Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal

I've started this project on Heavy metal music and it's sub-genres, to improve the standards of these existing articles and create missing articles. Join the Project by signing your name in the Participant's list.

New Rock Star 16:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good job on creating this, I've seen several articles that really need the attention of knowledgeable metal fans. I'll help where I can. AidanPryde 19:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edward the Great

The Edward the Great article under the To Do list allready exists. Should it be removed or moved to a done title? Absolute Zero 22:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Need to fix the link in the Iron Maiden (band) article. I'll remove the article from the to do list.

N R S^{(talk to me,mail me or award me a barnstar)} 04:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some work done

Found the two missing Dokken album photos Also, I have done a substantial amount of work on the Chuck Schuldiner page.

--Johnson542 09:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

more work done

i did the article on les binks former drummer of judas priest * Halifax_corey (talk · contribs)

Still Hungry

The Still Hungry ? article is not created. This article is of some other band. I have moved the article to the create list.

Metal Thunder मेटल थणडर|(Talk) 09:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Heavy Metal Music Image (Metal sign)

http:/upwiki/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Metalsign.jpg/50px-Metalsign.jpg

The metal salute (sign) is done with the index finger and pinky NOT index, pinky, and thumb. That image should be replaced with a correct one. Pasajero 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I made a new one. I think it looks a little goofy, but at least its correct. What do you guys think? +Johnson 20:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the first one. The original image is also not in violation of copyright. It should simply be made clear that variations are used, some people using their thumb (as i do) and some not (as per Pasajero), which means using both images. Ley Shade 21:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to say that I've been to quite a few metal concerts, and I have never once seen anyone use their thumb. I don't know if you could accept that as a variation, it is just an improper use of the horns. See Devil horns and this. Also, I would like to know how the new image is in violation of copyright, since I made the image. +Johnson 14:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People do whats comfortable. Putting my thumb in my palm often causes me muscual pain, some people just dislike it, and others have their own reasons. Also, the only thing i know about the copyright is the mumo-jumbo u have to do about listing the picture and stuff, thats what i was getting at. Oh, and the new one looks like yew broke your thumb.

The "copyright mumo-jumbo" is listed at the image page, as per policy. I think it can be recognized that the standard/style of the majority (not variations done by a few people) is as pictured in the new image. And yes, I have broken and jammed my thumb plenty of times. I think it would be appropriate to keep the new picture (or someone else doing the same exact horns) and then use your idea: "It should simply be made clear that variations are used, some people using their thumb" and this is made clear in Devil horns, even though it is not listed as a variation (See the variation section of Devil horns, it can be pointed out. At the same time other variations include things such as "too much metal for one hand" (putting the two fists next to eachother and extending the pinkys), so out of simplicity for the group image for the template I feel that this new picture should be kept. It only makes sense, since this is the way that most people do it. This is the way it was first done, and is the most popular method. +Johnson 20:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest holding a straw poll for a week, with the options of:

Picture A) Thumballena
Picture B) Jammed And Broken
Picture C) To Much Steering Wheel For Me
Picture D) This Picture Doesnt Exist

Should work to find an answer well enough. Ley Shade 21:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever makes Leyasu happy. +Johnson 01:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Heavy Metal notice

Hi all. I wanted to ask, what is the "WikiProject Heavy Metal notice" for exactly? Does it have to be on every heavy metal music related article? Also, I just created the pages for Malmonde (a french electro-industrial-death metal band) and Axel Rudi Pell. I was very surprised to find that the latter wasn't already there. It would need a bit of expanding though, and I didn't know if I should create two pages, one for the musician, and one for the band... Sounds a bit too much so I just made one. Also, the stub on André Matos should be expanded, after all, he is quite an influencial and famous vocalist (Viper, Angra, Shaaman). When I get time I'll start a page for Mike Terrana (Rage, Yngwie J. Malmsteen, Axel Rudi Pell, Metalium, Squealer...). Cheers --IronChris 18:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:NOT for rules on what not to do, such as coining new terms (Ie: Cyber Metal). Also please see WP:NPOV. Anything yew do not feel conficant doing yourself, please list on the to do page. Ley Shade 19:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK.... Thanks a bunch for the encouragement here. I feel quite at home now (NOT). Could you tell me why you directed me to the NPOV page? I wasn't aware that either my entries (Malmonde and Axel Rudi Pell) featured POV. And I did feel confident about doing it, which doesn't mean that I couldn't use some advice. But I'm guessing this wasn't the place to ask. --IronChris 20:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise if i came across in a hostile manner, as that wasnt my intention. Your work was good by creating articles that needed creating. I dont think you put POV in your article on Malmonde intentionaly, sometimes just a simple choice of word can be seen as POV when read by someone else, a trap ive fallen into many times.

