Talk:Thanksgiving/Archive 2

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Photos

The picture about "traditional thanksgiving dinner" should be removed; Pilgrams didn't have bananas, nor did they have grapes. Furthermore, the turkey is already carved. A pre-carved turkey is to Thanksgiving what a person in a wheelchair is to the Olympic 100m. Jackmont, 22Nov 2006 marion jtm

The wrong date is given

Franklin D. Rooseesvelt moved Thanksgiving to the THIRD Thursday of November to lengthen the Christmas season. It has not been on the 4th Tursday of the month for decades.

Uh, who said Thanksgiving is on the third Thursday of November?! You must be reading a lot of lies and not any books lately! Get a clue! --Angeldeb82 23:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

US versus Canadian holidays

Do these two holidays have so much in common that they should be in the same article? I really think they need to be broken out to separate ones. The origins are completely different. Mapetite526 17:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

And it should be mentionned somewhere that in french Canada, or at least in Quebec, Thanksgiving (in french: Action de grâce) is mostly "just another holiday", Christmas and New Year's day being the times when families are reuniting. It is much less celebrated than in english Canada or the United States. (See also [1] in the "Thanksgiving in Canada" section, but as a Quebecer, I can tell you that none of my friends, collegues or family members "celebrates" thanksgiving) Sébastien Savard 21:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The entire article seems to consist of sections subdivided into "American" and "Canadian". Why not just have 2 articles: Thankgiving (United States) and Thanksgiving (Canada)? This page could just be a disambiguation page. --PurpleRain 21:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I appreciated that they were the same article because I wanted to learn the origins and traditions of the Canadian Thanksgiving to compare, and having them together made this very easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.123.62.186 (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Witches Holiday" language

I've removed the following text, as it lacks sources:

During the 16th and 17th centuries, Thanksgiving was considered 'The Witches' Holiday', celebrating thanks in rememberance of evils past and evils to come. They celebrated by sacrificing animals and conjuring spirits. This is one of the main reasons why Thanksgiving is celebrated after Halloween.

It can go back if there are trustworthy citations that can be provided, but "Thanksgiving is actually evil" can't stand without evidence backing that assertion up. JDoorjam Talk 19:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of "Thanksgiving is evil", Jack Chick claims the so-called "evils" of Thanksgiving, as described in his Chick tract The Missing Day. Here's the link: [2] And here's another: [3] --Angeldeb82 01:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Jack Chick is a loony, and I'm being insulting to loonies when I say that.Dogface 21:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. He just thinks Thanksgiving is a religious holiday that is "attacked by pagans and heathens" that make us not thankful for God but for "Mom, beer, and apple pie", which is a sin, and that when a nation forgets God and stops giving thanks, then it will be "brought to judgment", as it is written in the Bible, "The wicked will depart for the netherworld, with all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:18, NAB) What an idiot who doesn't know that Thanksgiving is not just a religious but a national holiday, wouldn't you say? --Angeldeb82 03:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Citation for Night Before Item

I added the item about the night before being a popular night to go out drinking because it is a common knowledge here in the Northeast, something that if mentioned in a news article, would only be seen in passing and not the main thrust of it.

I have removed it. It is unsourced and has been removed once already for the same reason. Please sign your statements on talk pages. Mapetite526 16:35, 12

October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I dont think of you as an informed arbiter of what should be on this article. I think I will put my item back up. -Attackoftheclones

But this time you included a source, which because I was trying to be helpful, I moved to the appropriate edit so it won't get deleted again. Hmm and I did it before I read your comment. Mapetite526 21:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, sorry to be hostile, I dont have the best relationship with wiki administrators. -Attackoftheclones

Are you guys out of your minds?

Isn't the larger question: Why in the world should a discussion about the way a distinct minority of people behave on the night before Thanksgiving be the very FIRST sentence describing traditional observance of Thanksgiving??! That's like making the first sentence describing the U.S. congress be a statement about Ted Kennedy driving off a bridge, drunk, with a woman not his wife.

Above, Ferdinangus, from Britain, says that he "came to this article to discover what this day is all about", and we begin by telling him that the day is traditionally celebrated by getting drunk on the night before, if you're a dysfunctional college brat from the northeast. Shouldn't the discussion begin by saying that Thanksgiving is traditionally celebrated by getting together with family, enjoying a fine meal together, and taking time to be grateful for what we have? --TomTurkey 02:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

Some of the triviais really pushing the limits of relevance, especially: * the last show of "The Band"

• it might be a favorite theme for T.V. shows, but highlighting series (as opposed to perhaps historically significant episodes)?

--Belg4mit 02:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The Real story on the First Thanksgiving?

I wont say that I'm an expert on Thanksgiving, but I came across this article a few years ago and I think that some mention of how the capitalist philosophy (as opposed to the rather socialist one that they arrived in America with) played a big part in the overall success of the colony. This arcticle will support what I'm saying: http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=email&refer=columnist_baum&sid=a4BfNadB0NAM

--Rush Limbaugh cites this story (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/stacks/trsofg.guest.html) as the Real Meaning of Thanksgiving, and he supposedly recites this story every Thanksgiving on his radio program (or so he claimed while I was listening to his show yesterday, 20Nov06). At the end of the web article above, Rush claims "Thanksgiving, in other words, is not thanks to the Indians, and it's not thanks to William Bradford. It's not thanks to the merchants of London. Thanksgiving is thanks to God, pure and simple." But the idea that he pointed to as allowing the colonists to survive was "the power of the marketplace". It seems to me that Rush Limbaugh is trying to suggest that Capitalism is a gift from God, and that is what we should be thankful for. Any comments?

This external link was mistakenly taken off of the newest revision because someone messed up the link when adding something else. Its a legitimate article about the First Thanksgiving in Virginia, before the Pilgrims arrived in the New World. http://www.virginia.org/site/features.asp?FeatureID=50 I think it should be replaced.

