Talk:Intellectual property

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pov + synth

The entire existence of this word is minority POV-pushing by WIPO/MPAA/RIAA. Copyright, Patent, and Trademark law is not at all analogous to physical property law. Jwray (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Property is a definition of the society. If the people define that one shall have property rights on land or other real estate, it is their definition of property. If their constitution gives the lawmaker the right and duty to define contents, limits and scope of property, like in Germany, the legislator has to define what can be property and what not. If the legislator defines intellectual creations as property, then it is property: "In the decisions of the Federal Constitutional court it already been settled that the work created by the author and the performance it embodies are property in the sense of Art 14(1), sentence 1 GG, that the author's constitutional ownership guarantee results in his obligation to commercially exploit this "intellectual" property, and that the legislator, in the framework of the regulation requirement under 14(1) sentence 2 GG, has the obligation to define appropriate standards which ensure that its use and appropriate exploitation correspond to the nature and the social significance of this right (cf. BVerfGE 31, 229 <238 et seq.>; 49, 382 <392>). These principles apply accordingly to the patent right (cf. BVerfGE 36, 281 <290-291> concerning the inventor's technical intellectual property right which has not yet gained patent right status)." German BVerfG (May 5, 2000). "1 BvR 1864/95 "Klinische Versuche"". pp. par. 13. Retrieved April 12, 2009.

If you search properly, you will find eqivalent decisions for your country for "intellectual property". Or do you want to fight against your constitution? --Swen 21:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swen (talk • contribs)

both of these statements are rediculous. Look at what Jefferson, framer of the constition, says on copyrights and patents.Scientus (talk) 02:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Jwray made a similar comment on Talk:Copyright. As I responded there, I understand that some members of the open source community, most notably Stallman, object to the term; and that's fine. However, it's definitely established as the umbrella term for these and other types of rights. See, for example the web page What is Intellectual Property? ([1]) hosted by the United Nations agency, the World Intellectual Property Organization. To avoid using the term in deference to a minority opinion like Stallman's, in the face of near-universal acceptance of the term would be violating WP:NPOV. TJRC (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the neutrality tag, per TJRC. Well established term indeed. --Edcolins (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits have shifted things the other way. This now reads like an anti-IP screed. — Aldaron • T/C 19:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Moved thread here and retitled to match situation on article ATM, couldn't find a synth-specific discussion above. Lycurgus (talk) 05:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there any actual law anywhere that is codified as "intellectual property law"? The phrase has become a popular term, but it is entirely conventional and not technically an actual area of the law, is it? So it does seem that the article's neutrality is compromised by the uncritical use of a phrase, which has been promoted for several decades now as part of an industry PR campaign. The invention of the phrase for PR purposes is common knowledge. The mere fact that the phrase is now in common usage does not make it neutral. The article seems very naive and like it was written by people who don't actually understand the difference between the law and popular cultural/PR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.58.134 (talk) 07:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

How the law is codified is a red herring. "Intellectual Property" is an established term, and is the subject of this article, and so its appropriate name. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it:

intellectual property n. chiefly Law; property (such as patents, trademarks, and copyright material) which is the product of invention or creativity, and does not exist in a tangible, physical form.

It includes cites to usage going back to 1769. This is more than a "couple decades" per your conspiracy theory. It's a logical and well-established grouping of related bodies of law. TJRC (talk) 08:24, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality of Economic Growth section

Edited it to remove redundant tags, since citation was provided immediately after one of the tags, as well as attempting to make claims less apparently opinionated. Leaving neutrality tags as they are, planning on removing in a week or so if no major disupte has come as a result of my edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheezewheel (talk • contribs) 00:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I have added some extra references to outline the economic objectives of intellectual property law, because it seems to be one of the primary reasons the agreements are created in the first place.Prettyoldflowers (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ayn Rand - a prominent thinker on intellectual property?

