Talk:Thrash metal

Before you jump to conclusions

Be sure to read all the related articles such as the speed metal, groove metal, and other related sections to find out more about the subject than just blindly inserting your two cents worth. Remember too, that claiming to be a fan of a certain genre does not automatically make you an expert on the subject, so the lesson is read up first. Subphreeky

I wrote most of this stuff. Anthrax kinda slipped my mind (Overkill basically gave them their start in the NY scene around '81-83), and Suicidal weren't all THAT important. Maybe a sentence about them, DRI, Corrosion of Conformity, etc, as the crossover subgenre? If anyone would like to dispute factual correctness (as opposed to omissions and mis-emphasis), let me know.

        Mhhh... JERK, maybe actually cram something into that swollen head of yours about music!

thrash metal is not influenced by punk and i believe many would agree with me on here. Lue3378 05:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, punk has almost if not anything to do thrash.

This is really incredibly inaccurate. I'll fix it later if nobody else feels like it. --Lezek

Yeah, please do. I have always heard the four thrash metal pioneers were Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax. Suicidal tendencies (that would make it 5 btw)? I mean pff..

I've heard about the classic triads of Thrash Metal, Bay Area (Metallica, Megadeth, Testament?), US - non Bay Area - (Slayer, Anthrax, ?) and Germany (Kreator, Sodom, Destruction), maybe they should be considered somehow. (no time to properly edit the article no, maybe later). Valhalla 09:23 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Testament is seminal but

I don't remember Testament ever being bigger than Slayer. Slayer had like 3 albums already before Testament put out their first one in 1987. Reign in Blood came out in 1986.

Testament WASN'T bigger than Slayer. As stated previously, The Legacy wasn't released until 1987. In fact, they were considered one of the more popular second wave of thrash bands. Yes, they did play on the Clash of the Titans tour in the later part of the decade with Slayer, Megadeth and Anthrax (Suicidal replaced Anthrax on the Euro leg of this tour), but that was mainly due to the fact that Metallica were already selling out arenas at the time. I've been a thrash fan since the start of the scene and this is how it was. I certainly hope revisionists don't include Testament as one of these seminal groups. Slayer was one of the best selling thrash acts out there and Reign in Blood cemented their popularity at the time. Globey 08:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm... I don't think you have to put out an album to be popular. Anyway I've heard that quite a lot about Testament being in the Big Four. In regards to Valhala, I've always heard about the big four: Anthrax, Megadeth, Metallica, and Slayer, and the big triad of Teutonic thrash: Destruction, Kreator, and Sodom. Subphreeky

True, you don't have to have albums out to be popular. Perhaps Slayer wasn't considered thrash yet at that time? I am from the San Francisco area, but did not turn onto thrash until about 1984, when I was in the Navy, and ironically, a guy from Michigan turned me onto Metallica while we were stationed together in the Chicago area. Anyway, I got out of the Navy in 1986, and was a big thrash fan at age 22, and returned to the Bay Area. I remain unconvinced about the notion of Slayer "replacing" Testament. But, maybe I am remembering the scene wrong, who knows.

Neanderthalprimadonna 12:13, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nice summary, but where's Venom? I've never heard Priest referred to as Speed Metal though and the band would likely agree. They are the definition of Heavy Metal. Speed Metal to me has always been a genre name searching for a home. Even Wikipedia just redirects Speed Metal back to Thrash Metal. The big 4 were always Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth and (unfortunately) Anthrax. The only band close enough to being in this circle was Exodus, who actually play a much more pioneering role in the genre than this article indicates. They certainly weren't influenced by Slayer's Haunting EP. Bonded was already written and recorded by the time Haunting came out.

Judas Priest not speed metal? Maybe on their earlier stuff, but Painkiller was DEFINITELY speed metal. --Eel 02:12, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Judas Priest concerned Heavy Metal more than anything else? Shandolad 13:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lars in Metal Church? I had no idea, but thankfully that didn't happen. Kirk Arrington's drumming on the first MC record was killer.

Lars in Metal Church (or being asked to join or whatever) is a funny thing. There's no mention of it whatsoever in any official or unofficial Metallica history and the main source appears to be Metal Church itself. Anything's possible, I suppose, but why such an event (regardless of how small) wouldn't have shown up in any Metallica interviews over the years makes the whole thing a bit suspicious to the point of being myth. Still, I'd love to hear more from Vanderhoof about why it's part of Metal Church's history.