Well, Rusty's a little mixed up on this point and always has been. I've been meaning to try and call for many years now to straighten him out, but the thought of taking the time to even try always dissuades me. Yes, they did abandon their original compact of doing everything communally and yes, that did greatly increase the motivation and productive output of the colony as a whole. However, it was the year after the first Thanksgiving celebration that they abandoned it. The local indians played a crucial role in the survival of the pilgrims, and there never has been any reason for the pilgrims themselves or us today not to see that as the hand of Divine Providence. Darentig 14:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, Rush Limbaugh, is WAY off the mark (as you can expect him to be because he is a highly biased pundit with no interest in historical integrity.) The thanksgiving holiday has nothing to do with thanking William Bradford or the Indians. They were deeply religous and were thanking god for helping them survive the brutal hardships and reality of frontier life. The settlers worked together in a so called "socialist" capacity because none of them knew what the heck they were doing at first. They banded together because they were scared of dying.

That being said, the native american people were going through an even rougher patch just before the mayflower landed due to illnesses brought over by europeans. The Mayflower settlers attempted to barter, learn from and trade with the natives becuase they were desperately fighting for survival and much like men at war they quickly forget racial barriers when questions of survival came into immediate jeopardy. However, the idea that the native americans were accepted as equals in their society is as ridiculous as Limbaugh being a remotely accurate historian, they just didn't care who helped them survive as long as they did.

Paragraph ordering

Why does the Traditional celebration section start with the Macy's parade? And then followed up with the post-holiday shopping? Which is followed by the not-unimportant but nevertheless incidental football? Only after all that is the traditional feasting mentioned (but not the family gatherings). -Freekee 02:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC) the native indians also included not only pilgrims

Several or two?

Perhaps the wording under PILGRIMS can be clarified... "Several American colonists have personal accounts of the 1621 feast in Massachusetts..." and then following the two accounts from Bradford and Winslow the next paragraph states, "The two preceding passages are the only records of the event..."

Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.183.6.194 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

A World festival?

In the introduction it states:

[...] though it is not thought of as a major event (compared to Christmas or Easter) as it is in other parts of the world

However it only goes on to describe the North American celebrations, therefore unless it is a 'major event' elsewhere in the world it should read:

[...] though it is not thought of as a major event (compared to Christmas or Easter) as it is in North America

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.103.37.70 (talk • contribs) 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Native Americans?

I was under the impression that this was a festival in the Christian tradition? Am I wrong? (Confused Brit) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.58.233.129 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you can be simultaneously thankful to God and thankful to those helping you here on Earth, can't you? —Angr 10:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually was suprized that the description of the holiday mentioned god ("is an annual one-day holiday to give thanks (traditionally to God)). I'm an American born and bred and have been a New Yorker all of my 40 years and I have never in my life ever associated the American holiday of Thanksgiving to god in anyway - nor have I ever heard anyone make that association either. It is possible that the original origins had something to do with the ending of the harvest season, but what does that have to do with modern times and what Thanksgiving really is in 2006? The reality is, Thanksgiving is a holiday where people get together with their families and it is perhaps the only time of year for many people that they actually get together with many of their relatives. So, the way I see it, the whole description of the holiday should remove the god reference - or, even better, create seperate listings for each country's observance and meanings, and not try to make generalizations nor add religion to something that isn't religious - at least in modern times.

Of course not everyone's celebration of Thanksgiving is religious, but neither is everyone's celebration of Christmas. But Thanksgiving is in origin a religious holiday, and it remains a religious holiday for a great number of people -- just not a specifically Christian holiday, which is what distinguishes it from other secularized religious holidays like Christmas and Easter. I'm always astonished when I encounter atheists who celebrate Thanksgiving, because I can't help but wonder who precisely they're being thankful to. —Angr 19:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to be thankful "to" anyone. You can be thankful that you have your family. That's what it's about. While I'm not an athiest, I too have never heard of thanksgiving being a religious holiday. That's just made up crap, typical of agenda-pushing wikipedia editors. 75.25.101.110 01:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Refer to Abraham Lincoln's proclamation of the National Holiday that we celebrate today. It is "a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens" Lincoln further described the "beneficent Father" as the "Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy." I don't see much ambiguity in Lincoln's intention. Bravenav 05:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"To be thankful" is passive instead of active. I'd expound, but you can just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_tense if you need to. Summary: "Thanking" requires a direct object, "being thankful" does not. For example, you cannot say "I thank" with no object, just as you cannot say "John threw." However, you can say "I am thankful" as a complete sentence, just like: "The ball was thrown." Therefore you can be athiest, be completely thankful, and still be quite sure that people who go to church on Sundays are suffering from a particular kind of mass delusion (pun completely intended) coupled with a healthy dose of wishful thinking. I don't know how to sign this, so I'll just say this was written by Kelly F. in Japan.

PS - The story of the first Thanksgiving involved religion (notably, fleeing from it). I fail to make the leap that makes it "a religious holiday." There was some statement that it would be a day of "thanksgiving and prayer to God," which I found in a children's reading comprehension worksheet here in Japan. However, when it was petitioned to be made into a national holiday in the 1800s (a petition to the Government of the United States), the basis was definitely not on Bradshaw's use of the phrase "prayer to God," but rather on the story of the unity of people within the United States. It was originally intended to be secular, just like the Fourth of July. God was incidental.