Is it not a bit strange to feature a quote from Ayn Rand as the lead in for the section on intellectual property rights? Perhaps she deserves to be cited here as a prominent thinker on the subject? Or is it an editors attempt to create political spin around the subject? Johnfravolda (talk) 20:36, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Who cares what Ayn Rand thought about intellectual property?Dblobaum (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I strongly, strongly suggest the Ayn Rand section be removed. Citing her as a source on intellectual property is similar to citing shakespeare on war: both are EXTREMELY subjective. Scrycer (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course it's subjective, which is why the section starts "Ayn Rand supported ...". I agree that it probably ought to be replaced with something better, but I feel that her opinion is better than an empty "Rights and justice" section. VernoWhitney (talk) 19:36, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Scrycer, Rand's opinion itself isn't subjective (in the sense that it is, after all, an opinion)... it's the inclusion of her opinion as subjective. Scores of people have opinions on intellectual property. But for an encyclopedic entry on intellectual property, personal views on the subject should be limited to those people who are prominent, notable, and influential in the field of intellectual property. And only reliable, secondary sources should be used to identify who those people are.

In short, Ayn Rand has opinions on intellectual property. Wikipedia needs sources that show why we should care what those opinions are.

Hartboy (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Besides being of unclear relevance, the Rand section contributes to the generally politicized feel of the article. If intellectual property constitutes a major subject of her writing, perhaps this information would be (more) suitable for the page detailing her philosophy and views. Shadowice (talk) 21:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, I've removed the section from the article page to here:

Ayn Rand supported copyrights and patents, noting in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal that they are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man's right to the product of his mind. An idea as such cannot be protected until it has been given a material form. An invention has to be embodied in a physical model before it can be patented; a story has to be written or printed. But what the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. Although it is important to note, that a discovery cannot be patented, only an invention. She argued that the term should be limited. If it were held in perpetuity, it would lead to the opposite of the very principle on which it is based: it would lead, not to the earned reward of achievement, but to the unearned support of parasitism.

Hartboy (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

It is unfortunate to see a reference to Ayn Rand as the only entry under the "Morality" section. Ayn Rand aside, I think the section on morality is relevant and should be expanded to give an overview of just what IP is trying to do morally. As it is, the article skips over any substantive development of IP as a moral construct and moves directly into criticism. This would bring balance to the article and (I think) give a better picture of exactly what there is to criticize. Rand could be cited as an influential philosopher who developed a moral position on IP, or could easily be left out entirely. Prettyoldflowers (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added more material to further develop the "Morality" section, however I left the Ayn Rand entry alone. --Alkwan (talk) 04:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Google Image Search

WHY DOES THIS PAGE KEEP POPPING UP EVERY TIME WE DO A GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH? -- unsigned comment added by 78.86.10.126 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I've no idea! By "this page" do you mean the article page or this "talk" page? Can you give an example of a search that I can try? What happens if you try the same search on another computer? -- John of Reading (talk) 07:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Apologies. by 'this page' I meant the article itself... Try this - Google "diffuse thinning hair translplant" and select images - hopefully the third image along horizontally should repeat the problem - it'll be the image from 'hairlosstalk.com' (it's not limited to this at all- happens on many many searches) - click on the image - after a brief period (1 second max) of seeing the image in the upper frame, the entire link is redirected to this Intellectual Property article. It's rather strange. It is actually possible to beat the redirection if you can get the pointer onto the url during the 1 second pause. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.10.126 (talk) 23:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

That would be some javascript from hairlosstalk which is redirecting you here (presumably because they don't want you browsing to their page via Google Images or similar):

<script type="text/javascript"> if ((window.self != window.top) || (window.parent.frames.length > 0)) { window.top.location = 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property'; } </script>

Basically, if you navigate to that page inside of a frame (like how Google Images does it), it will redirect you here. This has been your technical lesson of the day. Cheers! VernoWhitney (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.10.126 (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Octrooibureau Vriesendorp & Gaade B.V.