Pillsbur 00:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

This is all quite interesting. In regards to the classifications of speed and thrash metal, these genre names were for the most part used interchangably during the 1980's and such. Metallica of course refered to themselves as power metal, as did Venom, mainly to differentiate themselves from the hair metal scene that was taking over heavy metal. Even Kreator called themselves 'Hate Metal.' There is of course much debate over the popularity of thrash bands. One thing I think can be agreed upon is that the big four of thrash are: Anthrax (yes somewhat unfortunately), Megadeth, Metallica, and Slayer. The big triad of Teutonic thrash I hope is agreed upon is: Destruction, Kreator, and Sodom. The other three bands; Exodus, Overkill, and Testament (which round out to a big ten of thrash metal) are being much debated to most popular and their places in the original big four of thrash. My findings indicate numerous sources stating that Testament was in the big four before Slayer released Reign In Blood, but who knows, obviously the arguement of Slayer's album coming out first makes sense. I think there should be a little more added to this article, such as Anthrax, some various other influential thrash bands, and indeed the controvertial issue we are discussing. Subphreeky

Another point to bring out is that Anthrax's Among The Living was not released until 1987 either. And in 1987 Testament already had a live album, almost immediately following their debut. Subphreeky

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out Testament's live album. They "already" had a live album following their debut makes it sound like that proves Testament's superiority. Testament probably had a live album out after their debut simply because their record company needed something to sell while the band was writing new tunes. Didn't Slayer also have a live EP between their first two studio albums? I'm not trying to argue, just curious about why live albums seem so important. Pillsbur 23:26, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

My point is that they were an already established live act. I don't know about Slayer's live album, but that would go along the same point. Anyways, the main issue I was talking about was Testament being part of the big-four before the release of Slayers 1986 Reign In Blood. The scene was not how we see it today. I really have no idea why bands like Suicidal Tendencies keep poping up here. Subphreeky May 14, 2005

Pantera

Why isn't Pantera on the list? I've always considered them as one of the big four (instead of Anthrax)

Pantera's too new to be part of the big four. Or well, their first 3 albums weren't thrash. POINT IS, Pantera, while great, wasn't in the thrash scene early enough to be part of the big four.

Pantera were never thrash. Listen to Cowboys... and Vulgar... and then listen to Bonded By Blood. After that, you can't tell me Pantera were thrash. It's like calling Limp Bizkit black metal - totally wrong.

I think its also worth mentioning some other less noted, but equally important thrash bands from the second wave that strove to new heights of musicianship. Anacrusis and WatchTower are 2 that come to mind - both pioneers in their own way of the prog/thrash scene (thus 'technical thrash' was born).

If you listen to Cowboys From Hell, there most definately thrash elements throughout, but to call them a full-on thrash metal would be inaccurate. I've always considered them to be half-thrash, half-groove. On another note, Machine Head I think fits in the same category as Pantera, but their new record, Through The Ashes Of Empires, is almost pure, modern day thrash.

Pantera are not thrash! Theyre kinda power metal. As thrash and speed metal being the same that comment was writtne by someone who has never listened to Thrash in their life. -- Pantera isn't Thrash, they were Power metal prior to the Cowboys from hell album at which point they were half-thrash/groove metal.

The Sidebar

Shouldn't the contents on the sidebar be changed to reflect the page, be titled Thrash Metal and contain links to subgenres of Thrash Metal etc? Hm, perhaps not, but I can't help but thinking that an addition of a new sidebar which contained subgenres of Thrash and also told that Thrash was subgenre of Heavy metal would be better.Shandolad 13:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Truth and Theory Of Pantera being Power Metal

OKAY, I will say this. Pantera has A LOT more elements of thrash than Power Metal. In fact, they have NO Power Metal elements in their music. Pantera is a post-thrash metal band. Post-thrash (the way I see it) is really thrash metal played heavier. Since Thrash metal is punk-influenced metal, Pantera is basically just Thrash Metal turned up a notch. I personally feel that (now this is just a theory) Half-Thrash metal is Thrash without a punk influence, BUT with a hardcore-punk influence in the music and with I guess you could say a blues-ish undertone with the scaling with solos.

The closest influences Pantera has to Power Metal are minimal, BUT it would be the vocal style in Cowboys In Hell, in particular, Cematary Gates. If you look at the subgenre heavy metal often from what I have heard tends to be a little bluesie you could say, which is why I believe that Half-Thrash/Groove/Post-Thrash has the blues influence, also meaning that this genre of music has a Heavy Metal mixed with Thrash Metal and Hardcore influences. Like I said, it's JUST a theory, but as for saying that Pantera is power metal. ALL WRONG, but yet, I can see where people would say that.