The reason i sent yew to WP:NPOV was simply so you could see examples and use it as a fallback guide if you needed to. I also sent you to WP:NOT so you could see your mistake with the Cyber Metal incident, which is now all good.

As for being confidant in doing something, there is somethings im not clued up on when it comes to them, so i list them here to do. I then take over doing the jobs on articles of which subjects im proficient in. That is what i meant.

More so, welcome to the Wikiproject. Ley Shade 20:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks for the advice then. And thanks for the improvements on the Malmonde page, I realise my mistakes. Good day to you! --IronChris 21:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Erm... my question remains however, where is the "WikiProject Heavy Metal notice" supposed to go? It's not very clear to me, is it just for articles initiated by members of WikiProject Metal, or does it have to be placed on the talk page of every Heavy Metal group article? --IronChris 23:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The notice goes at the top of discussion pages of Wikiproject Metal current projects. You can always add a wiki to the "to do" list and then add the notice to the discussion page, if you like. This project is all about expanding metal, so feel free to discuss in here if you are not sure about anything. You can also contact me if you need help on my userpage. Don't let criticism get you down, for as many users that disagree with you there will be just as many agreeing with you. We need as much help as we can get. +Johnson 23:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of heavy metal bands clean up?

The List of heavy metal bands is in dire need of a clean up. As Fuzzypeg states on the talk page, "many of these band names are wikified, but the wikilinks take you to the wrong place" and many bands in the list don't have an article, some of them probably shouldn't be there anyway (no discography, etc.). It also needs a better lay out, maybe a similar one to the artist list on the industrial metal page could be used, it's very neat; apparently it's used extensively on the german wikipedia. I think it's an important page, and should be brought up to Wikipedia standards (which it certainly doesn't reach in its present state). What do you think should be done? --IronChris 02:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lets just start working. We should make articles for confirmed metal bands that come up as reds on the list, remove non-metal bands, and clean up links. I'll make it an official WikiProject Metal project. +Johnson 04:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have already done a lot of work on creating articles for death metal and doom metal bands and albums and I will go on. Natheless I agree with most of the above. Other List of * metal bands could use some work as well. Spearhead 10:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Subgenres & Styles

I do not know about anybody else but I find the list of metal subgenres to be rather messy and unhelpful. The infobox in the main Heavy Metal article lists 13 subgenres of metal and 10 fusion genres. Browsing around, however, would lead one to encounter other infobox that expands the list to include such entries as "melodic death metal" and "blackened death metal" (shouldn't they be covered under death metal itself?) as well as other entries such as Celtic metal and Oriental metal. On the Folk Metal article, someone has even listed a genre known as Pirate Metal.

My objection here is that there are really only a handful of metal subgenres and yet by browsing through wikipedia, one might get the impression that there are more than thirty different metal subgenres. As it is now, I see six different concepts that are being grouped together under the umbrella term of subgenre.

Group 1: The primary style in which the vocals, guitars, drums and bass are being played. Black. Death. Power. Thrash. Doom. Glam (or Pop). Classic. These are metal subgenres that stand alone.

Group 2: The secondary style that is layered on top, over or fused with the primary style. Gothic. Folk. Progressive. None of these subgenres stand alone. A band combines the stylistic elements of folk music, gothic ethos or progressive aspirations with their primary genre - death, doom, power, etc.