The article Octrooibureau Vriesendorp & Gaade B.V. (a Dutch patent attorney agency) has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Octrooibureau Vriesendorp & Gaade B.V. Thank you. --Edcolins (talk) 12:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Jefferson and Madison

I removed the following segment from the "History" section of the main article:

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, drafters of the Copyright Clause, were both quite skeptical to the monopolies of copyright, and monopolies of patents, and wrote extensively on the subject.

Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

— Thomas Jefferson, to Isaac McPherson 13 Aug. 1813 Writings 13:333--35

Reasons

1. It is unclear how this section fits within the scope of the history of IP
2. Factual inaccuracy: Jefferson did not draft the Copyright Clause; Madison and Pinckney both submitted proposals concerning copyright and patent, and the Committee of Eleven drafted the version in the Constitution
3. More inaccuracy: the claim that Madison was "skeptical" of copyright is unsupported by a reference and likely wrong. See his statements regarding the Clause in the Federalist 43: "The utility of this power will scarcely be questioned."
4. The inclusion and length of the Jefferson quote within the section places a great deal of weight on it. It is unclear from the context why so much weight should be placed on a quote from a personal letter - except perhaps because it conforms to the editor's beliefs.
5. In addition, the emphasis on the last sentence of the quote is not present in the original writing - suggesting further that the inclusion of the quote is not NPOV

Hartboy (talk) 04:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Immaterial property rights

The expression IPR = "immaterial property rights" is commonly used in IT standardisation (I heard it for instance at UN/CEFACT Forum talking about such intrest conflicts regarding their work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN/CEFACT ) and business environment (here is one example http://www.jarisotka.com/index.php?section=25 ) as a general term of this civil law area. There are no references to it in Wikipedia and should at least be mensioned as an expression connected to some other expression in this filed. A person hearing the expression IPR should be able to find it at the Wikipedia. --Jan Bergström member of UN/CEFACT TBG12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.185.116.199 (talk) 13:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

December 2010

The whole first paragraph **is** POV it completely equates it as 'ownership' rather than a collection term for patent and copyright *rights*. I resent it. 88.159.79.244 (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, the use of the words "for which property rights are recognized" does not make the paragraph POV (lacking the neutral point of view). Only if some definitions from some reliable sources were systematically ignored, the neutrality could be lacking. --Edcolins (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Criticism: The term itself

This section contains very short summaries of the criticisms about this term made by two prominent critics of US copyright/patent law, Stallman and Lessig. An editor has recently tried to add a large essay rebutting Lessig's point, which is that intellectual works are fundamentally different from property as we normally think of it. (I don't know that Lessig has ever criticized this term, so it's possible that this item shouldn't even be in this section at all.) I would like to discuss this added text. First, this rebuttal is huge. We probably don't need 1/3 of the article devoted to a rebuttal to Lessig's point. See WP:UNDUE. There may be more room for this kind of discussion at Criticism of intellectual property. Second, a lot of it does not even rebut the point here. It may be a rebuttal to Lessig's overall point, that copyrights in the US go to far, but it is not a rebuttal to the point that the term "intellectual property" is problematic. AFAIK, Lessig is not saying that copyrights are not treated like property; he's saying they should not be treated like property. A rebuttal claiming that they are treated by property by the courts is non sequitur. Third, the entire essay is unsourced. A lot of claims are made about how the US court system works, what the driving factors are in the US' dominance of the high-tech industry, etc, etc, but there are no references to back up these statements. Finally, the rebuttal is placed before the text that it seems to rebut, the flow is very confusing. I'd move it, but this would only fix the least of the problems. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 22:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion of the passage in the state it was in; as written, it was entirely a WP:OR essay. I do not in principle have any objection to including a discussion of the purported controversy of the term, if it's well-sourced and not OR. TJRC (talk) 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)