uploaded but not how to write the caption. The article is now finished.Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

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You've got mail!

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Iguvine Tablets

I am reading the tables on the on line work by Newman. I found the Trebulan Gate. I wondered whether the epithet Trebus Iovius is related to the name of the gate (the gate leading to Trebulae) but the other two gates do not seem to have given names to the two lesser divine entities Fisus Sancius and Tefer Iovius.

Tefer is Tiber but not the river: what does it mean? I mean etymologically. Newman interprets it as piece (tomaculum) of sacrificial meat, i. e. as a common word not a proper name, from the start (he starts with T. III). If you have time could you please look up for me the OLD for interpretation of the other same root words ? I think of e. g. tibia, tiburium etc. The name of the river could derive from an ancient religious practise or just mean that it cuts the centre of Italy. Of course the ancient etymologies just move the question one step back: saying it comes from a person's name never mind Latin or Etruscan leaves the issue unanswered and unchanged. Thank you very much.

On Trebula: Metuesca seems the correct spelling, but the WK article spells Metusca, so it should be changed.Aldrasto11 (talk) 00:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Re Holland

Yes sorry about the quotation marks, genuine mistake there. By style he means tactics, I merely thought it best not to repeat the word. And I do think it helpful because it provides a citation on an otherwise uncited claim. Now, I shall go and paraphase it to avoid deletion.

Lucius Winslow (talk) 23:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Crisis of faith?

What's this, flippancy?. My, my... Haploidavey (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The "or not" is exasperation at finding a reference that says this is outside the theory of trifunctionality. Go figure. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Wife-selling

I wouldn't be surprised. That's what tends to happen around an occupying army with lots of money. Tacitus would snort about the Romans corrupting the noble savages.

One source, I think, would be Ammianus Marcellinus on Fritigern and the Visigoths when they came into Roman territory two or three years before Adrianople. That wasn't free contract, of course, but it shows what the Romans expected as nrmal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Jean-Baptiste Roman

Hi Cynwolfe, I just thought I'd let you know that I saw your article Jean-Baptiste Roman in the New Articles list-- You did an excellent job with including references and citations.However, I noticed there are some holes that may need filling: some of the article's Wikilinks are broken. It would be great if you could also add references to the related article José Charlet.

I'm kind of new here myself but let me know if there is any way I can help. Thanks, Amy Z (talk) 19:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, er, yes, I am not new here and the stub tag was intended as a cheerful acknowledgement of the effort's insufficiency. I was mildly surprised that the artist's works illustrated three Wikipedia articles, two as the top image, with a significant representation of the subject in the third, and yet he lacked an article. I was also mildly surprised that I found so little about him, though as I recall I used English search parameters so probably missed out on some French resources. I suspect that an artist database might be needed, or an actual trip to a library, which I'm not motivated to do for this fellow. Don't know what you mean by broken links; there's only one external link, to the Louvre Atlas Database, and while I notice that it isn't the link I'd intended (should be the main search results, not an individual work, and I'll correct that), it seems to be working just fine. All the internal links seem to lead to the correct articles; do you perhaps refer to the red link to his colleague Françoise Rude, who (as the red link indicates), lacks an article? I have no immediate intention of developing Monsieur Roman's little biography, nor writing one for Monsieur Rude, and encourage you to do so. And if I may ask, why on earth am I supposed to add references to José Charlet, an article I don't recall ever visiting? He seems to belong to the 20th century, where I rarely spend my Wikipedia time. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

His colleage is François Rude, being -er- masculine. Wet noodle, two strokes; the other being for saying Roman was alive in 1862. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Ouch, thank you, master. What sloppiness. Have no idea where I copied (literally) that date from. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reason you deleted the example of his work? Cynwolfe (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Ouch myself. Probably not; looks like I was editing an old version. 1862 is from the Process-verbal, and I agree it is misleading; but it must mean Petitot. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:13, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, sheer haste and sloppiness on my part, and trying to edit while distracted by certain kinds of WP noise. I shall lie awake worrying about my deteriorating faculties now. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

White ground technique

Thanks for alerting me. I am very happy with those edits, it looks much better that way, and the gallery is a good idea. If you are interested in that type of thing, please have a look at the various Greek vase painting articles I have added over the last few days. athinaios | Talk 13:56, 23 October 2011 (UTC)