Group 3: The manner or approach in which the above groups are brought about. Symphonic. Avant-garde. Neo-classical. Tech (or Math). Speed. These are not subgenres of metal but rather a stylistic preference amongst a diverse array of bands from different subgenres. Some fans who are drawn to a particular stylistic preference might have a desire to label it as a subgenre. You can find bands in the power, black and gothic subgenres using a symphonic approach. You can find bands in the black, gothic or doom subgenres using an avant-garde approach. You can find bands in the power, death or progressive genres using a tech approach. An analogy would be the choice of a first person, second person or third person narrative or approach in a book. I find such terms as Dark Metal and Extreme Metal to be rather redundant but if people insist, they can fit into this group too.

Group 4: Fusion with music outside the family of metal. Funk. Industrial. Grindcore. Alternative. Etc.

Group 5: Regional scenes that develop a particular style unto their own. Gothenburg, NWOBHM, Bay Area, Florida. I believe Oriental metal comes under this group as well.

Group 6: Distinction arising from non-musical consideration. Christian metal. Viking metal. And if someone really wants it, pirate metal.

I believe it would be more sensible to distinguish the above groups from one another as follows. I am referring particularly to the infobox.

Subgenres: Group 1 & 2

Fusion genres: Group 4

Common Stylistic Approaches: Group 3

Regional Scenes: Group 5

Lyrical Themes & Images: Group 6.

This is merely a suggestion to clean up something that I personally find to be rather messy and muddy. I will leave it to you lot in the project team to discuss the merits and lack of with regards to my proposal. Cheers. --Anarchodin 10:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its already noted to be cleaned up. Also, most of what you said is only half right. Progressive Metal and Gothic Metal are stand alone genres, they do not fuse anything with anything else, except for minor attributes.

For the complete list of Heavy Metal genres, see this article. Also realise that the reason the Heavy Metal template lists only certain genres, is because i removed the ones that do not have any direct connection to the original Heavy Metal style.

Also note, if yew see any non-existant rubbish in infoboxes, like Pirate Metal, you can just delete them and let the project know. I recently had to do this with a host of genres, including Circus Metal, Extreme Goth Metal, and Ghost Metal. Ley Shade 12:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I've noted elsewhere on WP today, "the battle to avoid over-categorisation in music has been lost." Categorising is important, but inherently subjective. This community needs to be inclusive, for example: "pirate metal" gets 13,000 hits on google (11,600 for "pirate metal" +music) - niche, certainly but not non-existent - so if someone wants to create an article about it that's fine by me. If that article is informative and defines what is different about the topic, let's see some bluelinks and list entries. On the other hand, Ghost metal fails the google test and needs to WP:CHILL. Circus metal falls somewhere in between. But ultimately, excluding such things from info-boxes and lists should be done with consensus, not because anyone regards themselves as an authority on what does and doesn't exist, and what does and doesn't qualify as metal. And that's coming from a card-carrying deletionist. Wikipedia works on consensus (WP:CON) especially to avoid edit warring and POV. Involvement in a Wikiproject should be done in accordance with the house rules.

I've spent some time editing the Stoner rock / metal article, which Leyasu / Ley Shade does not deem suitable for inclusion on heavy metal lists and templates. That's being discussed on a different page, and my intended involvement in this project goes a lot deeper than stoner metal, but it's another case in point. Stoner metal gets over 370,000 googles so dismissing it as a made-up genre doesn't cut it. The only claim that can really be made is that you don't regard it as "true metal" - fine as an opinion but it becomes POV when you start deleting references to it as a sub-genre of metal without consensus. Wikipedia is never going to be the last bastion of true metal and trying to exclude styles or labels you don't agree with is a losing battle. Every genre was "made-up" once but this 2006, the face of what is considered "metal" might have changed, and we need to deal with that. I'm as much a fan of the "true metal" genres as anyone, and I hope to concentrate on encylopedia-building and getting people involved, rather than the minutiae of labelling. Deizio 13:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

first of all there is a whole load of metal genre related articles on WP, most of which are crap. Many POV and narrowminded if they are not mere stubs.

