Talk:Super Dimension Fortress Macross

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I notice that in the timeline of series the article doesn't make any mention of the games, but most Macross afficionados seem to consider Macross VF-X 1 and 2, and M3 a part of the continuity... --Neko Ewen 15:01, 6 July 2005

The Super Dimension Fortress Macross is official full title of this series. Please see all the related official releases by Big West. -Egan Loo 16:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't find this a very convicing argument, what Big West might or might not say is official has little bearing on what the english title should be for the wikipedia article, and hey, they aren't even consistent: http://www.macross.co.jp/macross/english/title1_e.html for instance. --zippedmartin 04:37, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that this series has had several variations on secondary material (such as the website listed above), but on all official Big West releases of the animation series itself, there has been only one: The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. It is also what is on the official English release, not incidentally. --Egan Loo 05:04, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

's funny, I swear the version I saw was 'Super Dimensional Fortress Macross', and checking with the AnimEigo site: http://www.animeigo.com/Products/MACROSS.t it seems they think the same. As this is the first full english release, and I think the title most widely used by fans, seems more appropriate. Feel free to actually provide some evidence for your point of view rather than just making idle statements. --zippedmartin 19:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

* The cited page's spelling needs to be updated. (It probably won't happen soon since AnimEigo discontinued the product. I can ask Robert Woodhead to update it though.) The correct title that is on the actual DVD release itself and in the liner notes is below:

http://www.animeigo.com/Liner/MACROSS.t

By the way, I worked on the AnimEigo DVD release.

* In addition to the first series, several other titles in the Macross line also have this full title:

http://www.macross.co.jp/

http://product.bandaivisual.co.jp/web_service/shop_product_big_image.asp?item_no=BCBA-0238

http://product.bandaivisual.co.jp/web_service/shop_product_big_image.asp?item_no=BES-0649

http://product.bandaivisual.co.jp/web_service/shop_product_big_image.asp?item_no=BCDR-0256

http://www.bandaigames.channel.or.jp/list/macross/

http://www.bothtec.co.jp/game/mac_xp/

* I am a proponent of official titles taking precedence over fan usage. Still, in terms of fan usage, here is a comparison of Google results between the official title and the deprecated title:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22The+Super+Dimension+Fortress+Macross%22&word2=%22Super+Dimensional+Fortress+Macross%22

--Egan Loo 20:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There you go, wasn't that hard was it. I've gotta say that the only link I think's actually relevant is the animeigo one, any .co.jp site can have whatever as english title, visitors will be reading the japanese - and all the covers you posted were for later products, not this series. Google was fun, but not much of an indicator with numbers that small though, seems SDF Macross gets about the same (could probably do with a redirect from there). Anyway, if eigo did use your title and I'm misremembering, fine. --zippedmartin 12:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

* The product website links were a direct response to your unnecessary request for "evidence" when the earlier response already pointed out the physical English and Japanese product releases themselves -- product releases which should take precedence over website pages in any case.

* Bandai Visual no longer sells the first Macross series on home video, but if you're willing to look at website links in lieu of the actual product, here are (rather fuzzy) images showing the official title on this series as well.

http://bag02pr000.ac.yahoo.co.jp/users/9/3/5/1/onyanko_house1-imgbatch_1111807448/600x450-2005032600038.jpg

http://img36.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/0/6/3/0/hhdeki-img600x450-1087172622dscf0503.jpg

http://img161.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/7/1/4/6/nikosuzz-img600x451-1113369892mac.jpg

http://img161.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/7/1/4/6/nikosuzz-img600x451-1113369900mac2.jpg

http://img161.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/7/1/4/6/nikosuzz-img600x451-1113369904mac3.jpg

* The Google results link was a direct response to your ungrounded supposition that the deprecated title is the one "most widely used by fans."

Please do not make suppositions and requests for "evidence" when the citations were already given, and then dismiss direct response to your suppositions and requests as irrelevant. --Egan Loo 18:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself very clear. I don't think a romanised title for domestic japanese release should nessersarily be considered as the 'absolute' english title, they often take artistic liberties/make bad translations. But, as I said, if animegio used that title, fine. I only raised the issue as I thought I remembered the other one in the video and your tone in the top post was quite so rigid. You're obviously pretty fanatical about this issue, do you mind expanding on what you mean by 'deprecated'? I'm curious whether there's some history here. A mention of all the legal wranglings over rights to Macross in the article might be worthwhile too.