I agree with Kelly F. in Japan - atheists can take a day out of the year to appreciate what they have (be thankful) without having to give credit to a white haired guy sitting on a cloud holding a thunderbolt. We take time to appreciate and visit with our families, eat food, and reflect on how fortunate we are, just like religious people do. - Jason S in New York

"To be thankful" isn't passive. Did you actually read English passive voice ("passive tense" means nothing at all)? Thankful is an adjective, not a verb form. And whether "thankful" grammatically needs its argument to be explicit, pragmatically you can't feel thankful without directing it toward someone. The Puritans were incidentally not "fleeing from religion" but rather fleeing from religious persecution, to a place where they would be free to practice their own (extremely strict and uncompromising) religion without being hassled by people whose views they considered too "worldly". Of course atheists can feel thankful -- toward other people, or toward themselves -- but you hardly need to set aside a special day for that. —Angr 09:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you set aside a special day for it? Your argument makes no sense from an atheists perspective. Belief in God is a personal choice, and essentially to atheists when you thank god, you're just thanking an illusory being. Effectively, you're not thanking anyone either. So, you can have your version of Thanksgiving, and atheists will have theres. We'd change the name from Thanksgiving to "Sit down with the family and have a big dinner" Day but frankly that's too much work and it already has a name.

It should be a thank the First Nations day. Yeah the White Man should give thanks to the natives for dying when the Europeans infected them with disease for which they had no immunities, and for the fact that because they did not live in crowded slums as the Europeans were accustomed to, the 'Indians' did not have rampant diseases of their own to give back... thanks for giving us no disease.

And thanks for allowing some of the poor wretches who stumbled off the boat and immediately digging random holes in search of gold, thanks to the local tribespeople for hiring them as servants... thanks for the employment opportunities.

And thanks that there were native graves to rob of pots and bowls, and thanks for the fresher corpses that the barbaric Europeans could feast upon as cannibals so as not to starve, thanks for the dishes and food.

And thanks to Squanto for his time as a slave in England, during which he learned the language to teach agriculture to the ignorant savages from across the sea. the Europeans who murdered his people and created a settlement in what had once been his own village's cropland, carved by the natives of the New World out of hardwood forests. Thanks for clearing the land.

And thanks for teaching us about maize, now one of the world's top agribusiness staples, you can't make corn chips or steer manure without a whole lotta corn, so thanks for corn.

So as a Euro-american, let me take this moment, on behalf of the colonial imperative which led to the near total genocide of the First Americans of turtle island, to give a great big thank you for not infecting us when we infected you, for giving us jobs when we were illegal immigrants, and for welcoming us into your homes, for feeding us, giving us gifts, for tolerating our thefts, our rapes, and robberies, and murders of your people, and thanks for corn and for clearing the land for our settlements, so we could build houses where you used to grow food, and in general thanks for just dying and getting out of the way of the Europeans. And thanks for letting us get away with teaching our children that the invaders were the hosts instead of the guests at the first thanksgiving dinner, calling them 'Pilgrims' instead of pillagers... yes God has indeed blessed our day of giving thanks. User:Pedant 00:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

WWII dates

The Detroit Lions of the American National Football League have hosted a game every Thanksgiving Day since 1934, with the exception of 1939–1944 (due to World War II).

Why would the Lions cancel their games between 1939-1941? The USA weren't at war then. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.195.0.102 (talk • contribs) 12:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Images from 23 November 2006

I removed the images of westerners slaughtering/torturing natives that were added by Lentz18 on 23 November 2006 because they were not properly captioned and showed no direct relationship to Thanksgiving. If anything these should have been incorporated under a heading about criticism but more likely they should have been included on a seperate page of their own. In either case they should have been properly captioned.--Wlf211 13:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the source they came from; they were all about massacres/tortures in Central or South America anyway, so there was really no relation to an article about North American Thanksgiving. —Angr 13:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

To all those in the United States,

Happy Turkey Day!

Mangez bien! → JARED ^(t)  14:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why no mention of Thanksgiving Day massacres?

I am no professional historian, but over the years I have repeatedly encountered a view of Thanksgiving that goes something like this: the first event was a multicultural celebration of some sort, with settlers thankful for their survival and inviting the indigenous folks for either political, celebratory or mixed reasons, but then, after 1621, the holiday lapsed, and may have next come up in the context of a massacre of 700 Pequot men, women and children. I don't have the original source but an article at Independent Media Center includes the following, which I have seen previously:

"William Newell, a Penobscot Indian and former chair of the anthropology department of the University of Connecticut, claims that the first Thanksgiving was not "a festive gathering of Indians and Pilgrims, but rather a celebration of the massacre of 700 Pequot men, women and children." In 1637, the Pequot tribe of Connecticut gathered for the annual Green Corn Dance ceremony. Mercenaries of the English and Dutch attacked and surrounded the village; burning down everything and shooting whomever try to escape. The next day, Newell notes, the Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony declared: "A day of Thanksgiving, thanking God that they had eliminated over 700 men, women and children." It was signed into law that, "This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots." Most Americans believe Thanksgiving was this wonderful dinner and harvest celebration. The truth is the "Thanksgiving dinner" was invented both to instill a false pride in Americans and to cover up the massacre."

http://indy.pabn.org/archives/213thank.shtml

Why wouldn't this be mentioned in the main article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michaeljwsiegel (talk • contribs) 15:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources for it, it could be alluded to, although the article is more about the modern holiday than about 17th century American history. —Angr 15:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is another page on the subject with some more references:

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/thanksgiving_nelte.html

I'm hoping someone can check some of this out, and add it back to the article. Since thanksgiving is usually thought of as marking an historical event, it is certiantly relevant to use the article to examine historical context. There are many examples of popular media making reference to thanksgiving controversy; Since people are already aware of them, this article should be a place to point to concrete references. 24.84.4.109 03:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Page's been vandalised with random obscenities

Ugh. I am a non-American and came here to know about Thanksgiving Day. Pretty annoyed at the page having been vandalised by the likes of teenaged punks apparently. Requesting a page restore and the relevant IP bans.

I have removed the offending material as I found it offensive as well.

Thanks for noticing! Please see Help:Reverting for how to revert vandalism. —Angr 16:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Same here. I'm British and saw a few minutes ago that it had been defaced with the f-word on the first line. I think it's now been removed.