What we needs is guidelines for genre inclusion (see also WP:MUS and the talk page). Further we need to fix the list of actual heavy metal (sub-)genres in the list of heavy metal genres and get a consensus really that this is it. From thereon we can start fixing the actual genre articles, deleting with this consesus in mind all sub-genre articles, merging them where necessary.

One point is that I don't believe that the distinction above is going to work. Most genres grow from other genres and taking incluences from various (sometimes obscure) sources. Imo, although it is a bit subjective (or vague) is that a genre should stand out from other genres, mostly attracting a different audience or having major stylistic and musical differences. Spearhead 16:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First off, the Pirate Metal article claimed that the bands wrote about Pirating. Well, i could see how that would work, Pirate Metal, bands writing Pirate type music with metal elements, yeah. When the article goes on to list bands with nothing to do with Pirates, and the article says nothing about pirates, and was created by a member of the infamous Coin Terming Yahoo Group, there is a problem.

Genres that exist, are fine. Genres that are notable, with well written out definations, examples, citations and what not, yeah, fine. But what was discussed months ago, was that A) Cross-Genre References wouldnt go on the template, B) Only notable genres would be on the template.

WP:NOT explicitly states coin-terming isnt allowed, so when Yahoo Groups, Anons and Pirate Captains start coining terms to group together their favourite bands, that will get deleted. Which is exactly why Circus Metal, Pirate Metal and the other triad of made up nonsense, gets deleted.

As for the List Of Heavy Metal Genres, that was already extensivly worked on by me and WesleyDodds, amongst its moving/merging/copyediting. So, last time i checked, we should be merging the Cross-Genre Reference articles into one, so that we have them all safe and sorted, and then we can get to deleting all the nonsense articles which me and Spearhead have been doing. Ley Shade 18:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think things are moving here. But here's one for you... First line, "Oriental metal is a crossover between death metal and doom metal". Going deeper, "oriental metal" - which I had never heard of til yesterday despite 15+ years as a metalhead - gets 21,000 google hits and the article mentions a grand total of three bands (2 from Israel, 1 from Turkey) with a list of influences from various genres. Yet this is on the glorious template. I don't have a problem with the inclusion, I have questions about the exclusion of other sub-genres which clearly have equal or greater notability and popularity, and where several genres or styles are also listed as "influences" but have been labelled as a "mish-mash". Pirate, Ghost and Circus metal might not qualify but others possibly do. Nobody can have this "both ways", we have to strip things down to the basics - Thrash / Death / Doom etc. and then have sub-lists, sub-templates etc. - or be a lot more inclusive, and say that (within Wikipedia) any existing article which satisfies notability criteria and is referencing a sub-genre of metal qualifies that as a sub-genre of metal. As far as the "coin terming Yahoo group" goes, I know nothing of this outfit, but instantly don't like the sound of them. I agree on the WP:NOT but am interested to know if Ley Shade still thinks "stoner metal" contravenes WP:NOT? I would also like to hear a better definition of "cross-genre references", especially given the "oriental metal" question. Deizio 22:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Id already deleted Oriental Metal from the template a number of times, so someone else has added that back in. Delete it when yew have the time. The Stoner group article belongs on the rock template. As for genres of metal, someone coining a term is someone coining a term, and no amount of hits on Google will make any difference. Search Gothic Metal on google and youll get only a handfull of pages that have abything to do with Gothic Metal. For term coined 'subgenres', sources have to be provided. If they arent, they get deleted. Simple as. Ley Shade 23:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're underestimating the popularity of gothic metal there. There's plenty of white noise from jewelery and trinket-related stuff, and plenty about stuff that isn't "gothic metal" as the true metal fan might see it, but also plenty of real stuff as well. Anyway, what's the criteria for "coining a term"? You're glossing over a pretty subjective area here. As I said on another page, everything from "Heavy metal" on down was "coined" at one point. Anything that has been defined as "genre x" in the mainstream music press or respected metal press is about as verifiable as I think we can reasonably push this. And are you talking about deleting entire pages - obviously a job for AfD, or deleting stuff from metal lists and templates. That's still a job for consensus. Deizio 23:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To help you understand. Coining a term on Wikipedia is in violation of WP:NOT. If the term has been coined elsewhere, and there is significant sources to amount to it being used, we include it here. However, if its a nickname for something else, it doesnt get its own article, it gets mentioned as a nickname for whatever else.

