Talk:Hung Ga

=== Removed "Y.C. Wong is the son in law of Lam Cho" (that somebody readded.)

Untitled

Y.C. Wong is NOT the son-in-law, but his brother is. ====

major rewrite

I think it's pretty much there. But if you have comments, holler. Zhongyi

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Add Chinese characters? (I can do it...) No? Yes?

Edededed 04:24, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Yes to Chinese characters

I've been just typing them in and get these little ?? question marks where my beautiful characters used to be. Yes. Please. And tell me how too. :) Zhongyi 22:55, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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OK, I added a bunch of characters in - but I don't know the characters for most of the people on the bottom (except for Lam Jou).

It's strange that you are getting those ?? marks - what software are you using? I am just using the Microsoft IMEs to write out characters... Perhaps your Windows version is too old, or your browser doesn't accept the Chinese? Can you send Chinese e-mail (especially from sites like Hotmail)?

ddAnyway, good summary on Hong Gaa! I like it. (Does nobody call it Hong Gaa Kuen?)

Edededed 00:57, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Ed, using Unicode, I'm pretty sure; this is OS X. I've never been able to get those &nnnnn; codes out of my system, but yes, I can read and write Chinese emails just fine. Hmm. Uh, no, I've never heard 'hung gaa kuen' -- that's probably redundant -- hai 'hung kuen', waak jeh hai 'hung gaa', yat ding m hai 'hung paih' la! Doh jeh saai!

Zhongyi 06:35, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Ummm.... I don't speak Cantonese (sorry). My guess is that you are saying that some people call it 'hung kuen,' others call it 'hung gaa,' while some call it 'hung paih?'

I'm not familiar with OS X, so I can't really say what is going on. In any case, perhaps you can try using downloadable editors on the internet that can input Chinese characters (letting you choose what code you are outputing in) for a different method of control that sometimes works. Otherwise... you can also just tell me what characters to add, and I can do it for you.  :)

I had thought that people called it 'hung gaa kuen,' but I suppose that northern Chinese added the 'kuen' to the word when they talk about the style, since that is the convention up there? You know, 'Hongjiaquan,' and so on? Or perhaps to distinguish between the 'Hongquan' northern style? I asked a Hung Gar teacher before how to say 'Hongjiaquan' in Cantonese, and he said 'Hong Gaa Kuen'... but maybe he was just saying that for me.

Edededed 05:32, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Ed -- Oh. I thought you did. Nevermind. No, I have never heard hung gaa kuen used, although I suppose, in retrospect that you could say that, but it's just very awkward. So it's either hung kuen, or hung ga (and also in retro, not gaa). Paih is used to refer to what style you practice. So you say either hung kuen or hung ga. Hung kuen is the commonly used term in colloquial speech. I've heard a parent say in class, ng ga kuen. Well, that's true, but, properly it is hung kuen, one of the five Southern Chinese families (Mok, Lau, Hung, Choi, Chow/Jow).

Zhongyi

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Ng ga kuen? Ng as in Wu (the surname)?

As for the other four of the five families... Well, I guess that Mok, Lau, Choi, and Chow aren't very famous, at least anymore - I don't hear much about their styles, except in the list of famous families.

Edededed 00:55, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hongjiaquan as written in the pinyin system is the same as Hong Gaa Kuen or Hung Gar Kuen. There are a few different systems to "spell" chinese words in the Cantonese dialect; most of the time people just make up a system and everyone else just begins to use it. Basically anything meaning "Hong Family Fist" will be Hung Gar. The Quan or Kuen is basically saying its a boxing style. Its probably not that important except for instances like Taiji Quan as apposed to Taiji where Quan means the martial art and Taiji the theory. The taiji theory is basically philosophical in nature. The same goes for Bagua Zhang.

Also Ng in cantonese is Wu in pinyin/mandarin dialect. You can always just look at the real chinese character when in question. although i have had heard people call their style five animal style which in chinese is wu xing quan or (5 transition fist). which family this belongs to is a little vague.

One question/request. Is there a list of Buck Sam Kong students and the lineage after him? Is his organization the Siu Lam Pai? I just wondered if theres a way to verify lineages to Buck Sam Kong.

by the way, this is one of the better articles in wiki ive seen

--Blckavnger 04:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

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Cantonese spellings

Since Hung Gar kung fu (Hong Jia Quan in pinyin) was mainly practiced by Cantonese dialect speakers before it was disseminated outside of China, much of the Chinese is "written" in Cantonese. Since there is not always a set way (depending on where you grew up) of using English letters to spell Cantonese dialects, there will always be people arguing how to "spell" Chinese words. Even though its not importance since we do have the actual Chinese up there, I propose we pick a system of spelling Cantonese pronunciations such as Yale romanization or HK standarization. i was wondering for the few people who would be interested what they think? --Blckavnger 19:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