Meltingpot

Turkey Pardoning

Is there a source for this, or is this a sily edit? - Narfness 18:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a silly edit, it's a longstanding tradition that the President pardons the Presidential turkey. —Angr 19:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Semi-Protected

I know someone's going to take me to task over this, but take a look at the history. Oh the irony indeed that the last edit before the semi-protection was constructive and from an IP, but the vandalism has gotten a bit excessive. Unprotect it after an hour or so, or unprotect it immediately if you have a serious aversion to my move. -- tariqabjotu 18:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've made a request for this page to be re-semi-protected, at least until the end of the holiday. As can be evidenced from the history, vandalism before and after the sprotect has been rampant, while during the sprotect, there was nothing. The request can be found here. –Dvandersluis 21:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to split this article according to nationality

Since the article consists mostly of sections divided into Canadian and American subsections, I propose that the article be split. This page would become a disambiguation page linking to Thanksgiving (American), Thanksgiving (Canadian), and Harvest festival. It would make each article flow a lot better and would make it easier for people to find the information they are looking for. I suspect that most people reading this page are looking for information on either American Thanksgiving or Canadian Thanksgiving, and aren't that interested in the other. --PurpleRain 19:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. This would be the same as having articles like Christmas (American), Christmas (European), etc. The purpose of this article is to descrive the Thanksgiving holiday and how it is celebrated. To have two articles would mean having to duplicate the first few paragraphs almost identically for both articles. Just because it's only celebrated in two countries doesn't mean it's any less of an independent holiday with it's own traditions, Canada or America alike.— OLP 1999 20:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

  Comment: This isn't quite the same as splitting the Christmas article. The holidays in the two countries are on different days, and have mostly different traditions. The one paragraph that isn't currently in a country-specific subsection could exist on the disambiguation page. Or, if we find more in common between the two, we could have a generic Thanksgiving page with links to country-specific traditions. I just think the way it is formatted right now is silly. If you want to read about American Thanksgiving you need to skip over all the Canada sections, and vice-versa.

  If the holiday were mostly the same in Canada and the U.S., with a few minor variations, then it would make sense just to have a section of this article explaining the different traditions in the two countries. But the entire article is divided by country, except for the first paragraph.

  --PurpleRain 21:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Per PurpleRain. –Dvandersluis 21:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not a general overview of thanksgiving, the things that are common to both Canada and the USA, and then have links at the bottom to the traditions of each distinct region.--Talroth 04:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Non-Standard Analysis

There a fair number of mainstream historians affiliated with major research universities who contend that Thanksgiving actual celebrates and victory over indians in Connecticut by settlers of the region. It has seized upon by Marxists who contort it for their political ends, but nevertheless the history goes something like what is below. I believe it should be worked into the article, because as far as I understand the literature on the topic it is regarded by academics as more influential in forming the thanksgiving tradition than the squanto line of events, which was emphasized later.

"In 1637 near present day Groton, Connecticut, over 700 men, women and children of the Pequot Tribe had gathered for their annual Green Corn Festival, the native groups annual Thanksgiving celebration. In the predawn hours the sleeping Indians were surrounded by English and Dutch mercenaries who ordered them to come outside. Those who came out were shot or clubbed to death while the terrified women and children who huddled inside the longhouse were burned alive. The next day the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared "A Day Of Thanksgiving" because 700 unarmed men, women and children had been murdered."

If you can cite reliable sources for it, it can be added. —Angr 21:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

what does "seized upon by Marxists who contort it for their political ends" mean? —michaeljwsiegel

thanksgiving

thanksgiving is on the 3rd thursday in november and not the 4th

Today is the fourth Thursday of the month: Nov. 2, Nov. 9, Nov. 16, Nov. 23 --PurpleRain 22:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

happy thankgiving

Just wanted to say, have a happy thanksgiving! SupaStarGirl 13:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanksgiving Birthday Pattern

Thanksgiving is a rare holiday that doesn't fall on the same date each year. The date is affected by the fact that it is fixed to the fourth Thursday of November. And leap year causes the date to jump a year. The resulting pattern is a 28 year cycle that goes like this; 11 years, 6 years, 5 years, 6 years then repeats.

If your Birthday falls between 11/22 and 11/28 it will eventually fall on Thanksgiving day. The easiest way to tell if your Birthday is going to fall on Thanksgiving is to look at the first day of November. If the first day of the month is a;
Sun = Thanksgiving is on the 26th,
Mon = 25th,
Tues = 24th,
Wed = 23rd,
Thu = 22nd,
Fri = 28th,
Sat = 27th.

Following is a list of Thanksgiving Birthday's for each possible date;
11/22 -- 2007, 2012, 2018, 2029, 2035;
11/23 -- 2006, 2017, 2023, 2028, 2034;
11/24 -- 2011, 2016, 2022, 2033, 2039;
11/25 -- 2010, 2021, 2027, 2032, 2038;
11/26 -- 2009, 2015, 2020, 2026, 2037;
11/27 -- 2008, 2014, 2025, 2031, 2036;
11/28 -- 2013, 2019, 2024, 2030, 2041
gregmjr

An international holiday

After witnessed what happened to the Native Americans, Afghanistans, Iraqis and poor guys of New Orleans, people all over the world decided that they shall celebrate Thanksgiving. We must thank George W. Bush for not invading our countries. Otherwise, we would all become badly-burned turkeys. -- Toytoy 15:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Origin

Could anyone explain how the holiday evolved in the English-speaking countries in general and America in particular? Why did "the early settlers" choose to celebrate it annually? It is essential that the holiday is specific to these countries, so there should be some explanation of that. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 19:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

UK

"In the United Kingdom, Thanksgiving is another name for the Harvest festival,"

Can this assertion be corroborated? I'm a Brit and have never heard Harvest festival called Thanksgiving - but maybe it is in some parts of the country????????
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.104.55.241 (talk • contribs) 09:21, November 27, 2006 (UTC).