Also im talking about AFD. Core Templates list only the core musical forms, Ie: The Heavy Metal template only lists the core musical forms, the other templates list the subdivisions of themselfs. Ley Shade 09:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thx, but you don't need to "help me understand" Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I'm suprised you haven't gone further, as you would dismiss Pirate metal as "made up", yet you can google any number of media sources which reference it. Making up terms entirely for Wikipedia or your own self satisfaction ("protologisms") is obviously not on, using recently coined phrases which might not be widely accepted or have a clear meaning ("neologisms") is a much greyer area. Let WP:NEO be your guide here.

there is also the issue of notability. Then there is a discussion whether it would warrant a article by itself or that it can be included in an existing article (with a redirection). I am very strongly against all metal subgenre information being scattered among dozens of articles that are barely more than a stub Spearhead 15:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you want the Heavy Metal template to be respected as containing only core genres, I reckon there's a long way to go. Oriental for a start. NSBM a "core genre"? "Blackened death metal" is by definition a crossover, as is "thrashcore". Read the "Viking metal" article recently? And that's just the screamingly obvious ones.

NSBM is one that should be merged into Black metal. Oriental metal should be removed and blackened death metal as well. There is lots of work to do and lots of discussion is needed to reach a consensus on what the core metal genres are. Spearhead 15:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll fully support any AfD proceedings against unnotable articles. I would also support the Heavy metal template being properly stripped down to core genres. In its current state, and per Wesley, it's open to any genres which define themselves as metal, and nobody has the right to delete them because they don't like them. So, strip it down or open it up, what do you reckon? Deizio 15:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strip it down. Cross-Genre References and Fusion Genres are not core genres, unless they have their own established scenes, and are not part of another. Ie: Symphonic Metal would be a core genre, but Viking Metal wouldnt be. Ley Shade 16:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I love it. But even "symphonic", which the article says "...takes a lot of its musical basis from early Gothic metal, power metal, and classical music" is IMO not really a core genre. Not when you think about thrash / death / black / gothic as core genres. Deizio 20:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of heavy metal genres lists it as one. Symphonic Metal = Core Genre, its subsidarys like Symphonic Black/Symphonic Power = Not Core. Get the point now? Ley Shade 22:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of heavy metal genres being what, the definitive guide to what Ley Shade thinks qualifies as "core metal genres"? I "get" that you are keen to shape the presentation of metal on Wikipedia. That's OK because we're here to help. Per the quote from the Symphonic metal page above, it still strikes me as a crossover. The Gothic metal article also lists it as a derivative form. The list of bands on the Symphonic metal page contains a total of 10 bands (8 blue and 2 redlinked). Not what I'm looking for in a "core genre", I have to say. That fact you have been heavily involved in "policing" the list of heavy metal genres and Symphonic metal, removing things you don't agree with using terse edit summaries rather than attempting to build any kind of consensus is there for all to see in the page histories, [1], [2]. It's going to totally fuck up this project if we can't all work together. I personally have no axe to grind against anyone, any band or any genre and I'd love to see this project be a success. Deizio 00:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100%. IMO, Leyasu needs to WP:CHILL. We need to work together. On a side note, Leyasu has Symphonic metal as a core genre (even thought is has only 8 bands, questioned sources, and is a combination of core genres), and said that groove metal is not a core genre (even though groove metal has 16 bands, is an expansion of one genre, and has the highly notable Pantera along with some other, and the Pantera page discusses the development of groove metal). I don't think either should be a core genre. But what do I know?. +Johnson 06:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Still Hungry fixed

See Still Hungry, and Still Hungry. +Johnson 04:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]