Quick question

I heard from a source that Hun Gar and Wing Chun were connected, can someone please verify for my own curisosity?68.102.11.56 02:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hung Gar and Wing Chun both emerged out of the same southern Chinese anti-Qing milieu. Iron Wire Fist is closer to Wing Chun (look at the stances used in Iron Wire) than the rest of the Hung Gar curriculum is. JFD 11:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, also did Choy gar.Legend has it that Wing Chun`s lover, Leung Bok-Chao(who was a student of Choy gar) did infact help to together shape the style of Wing Chun. If so, then this is probably why the stances, and the short centred hand techniques have similarities in Choy gar and Wing Chun.Deeshaloo (talk) 01:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Lam-Sai Wing centric

This article seems too Lam-Sai Wing centric. Historically, there have been arguments between the Lam-Sai Wing branches and the Tang Fung branches as to who maintains the true lineage. Those arguments have mostly ceased, but certainly the large number of Tang Fung descended schools (e.g. www.yeeshungga.com) on the eastern sea-board of the US should be recognized. In addition, there is no reason to list the Lam-Sai Wing curriculum as the "true" Hung Ga curriculum. --- 5/25/08 --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.160.46.127 (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is a second recognized lineage of Hung Gar than, by all means, post information on this other lineage. That being said many people do trace their lineage to Lam Sai Wing and his curriculum is widely respected as a significant Hung Gar curriculum. I don't think that the inclusion of additional noteworthy information is going to raise eyebrows if somebody choses to contribute it. But let's try to avoid lineage wars on the Wikipedia talk pages. ;) Simonm223 (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Listing on Portal

Ive included a link to the Hung Gar page on the portal in the list of martial arts by focus as a mixed / hybrid martial art. Simonm223 (talk) 19:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Cartoons

I have removed the section on affiliations with "Avatar" as the martial art, Hung Gar has no actual affiliation with the fictional martial arts of the cartoon "Avatar: The Last Airbender". Let's please try to keep the information here factual. Simonm223 (talk) 23:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the person who added that was just trying to say that earthbending was based on Hung Gar. However, I am not quite sure if they sourced the statement. The show actually has a martial arts consultant. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Section removed from main article

DO NOT ARCHIVE

I moved the following section here because it claims very specific things, but is bereft of any sources. Much of the info is, in my opinion, nothing but users adding their master's name to the list. There is no proof provided that such and such master was awarded whatever rank and will become such and such grandmaster's "number one disciple". --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The dissemination of Hung Kuen

The dissemination of Hung Kuen in Southern China, and its Guangdong and Fujian Provinces in particular, is due to the concentration of anti-Qing activity there. The Hung Mun began life in the 1760s as the Heaven and Earth Society, whose founders came from the prefecture of Zhangzhou in Fujian Province, on its border with Guangdong, where one of its founders organized a precursor to the Heaven and Earth Society in Huizhou. Guangdong and Fujian remained a stronghold of sympathizers and recruits for the Hung Mun even as it spread elsewhere in the decades that followed. Though the members of the Hung Clan almost certainly practiced a variety of martial arts styles, the composition of its membership meant that it was the characteristics of Fujianese and Cantonese martial arts that came to be associated with the names "Hung Kuen" and "Hung Ga." Regardless of their differences, the Hung Kuen lineages of Wong Fei Hung, Yuen Yik Kai, Leung Wah Chew, and Jeung Kei Ji (張克治) nonetheless all trace their origins to this area and this time period, are all Five Animal styles, and all claim Shaolin origins. Northern Hung Kuen (洪拳), by contrast, is not a Five Animal style and dates to the 16th century. Cantonese and Fujianese are also predominant among Overseas Chinese, accounting for the widespread dissemination of Hung Kuen outside of China.

With exceptions such as Frank Yee (余志偉; Yee Chi Wai) of New York City and Cheung Shu Pui in Philadelphia, both of the Tang Fong lineage, the foremost teachers of Hung Ga in the United States belong to the Lam Sai Wing branch. As the principal teacher under Lam Sai Wing, Lam Cho (林祖)(Lam Sai Wing's adopted nephew) has taught well known masters such as Y.C. Wong (黃耀楨) (San Fransico) and Bucksam Kong (江北山) (Los Angeles and Hawaii). Lam Cho's eldest son, Lam Chun Fai, now carries on his Hung Ga teaching in Hong Kong. Lam Chun Fai has also done much to spread Hung Kuen in Europe.

Other notable students of Lam Cho include Kwong Tit Fu and Tang Kwok Wah. Kwong and Tang taught in Boston, Massachusetts for twenty years before retiring from teaching. Among Tang Kwok Wah's students currently teaching in the area are Winchell Woo and Sik Y. Hum. Calvin Chin of Newton Highlands carries on Kwong's legacy.