Yes I find this slightly strange too. If Thanksgiving is known at all in the UK, it is known as an American festival. This sentence needs to be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.221.241.90 (talk • contribs) 02:49, November 28, 2006 (UTC).

As a Brit, I have never heard of Harvest Festival being called Thanksgiving here. And I would describe it as a US holiday, not American since I would associate it with the United States and not the Americas as a wh —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.12.244.204 (talk • contribs) 07:46, November 30, 2006 (UTC).

Thanksgiving is definitely widely celebrated in Canada. It is a national holiday, a day off work and school, and a chance to get together with family and friends. I can't speak for other parts of the Americas, but it's definitely more than just the U.S. (Also note that, at least in North America, the word "American" generally refers to someone or something from the United States. Otherwise the terms "North American" or "South American" are used. By contrast, "America" can refer to the U.S. (not used that way by many Canadians), or to the wider continent/continents) —P^urpleRA^IN 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Black Friday Definition?

Under the "United States" traditions section, this comment is made: "This day is called "Black Friday" due to all of the money being transacted, causing cashiers' hands to become black." I've heard many differing definitions for the term "Black Friday", and this is one of the least convincing. I don't think this is true, and if it is, please cite the source. Thanks. Aabbbiee 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I believe the reason for the name Black Friday ("This day is called "Black Friday" due to all of the money being transacted, causing cashiers' hands to become black.") Should be removed since there are many definitions for the term and the one chosen is not the definition usually used. Instead of citing its source, I believe it should be removed and just a link provided to the Black Friday (shopping) Wikipedia page. 12/1/06

Splitting the article

I have split this article into two separate articles: Thanksgiving (Canada) and Thanksgiving (United States). This makes it easier to read for all involved, since the previous article required skipping over sections related to the other country. This page has now become a disambiguation page. Please review the separate articles and observe how much easier they are to read before commenting on the split. —P^urpleRA^IN 22:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I am quite certain the vast majority of the links to Thanksgiving are for Thanksgiving (United States). This seems like an issue. -- tariqabjotu 23:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense, then, to have them linking directly to Thanksgiving (United States) rather than a generic Thanksgiving page where a user must filter through the material to find the relevant info? I'll begin changing the links to Thanksgiving right away. —P^urpleRA^IN 14:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've updated 95 pages so far. There are a lot of them. Most have been changed to Thanksgiving (United States), while a few have been changed to Thanksgiving (Canada). A few have been left pointing to Thanksgiving, since they don't clearly reference a specific country (e.g. they are only referring to turkey dinners and family gatherings). I will keep going on updating the links, but if other want to join in, please do. The pages that link to Thanksgiving can be found at Special:Whatlinkshere/Thanksgiving. I expect some links will be updated by editors of the linking pages as well, as they discover the link going to a disambiguation page. —P^urpleRA^IN 17:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Split it again!

The previous page for "Thanksgiving" (without my addition) really wasn't a good Wikipedia entry. The term 'thanksgiving' has been around a lot longer than the North American holiday.

Dictionary.com defines 'thanksgiving' so:

1. the act of giving thanks; grateful acknowledgment of benefits or favors, esp. to God.
2. an expression of thanks, esp. to God.
3. a public celebration in acknowledgment of divine favor or kindness.
4. a day set apart for giving thanks to God.

Notice that the public celebration, and the "day set apart for giving thanks to God", are only two out of four definitions, and come bottom of the list. I'm sure other dictionaries are not so kind to American 'Thanksgiving' as Dictionary.com.

I came across this anomaly when I wanted to link to a page about the act of religious thanksgiving, from an article on prayer. The most common use of the word 'thanksgiving' in the English language comes from Biblical references such as this:

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. (Phil 4:6 NIV)

I don't think that they had to eat turkey every time they wanted to say thank you to God in Biblical times! (chuckle) It seemed to me, therefore, that when a Wikipedia user clicked a link to the word 'thanksgiving' the first thing he/she should be confronted with should not be a turkey! (lol) I felt that that made a turkey out of the encyclopedia.

Anyway, I took it upon myself to write the article, and great fun I had doing it... plus ANOTHER late night!

JoJoUK2007 02:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I like your addition, but I wonder if the two articles should be separate? We might want an article for the act of Thanksgiving, and another for Thanksgiving Day. My guess is that most often, when someone types "Thanksgiving" in the search box, they will be looking for Thanksgiving Day. You could put a {{for}} tag at the top of Thanksgiving that redirects to Thanksgiving Day. Thoughts? —P^urpleRA^IN 18:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

French Canadians Don't Enjoy Thanksgiving?

I edited text "Although in English Canada Thanksgiving is often celebrated with family, it is also often a time for weekend getaways for couples to observe the autumn leaves, spend one last weekend at the cottage or participate in various outdoor activities such as hiking, fishing and hunting. The holiday is not as significant a family occasion amongst French Canadians, however."-- This is pure conjecture. As a French Canadian, I enjoy "l'Action de Grâce" just as much as any English Canadian, in every aspect mentioned above. To conclude that we don't appreciate Thanksgiving as the rest of Canada is completely invented and racist in its very nature. Cplbeaudoin 15:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate

Wow, wikipedia rewriting history?

Somebody nominate this for cleaning up!

Agriculture?

The nav boxes for agriculture and horticulture don't really seem to belong on this article. Sure, Thanksgiving is related to a fall harvest, but it really has nothing to do with how the plants/animals are grown and harvested. It only relates to having the food.

It seems to me that if these boxes are not included in articles like Supermarket and Slaughterhouse, then they definitely shouldn't be in Thanksgiving.

—P^urpleRA^IN 18:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, perhaps it is too tangential. Cheers!Wassupwestcoast 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Examples of what to do on the Holiday?