- Ryan F.

I agree with this comment. Techno Thrash, Progressive Thrash, Whatever-You'd-Call-Thrash-That-Leans-Toward-Death, Teutonic (Destruction, Sodom, Kreator), British (Acid Reign, etc.), Bay Area vs. other places. The genre is full of subgenre's, and there's plenty of room for pages detailing them. Hah, and plenty of time for arguing who goes where and what gets included.

Proposed Merge With Speed Metal

I think since Thrash and Speed Metal are one and the same thing, they should be merged. Any suggestions regarding this are welcome

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. I think of thrash as a subgenre of speed metal. For EXAMPLE, Judas priest's Painkiller is definitely speed metal, but it's certainly not thrash. --Eel 05:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree with Eel. Thrash and speed are not the same. It is a common misconception that many metal fans have. Following Eel's decision to provide an example, Bulldozer and Helloween (Helloween EP/Walls of Jericho) are both speed metal however they are not thrash. Pasajero 20:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Strong disagree. Merging these two categories is insane. Speed Metal is a lot different than Thrash Metal. Thrash Metal is repetitive by definition, the speed is an element, but not important as in Speed Metal. Speed Metal can be symphonic too (see Rhapsody band) but Thrash not. --Olpus

The proposed merge with speed metal should not go ahead. The two are independent, because as it has been mentioned above, a song can be a speed metal song but not a thrash metal song. JohnC1987 16:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a MAJOR difference between speed and thrash metal. I mean it would be closer to merge black and speed metal than speed and thrash metal (compare Venom's "Black Metal" and Slayer's "Reign In Blood" quite similar). Certainly there are similarities, however, Slayer, being the definitive speed metal band sounds VERY different from Metallica the prototypical thrash band. --69.231.192.87 07:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Manuel Trejo 1/6/06 11:44 pm PST[reply]

Speed/Thrash and Pantera

First of all, Speed Metal and Thrash Metal I don't think are the same thing. If they were, they would have a proper name for it. Thrash Metal consists of more punchy riffs and is more rhythmic sounding than Speed Metal. That's how I see it anyway.

Pantera are NOT power metal. If you listen to power metal, the singers usually have different kinds of voices. Phil Anselmo does NOT have a power metal voice, and Dimebag Darrell does NOT write power metal riffs (listen to "Fucking Hostile", you'll know what I mean).

Let me bring it to everyone's attention that at one time the speed and thrash articles were the same. This was discussed and it was concluded that speed and thrash are not the same. It is for this very reason that speed metal and thrash metal are now separate articles. Pasajero 12:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if your aware of this but Pantera released an power metal album called Power Metal and Cowboys from Hell still had some power metal influences. As for your saying Phil Anselmo doesn't have a power metal voice, I suggest you liten to Cemetary Gates, if I remember correctly there's an almost obnoxiously high 'gates'. Kravitch

Power metal my ass. It wasn't even a power metal album to begin with. Power Metal was the name of the album which was just glam rock. Though it has been said that Pantera did inspire Power metal by the name of the album. ALSO Since when does power metal have a thrash vocal. Just because Phil (at the time) was able to since Falseto does not mean he is power metal. Look at King Diamond for example, he sings in falseto, BUT his band is not power metal either. -Ryan F.

I have heard Cemetary Gates, but I still don't think he has that Power Metal voice. I don't disagree with you entirely but I just think Phil doesn't use a power metal voice as much. I also agree with you, about the Power Metal album and their influences. I suppose it's still just personal opinion.

Most of you guys must not know that one Pantera's biggest influences is KISS. Which is not thrash.

That's a good point, but it doesn't mean Pantera isn't thrash. I mean, the dead kennedys and minor threat (both punk bands) influenced slayer, but slayer's not punk. --Eel 05:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speed/thrash

I see everyone has said that "Painkiller" is speed metal. But when was painkiller put out? Think about that!!! We can talk about thrash since the very beggining of the 80's and about "speed" since the very beggining of the 90's. I think "Speed Metal" is fiction and that the great "painkiller" is just heavy metal. Saying that something is "speed metal" is stupid, as it is more than just "a name searching for a home"........it is inexistent.