Chiu Kau (趙教) began learning Hung Kuen in Singapore. He later married Wong Siu Ying (黃邵英) who began learning Hung Ga from her husband. The couple eventually settled down in Hong Kong where they continued their Hung Ga training at the Lam Sai Wing National Art Association Second Branch. Their sons Chiu Chi Ling (趙志淩) of Alameda, California, and Chiu Wai (趙威) of Calgary, Alberta, Canada are the inheritors of this lineage. Kwong Wing Lam of Sunnyvale, California, studied with Chiu Kau, Chiu Wai, and Lam Jo and learned the Ha Sei Fu style from Leung Wah Chew.

John Leong learned from Lam Sai Wing's student, Wong Lee. The Jeung Kei Ji (張克治) branch of Hung Kuen is represented by Steven C. George (史帝夫) of Mississauga, Ontario, Canada and Daniel Král, Vladimír Šanda, David Kříženecký, Stanislav Fraibiš, Martin Veselý of Prague, Czech Republic.

One of the more famous teachers of Hung Kuen today is the famous Shaw Brothers movie director/actor, Lau Kar Leung(also from the Lam Sai Wing lineage), who has many students in Hong Kong. One of Lau Kar Leung's notable disciples is Mark Ho also known as Mark Houghton, an Englishman who has lived in Hong Kong for 20 years. Mark Ho, with the blessing of Lau Kar Leung, has opened a unique Hung Kuen school in Fanling. The school itself looks like a scene from a Shaw Brothers movie; it has many training chambers, wooden dummies, and hanging logs. There are now Lau Family Hung Kuen schools in China, England and the Philippines.

Chris Dougliss in Ireland trained for a while under Mark Houghton.Chris then trained under Dave Bradley who was a Student of Mark Houghton in Birmingham before Mark went to Hong Kong.Chris moved to Ireland and continued training for many years with a select few Students of his own.He then formed Clonmel Hung Gar Kung Fu School which trains rigidly according to tradition.

An other wellknown Hung Kuen Master of the present is Martin Sewer from Switzerland. He follows his master, Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling, for more than 20 years. With greate tournaments in Switzerland and Hong Kong he did a great job in making Hung Kuen more public. In 2005 he wrote a book about Chiu Chi Lings famous parents, Chiu Kow and Shiu Ying, to commemorate the 10th anniversary of Chiu Kow's death. In January 2008 Martin Sewer received the 7th master degree in Hung Kuen from Chiu Chi Ling personally in Hong Kong. He is the number one deciple and going to be Grandmaster Chiu's successor.

Recent revert

I reverted the recent major edits as they had no cites, reorganized material to little purpose, had tone/presentation problems (such as presenting likely legendary material as fact with no qualifications), and deleted some meaningful links. If this material is reinserted, please do so with sources and attention to proper tone and structure.(My edit summary is incorrect in one respect - the material I thought was a straight up copy wasn't, though the citation problem remains.) Also, the last note on the different branches of Hung Gar made little sense, and was deleted as well (this appeared in a previous edit). Ergative rlt (talk) 02:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

90% of what is listed as fact is still just pure legend. Most of the so called Ancestors of Hung GA (Hung Hei Gun, Luk Ah Choy, Jee Shim can not be proven to exist and as such should be either removed or stated to be legendary folk lore.

There is a definte emphasis on the Wong Fei Hung Lineage over many of the older lineages. The WFH group is actually quite the minority when it comes to Hung Ga throughout the world.

Seems pretty unfair to require specific citations when the entire article is lacking any real citations

I concede that it is difficult to find reliable evidence supporting the legends about the origins of Hung Gar, however the article cannot be complete without mentioning aspects of the generally accepted version. Qualifying them with the term 'folklore' is OK by me.

I disagree with your claim that WFH lineage is the minority, you would need to cite a reference to support that. If you look at the number of practitioners I think you find that WFH is indeed a major lineage, in most parts of the world. Logicman1966 (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Deep Stance

It should be noted that "ping ma" as described in the article is not really a deep stance. Ping ma (soldier's stance) isn't all that deep. It may or may not be relevant to Hung Gar, but in Hung Mei, the deep stance would be a Zuo Ma (seated horse), where the femur is parallel with the ground, and the fib/tib are perpendicular to the ground. There is some variation on the depth of this stance, as it is only a training stance and not an application stance. It's a subtle point, but in the interests of completeness... Andykass (talk) 23:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Iron Wire not true isometrics?

In the section of the article dealing eith the Iron wire form it states that the form combines chi gong with isometrics. Technically, when practicing isometrics the joint angle doesn't change, so the dynamic tension in Iron wire is more akin to Self-resistance a la Charles Atlas. Now that I thinhk about it, Charles Atlas' upper body did resemble a hung gar practitioners. Peace! Emangroove (talk) 15:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It is isometric and isokinetic. Isometric do the fact here is a constant tension where the muscles are working against each other consistently, so as some of the hand positions. The isokinetic comes from the movement at the standard speed. Now I do not know Iron Wire I am still a beginner student, but I am learning the tension right now and am ACSM-CPT for my physiology knowledge. MPB21 08:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)