How important is it to say that families can see the autumn leaves or go to their cottage? It's just important that lonely people have a few days to sit at home on their computers looking at pornography. Do you catch my drift? Examples of how to spend a holiday don't seem like they belong in a factual encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.10.197 (talk) 02:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The God paragraph (Neutrality)

There's a paragraph under "traditional celebration" that begins: "The Thanksgiving holiday was established as a national day of giving thanks and praise to God...." and then is followed by an excessive list of citations. Obviously this is the product of a religious person and a secular person arguing over the religious significance of the holiday. It sounds stupid, looks out of place, and reads very badly. it could easily be smoothed out by working something like "While the holiday retains no sanctioned religious significance, it originally included expressions of thanks to God, and many families still give thanks in prayers to this day," into an earlier part of that section. Youdontsmellbad (talk) 08:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the redirect to the Thanksgiving disambiguation page. Since Thanksgiving itself has an article it needs its own talk page, and the disambiguation page as well needs its own. I got rather confused when I clicked to the talk page then clicked back only to find myself in the wrong article suddenly. I don't know of any precedent for redirecting talk pages as this one was. Russeasby 02:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Should it even say in the first sentence that Thanksgiving is a holiday to give thanks to God? I have never heard that before in my life, and though there is a citation of Lincoln's reference to God, this holiday is widely considered to be secular, even by the most religious people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.88.146 (talk) 12:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I second the above - as an elementary school teacher and a Christian, we talk about Thanksgiving all the time in school, and never once do we talk about giving thanks to God. We talk about thanks for family, good fortune, etc. I don't think I've ever heard it brought up in church, and about the only religious aspect is we say grace, just like at every meal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.199.128.156 (talk) 13:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The opening sentence reads like it's trying to prove the holiday is a religious one to readers. Furthermore, all three citations are links to statements given by US presidents, not historians. In light of this, I have added a NPOV tag and feel it should remain in place until the introduction is re-writtbuysquelo ud sin esya mnnsmposlobvdjvadsjcvven, or more suitable citations are found. Xargon666x6 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Ichormosquito (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

But the sentence says that "Thanksgiving was established ... to God". Since Christianity was the norm at the time, it doesn't seem too big stretch to say the it was that originally, especially given the citations. Isn't it revisionist to say "we don't include God now, so we must pretend he wasn't included then"? 199.71.183.2 (talk) 20:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not what we're saying. The section on Thanksgiving's history gives due weight to God, as far as I can tell. Ichormosquito (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed Icho. "Stretching" already implies a non neutral interpretation. Aceholiday (talk) 10:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"While the holiday retains no sanctioned religious significance" ??? Thanksgiving is still used as an occasion to "give thanks to God" by many theists. --RucasHost (talk) 14:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a firm believer in seperating religion, and being careful not to INSERT religion where it does not belong. Here I honestly don't see why anyone would think this celebration had nothing to do with god...yes I used the lower case. As stated all participants at the event had a traditional celebration at the end of the harvest....I don't think it's a stretch to propose that they were thankful and therefore giving up worship or praise or what have you TO something/someone. During this time, and with the groups of peoples we are addressing here, religion was exactingly crucial to thier societies. To think that religion played no part in this festivity and that one of the main objectives of the feast was not to celebrate what god had provided, is blantent disregard for key features of native american and early settler societies. Native american tribes had festivals and thanksgiving (to earth/dieties) for almost every successful event in thier lives. While this event would not have been THIER harvest festival, they would have viewed the settlers celebration as the settlers harvest festival, and therefore a religious event. My perspective as a partial Native American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.43.77.142 (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment. A study of the period, the people involved and the very reason for their very existence on this continent at the time produces the obvious conclusion that the holiday was a purely Christian, and not even just "spiritual" holiday in it's origin. We're talking about the historical holiday, not just a general practice. Because of the removal of the Christian background/origin of this holiday from this article, the details in this article no longer agree with the details pervasive in the "Thanksgiving (United States)" article on Wikipedia, specifically the opening/definition paragraph, section 2.2 (Giving Thanks), etc. If I understand the purpose of Wikipedia, which includes neutrality as a core value, than the above user's comments are correct. Moreover, it appears that ignorance of historical fact and/or an attempt to remove the Christian origins from this holiday's past (including the Pilgrim's celebration of what our current holiday is traced back to) does not agree with fact or the context of the article, and is therefore no longer neutral. V3rac1ty (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Bold text

Not sure who wrote this article or what prompted the promulgation thereof, I am tempted to correct what much of America would consider an error or two.

The Pilgrims themselves would have classified the time of the festival with the Indians as a time to thank the Christian God, creator of all and up holder of all of life. The Indians likewise, would have served the same God, although they might not have know that this was what they were doing. The nature God is not far from both Jehovah's revelation as the nature God and the Judeo-Christian God.

However, it was the language of our President Abraham Lincoln that set forth The National Heritage of Thanksgiving. To Thank God for bounty of life thus far, but also as a time of thanksgivng and of prayer among people of both the north and southern states. A humble man with a humble wish as the country faced a terrible plight that only such a time of humble introspection could help to end. It is both religious and secular and its roots were in pre-Colonial America, but it found its' National Heritage with the terrible deaths associated with the American Civil War. Stanley B Adams, historical writer and theologian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanleybadams (talk • contribs) 12:31, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Many people still view Thanksgiving as a religious holiday. By holding and attending special church services on Thanksgving, many people do in fact still see this holiday as primarily one of giving thanks to God. "Today, Thanksgiving is a time when many families come together, and many churches are open for special services." http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmah/thanks.htm Eliz416 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

We do not eat yams

it says yams are a featured ingredient in Thanksgiving - and it links to the African/Polynesian yam (genus Dioscarea) - not only is this crop not at all popular or even really known in America or Canada, it CANNOT be grown here. We do eat SWEET POTATOS (Ipomeoa batatas), which is mentioned, but WE DO NOT EAT YAMS. I am deleting the yams link.