No one ever said speed metal came out in the beginning of the 90s. You just assumed that since everyone used "Painkiller" as an example. The reason why they used it as an example is because it is considered one of Priest's best speed albums and is a very popular one at that. Speed metal had already been formed in the late 70s. "Stained Class" and "Hell Bent for Leather" come to mind both which came out in 1978. The first thrash demo was in 1981 (Red Skies demo; no vocals though), the second being Metallica's Hit the Lights. 78 (speed) < 81 (thrash) Pasajero 17:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, as for speed metal being just heavy metal, that's kind of like saying thrash metal is just speed metal. The way I see it, Speed Metal is a certain type of Heavy Metal (For example, electric wizard is definitely (very) heavy metal, but there's NO way ANYONE would call them speed metal.), and Thrash Metal is a certain type of Speed Metal. (also just because i love venom i wanna mention that venom's welcome to hell was another of the first thrash metal albums, and it was also from 1981.) --Eel 02:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to note that Electric Wizard is considered to be just about the heaviest, slowest doom metal out there, and not usually classified as "heavy metal". From what I understand, "heavy metal" is mostly used to group in the NWOBHM and a few earlier bands, including Black Sabbath. I agree with you entirely that speed metal is another genre of metal entirely from thrash. From what I understand, it existed as a separate strand of metal and mostly developed earlier on than thrash. Thrash is a product of NWOBHM and other earlier metal, mixed with punk rock. Guys from Anthrax, Metallica, and Slayer have been saying this all along.

Conflicting information

The first section ends with a mention of Artillery's We Are The Dead being from 1982. The second section mentions it as being 1985. First off, which is correct? Secondly, should it be mentioned twice anyway? I think the whole article needs a tidy and restructure as there is a lot of repetition, definitely some POV (some of which I agree with, but hey!) and there's quite a scattered approach to dates etc. IainP (talk) 09:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The correct year for the mentioned Artillery demo is 1983. Pasajero 00:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I've updated the page to reflect this. IainP (talk) 14:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Following the Artillery page to their record label web site, I found that Artillery was formed in 1982 and that the first two demos, Shellshock and Deeds of Darkness, were RELEASED in 1984 so clarification needs to be made there as well as the Artillery page. Subphreeky

Celtic Frost?

I've only heard a few of their songs, so I'm not qualified enough to remove them from the list, but are Celtic Frost really thrash? The few I've heard don't sound like it. 72.40.101.236 16:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I have to say I agree, what few songs I have heard of Celtic Frost I would not classify as thrash metal. Although I am not completely qualified either. Someone who knows more about them should clarify Subphreeky

CELTIC FROST, VOIVOD, AND DESTRUCTION

Thrash also included Celtic Frost "Morbid Tales", Voivod "War and Pain" and Destruction "Infernal Overkill" and were primary inventors of the art form as much as anyone.

Album Cover Pictures

I don't think that the album cover pictures should feature two Metallica, one Slayer, and one Sepultra... As the big four, or Four Horsemen (of Thrash Metal), are widely acknowleged to be: MegadetH, Metallica, Slayer, and Anthrax; there should be an album covershot of each. Rust In Peace

Thrash or Trash?

Why do you write Trash with an ache after the T of it? Stephan KŒNIG 09:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

merge groove metal

Groove metal does not need an article by itself (yet) as it is a minor subgenre still and only in minor issues different from thrash. Spearhead 20:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. It definitely deserves mention, but is a stylitic difference and not a large subgenre. +Johnson 20:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dissagre. Groove Metal isn't Thrash so it doesn't fit in this category. This is a mistake a lot of people tend to make but Groove Metal is not Thrash Metal, if you listen to albums like Pantera's Vulguar Display of Power vs albums like Kreator's Pleasure to Kill or Dark Angel's Darkness Descends, to make that association just doesn't work. Damage Plan's albums are a far cry from Thrash as well, Thrash and Groove Metal are very distinct from each other, Thrash is riff oriented fast music that has a distinct recognizable sound, it's like making an association that Speed Metal and Thrash Metal are the same when they aren't, it's like saying Judas Priest is a Thrash Metal band, it doesn't work. I dissagre with the idea of merging the two topics, Groove Metal is HALF Thrash, it is NOT Thrash, go and listen to Machine Head a groove band and listen to Vio-lence and you can see the differences between the two and you can tell the distinction between the two genres. So I don't like the idea, Groove Metal might be a result from Thrash Metal but that doesn't mean that it is, it's like saying we should merge Thrash Metal with NWOBHM because it was influenced by that genre of music. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neuro perplexion (talk • contribs) .

Touché +Johnson 07:08, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]