--zippedmartin 20:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I saw this series in Japanese without English subtitles. The title was Super Dimension Fortress Macross in English. The alteration of "dimension" (jikuu, a noun) into "dimensional" is fan revisionism. However, I should add that the addition of "the" at the beginning of the "official" title is also revisionism. There was no "the" in the original title as aired, and it should not be added now any more than Batman should become The Batman. -NNNS

The beginning "The" article is not revisionism, because it's written that way in the early Japanese material — see the links above to some of the early material. Ironically, it's the other way around — the dropping of "The" came about after the series was adapted outside Japan. As a further irony, "The Batman" was the original name in his 1939 debut. It was only later that "The" was dropped from the name, and the current animated series is actually paying homage to his original name by using "The Batman."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Detective27.JPG

Egan Loo 23:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of the cases where the Romanized and translated name for domestic Japanese release does not take artistic liberties or make bad translations. This is similar to how Mobile Suit Gundam almost consistently and reasonably Romanized the names Char and Zaku in Japan, but the novels were initially published in English with Char and Zaku as "Sha" and "Zak." (Creator Yoshiyuki Tomino based Char's name on a singer in France, where "ch" can be pronounced with the "sh-" consonant sound.) Fortunately, the recent reissue of the English novel translation restored the original Char and Zaku spellings. (This is no slight against Frederik Schodt, who is a remarkably talented translator.)

The deprecated title was popularized by Harmony Gold, particularly through its Robotech adaptation based roughly on Tatsunoko scripts. This was also the origin of the "reflex" (for reaction) and "third lieutenant" (for second lieutenant) inconsistencies. It is actually not directly related to the Big West/Tatsunoko legal dispute, but having these two companies on non-speaking terms probably didn't help on this and other matters.

I think one reason the legal dispute has not been expanded upon in this article is that it is still contentious, despite the two rulings that have already been brought down. I agree that anyone who can write a non-biased account of the legal situation deserves all due props.

If you feel my responses here were irrational or extreme (which are part of the definition of "fanatical"), please point out the specific quote. My responses here were graduated, providing more and more citations when the initial citations were being requested and then repeatedly dismissed without due cause. --Egan Loo 21:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I was happy as soon as you gave the alternative animego page, rather than just saying 'see big west releases', for reasons stated already. The 'fanatical' bit was just in relation to the systematic way you've enforced the name change across various Macross pages, and absolutism of your responses, not 'irrational' just... 'enthusiatic'. Won't respond further to the various points here, we've gone far enough right on this page already, but I do think some of this should perhaps be incorperated into the article itself. I was surprsied by the redirect and terse statement on the talkpage... but I guess future visitors will have plenty of spiel to read here now. --zippedmartin 01:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology

Macross Zero is the prequel to SDF Macross, and it takes place a year before the events that SDF Macross is about, the Space War I. Like 5 minutes of the 1st episode take place in 1999. Macross Zero takes place in 2008, and SDF Macross starts in 2009. Yes, the ship crashed in 1999, but the show is not about the ship crashing, it is about Space War I which starts in 2009. Preacher King of Mao 23:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Macross Zero takes place one year before Space War I, but the first Macross series starts ten years before Space War I. Unlike Macross Zero, Macross Plus, or Macross 7, the first minutes of the first Macross series are shown not as a retrospective, but "in the moment," as it were.

• Macross Zero does not use the word "prequel" in the Japanese release or marketing.

• The first Macross series is about more than Space War I. Space War I takes place within the span of just twelve months (February 2009-February 2010). The first Macross series doesn't even end until 2012, a full two years after Space War I ended. In all, its story extends almost thirteen years.

Egan Loo 01:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at the first episode of SDF Macross. They have the ship crashing. THen it's like, "Ten years have passed" And you see the dates go up to 2009. Then the opening theme song plays. Literally, less than 5 minutes takes place before 2009. Preacher King of Mao 01:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see this http://www.macross.co.jp/macross/english/title1_e.html Preacher King of Mao 01:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The point that the first shot — no matter how brief — does take place well before Space War I and is not shown in retrospective but "in the moment," is the very reason that the first Macross series begins in 1999. Unfortunately, the website you cite, despite being official, has several mistakes in this introduction section — not the least of which are the dates. Notice that it lists the Do You Remember the Love? (sic) movie as taking place in 2001:

http://www.macross.co.jp/macross/english/title2_e.html

http://www.macross.co.jp/macross/title2.html

Fortunately, the actual first Macross series itself and Bandai Visual's Macross: A Future Chronicle video documentary says it starts in 1999. Egan Loo 02:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup?

"Macross is widely considered a classic". By whom? Citations on this and other similar commentary would help. 24.155.88.186 23:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]