I eat yams on Thanksgiving. I love yams. Why all the yam hatin', dawg? 71.68.15.63 (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Americans often refer to sweet potatoes as yams. It is a misnomer that has now become accepted by common usage as an alternate definition and you'll find it in many food dictionaries. I think you're being a bit overzealous here. By all means remove the link to the incorrect entry for yams, but allow the word yam to be linked tosweet potato. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wanderlustlost (talk • contribs) 15:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It gets worse than that: we also eat a sweet tuber that looks like a potato that we call 'sweet potato' but which isn't the sweet potato. (Perhaps the oca?) kwami (talk) 11:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

YAMS WERE AND STILL ARE DIETARY ITEMS FOR SLAVES AND SLAVE HOLDERS OF THE SOUTH. Slavery may no longer exist but the eating of the African tuber still does, those who do not say that they might be part of the diet of American givers of thanks just do not know the southern part of the American Heritage.Stanleybadams (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC) Stanley Adams —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanleybadams (talk • contribs) 12:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it 3rd or 4th

Make up your mind, what Thursday is it, 3rd or 4th? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.239.129 (talk) 02:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It is always the 4th Thursday of November. I think sometimes people get confused when there are 5 Thursdays in November. They think, "It was the second-last Thursday in November; that must be the third Thursday." —P^urpleRA^IN 18:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed celebrated the 4th Thursday of November, which means it is no earler than 11/22 (as it is in 2007) & no later than 11/28 (since 11/29 would be the 5th Thursday). If it were celebrated the 3rd Thursday, it could be as early as 11/15.Shkasper (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In 1941 it was made law to be the fourth thursday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.173.31.96 (talk) 14:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protect?

I noticed last year, and it's starting already this year: As the (U.S.) holiday approaches, a lot more people start viewing this page, and a percentage of them are vandals, which results in a lot more vandalism. I'm sure the page will get semi-protected some time during the next few weeks. Why not be pro-active and do it now, and save a lot of reverting? As soon as Thanksgiving has passed, it can be unprotected again. (The same applies to Thanksgiving (United States).) —Preceding unsigned comment added by PurpleRain (talk • contribs) 14:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Its best to leave it open to editing until an actual problem arises, protecting it now may stop some good faith editors from editing unnecessarily. Russeasby 15:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you define "an actual problem?" There were 35 edits yesterday, of which perhaps 3 were good-faith edits, and the rest were vandalism or reversion of vandalism. I would call that an actual problem. But even if you don't, what is the criteria for semi-protection? Does there need to be a certain number of bad-faith edits in a single day? Prolonged vandalism over the course of several days? A certain number of distinct vandals?

Remember that semi-protection doesn't preclude editing -- it just requires the user to have an account. Good-faith edits can still happen, and are less likely to be reverted accidentally because they're in the midst of 20 bad-faith edits that are reverted en-masse. —P^urpleRA^IN 16:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I, like you, was simply expressing my opinion. Myself I only like to see articles protected unless absolutely necessary, case of extream edit warring, overwhelming vandalism and such, and even then I prefer to see users blocked rather then articles protected (even semi, anons contribute greatly to WP). Think of the policy of featured article of the day not being protected, even though the vandalism is increadably high, even with the high vandalism, being high profile also encourages some good edits even if they don't seem like much compared to the amount of vandalism. With Thanksgiving approaching this article gets similar attention and among those vandal edits, will be some good anon edits as well. If you wish to see the page protected, then submit a request for it, I wont object. But you asked for input, and I gave my view. Russeasby 16:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I'm sorry if my previous response sounded confrontational. I was sincerely looking for an answer to what constitutes sufficient vandalism to warrant semi-protection. I wasn't aware that there was an official process for requesting protection -- I'll look into that. Thanks for your polite and patient feedback. —P^urpleRA^IN 16:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

See WP:RFP to request protection. Russeasby 16:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Pie.. It is essential to Thanksgiving. 70.224.69.224 (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Provide links to complete texts of Washington's, Adam's, Thanksgiving Proclaimations

I would like to suggest a link offered to the full text of each President's Thanksgiving proclamations. As I read the quotes included in the article, I find myself wanting to read more on the historical perspective of how earlier generations perceived themselves as receipients of God's providence and their resulting reaction of gratitude and thankfulness. Netmer0 20:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

That would make for a lot of links and I think a bit too much for this article, however a list could be made in a separate article and linked to from here. I agree it would make an interesting list and worthwhile. I took a look on wikisource and all of the recent proclamations are there, from present and dating back to Carter, but nothing earlier then that which I could find (was surprised that ones made by the founding fathers were not there). What I did find wasn't organized to make finding them easy, so putting such a list together will take some effort by a dedicated wikipedian. Russeasby 21:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Sarah Josepha Hale

I was wondering if it is appropriate for Sarah Hale to be mentioned in the effort to get Thanksgiving declared as a permanent American National Holiday? It seems that her role was instrumental in getting Lincoln to make the necessary proclamation. Previous to 1863, she had been waging a campaign to the various State Governors to make similar proclamations. A search of "Thankgiving" in American Memory section of the Library of Congress' website will yield an entry for Sarah Hale that shows her letter to Lincoln and the various articles that she had previously wrote on the subject. I am not sure this link will work, but you can find it here: Sarah J. Hale to Abraham Lincoln Zhafnium 22:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning... but it's already in Thanksgiving (United States). Is that enough? --Midnightdreary 16:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a blatant contradiction between the line that says "After 1815 there were no more Thanksgiving Proclamations" and all of the rest of the piece with the Lincoln Proclamation and the 1941 law that establishes the fourth Thursday in November as the official Thanksgiving holiday. John F. Kennedy, to name just one, made a Thanksgiving Proclamation. But I see that those of us who wanted the site protected from "vandals" have won out and it is no longer possible to modify even blatant mistakes like this one. I believe wikipedia is sufficiently protected by its very watchful and, in my experience, honest administrators and am personally against such "protection". --Alenux (talk) 15:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The National Thanksgiving Proclamations

Bold text According to an April 1, 1864, letter from John Nicolay, one of President Lincoln's secretaries, this document was written by Secretary of State William Seward, and the original was in his handwriting. On October 3, 1863, fellow Cabinet member Gideon Welles recorded in his diary that he complimented Seward on his work. A year later the manuscript was sold to benefit Union troops.

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People.I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverance's and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

William H. Seward, Secretary of State Stanleybadams (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)Stanley.B.Adams Historian and Theologian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanleybadams (talk • contribs) 12:46, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Seasonal Celebration

I believe that the article could use significantly more information on the seasonal relevance of the Thanksgiving traditions. Certain foods are mentioned, but no association is made with celebration of a successful harvest (late-season foods). With the current emphasis on "happy" meals, communal conversation about individual gratitudes, and the implied divine favor upon the European colonists, it seems like the only thing missing is a soundfile playing "God Bless America" and a slideshow of Norman Rockwell paintings. This language certainly deserves a place in the article since it is part of the holiday's tradition, but currently there is no information at all about the seasonal relevance of the Thanksgiving holiday in the context of an intensively agrarian culture. --Raphite 04:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Days off

It says that schools generally give a four day weekend. Well, in my district anyway, it's a five day weekend. So I would just change it to "Four or five day weekend" but it's locked, so I'm just putting this here so someone else can change it. --LittleBeast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.72.218 (talk) 03:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

well not all districts have 4 - 5 days some have 3 or even 2. Parker1297 ( Talk to me · Sign my autograph page.) 15:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Please clean up United States-First thanksgiving

Under United states - first thanksgiving it says "On November 19, 2007, President George W. Bush gave the traditional Thanksgiving address at Berkeley Plantation in Charles City County, Virginia." this is not relevant to the First American thanksgiving and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyg5 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Problems with Virginia as "First Thanksgiving"

First - As pointed out in the article Thanksgiving was celebrated in what is now known as Canada before the U.S.. Furthermore, the celebration was done in the English Colonies (Of which both the Canada geographic area and the Virginia geographic area was a part of). So "First Thanksgiving" under U.S. is simply wrong on many different degrees. Please fix.

Second - How much importance should be placed on the continuation of an "annual" celebration? A few dinners of thanks does not make a tradition. The fact that the colony was destroyed weakens the claim further. A more accurate article would highlight that a specific number of dinners of thanks had been celebrated in Virginia before it was discontinued (unless the Thanksgiving was continued at Jamestown). To be fair, the article should also highlight other places that also celebrated a few dinners of thanks before discontinuing, or else the article is simply mis-leading. Please either provide the supporting data points of a continuation of Thanksgiving in Virginia, or amend the article.

Alternative View

This article suggests one of the reasons started to fair better was a change from communal to private farming. The Tragedy of the Commons

Perhaps something along these lines should be mentioned in the article if it can be corroborated with other sources. --Jayson Virissimo (talk) 05:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article should be disputed: Especially in light of revelations expressed here: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/21/121940/52 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.145.235.135 (talk) 05:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this section blatantly expresses a POV. Someone was trying to promote capitalism and denigrate communism. It should be edited to reflect the facts only, with neutral language. --Skylights76 (talk) 03:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Despite the fact I revile Communism, I have to agree. It's a page about a holiday. Just write about the holiday. Please. Do we really have to make this difficult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.20.12 (talk) 23:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge(?) Needed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

{{merge|Thanksgiving|Thanksgiving (United States)|Thanksgiving (Canada)}}

Current articles: Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving (United States), Thanksgiving (Canada) Thanksgiving provides a watered-down version of the history of the holiday. All of the information and more may be found in the Thanksgiving (United States) article. The same goes for the canadian holiday. Thanksgiving (Canada) is almost a stub, but it has more information than the Canada section of the Thanksgiving article. These articles need to be consolidated somehow. That could be done by getting rid of Thanksgiving entirely (no pun intended), and turning it into a redirect, or by combining the U.S. and Canadian holidays from Thanksgiving (United States) and Thanksgiving (Canada), and putting them in the one "Thanksgiving" article. 24.128.245.163 (talk) 15:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• Agree, having three articles is confusing and unnecessary. I favor turning this page into a simple disambiguation page, and merging all the the relevant content should be merged into the two separate articles. Cogswobbletalk 23:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
• Agree 75.57.133.20 (talk) 04:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
• Agree with the first option. Turn the Thanksgiving article into a disambig, keep the US and Canada articles seperate as the holidays have different origins, dates, and degree of importance within each culture.--Boffob (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed Talk: Thanksgiving (United States)#Merge with Thanksgiving? already had a discussion of this and it also seems to favour the disambig option, it just hasn't been done.--Boffob (talk) 13:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• Agree? There was no clear option presented, so I'm not sure what I'm agreeing with... I was the person who originally split Thanksgiving into Thanksgiving (United States) and Thanksgiving (Canada). At that point, Thanksgiving became a simple disambiguation page. Then somebody suggested having a couple of paragraphs of basic, generic information on that page, which seemed like a good idea. It ballooned from there. I suggest removing all country-specific information from Thanksgiving (except perhaps the dates of U.S. and Canadian Thanksgivings), and making Thanksgiving a "stub"-like article: one or two paragraphs of generic info, with prominent links to the national articles. —P^urpleRA^IN 15:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Since there seems to be agreement here, I went ahead and removed the U.S.- and Canadian-specific info from the Thanksgiving article, and pointed to the country-specific articles instead. I hope I wasn't too hasty. If anyone thinks I acted rashly, please feel free to revert, and we can discuss further.

I thought about keeping a paragraph for each of the countries, but I realized that was what contributed to the bloat in the first place. There was one paragraph, and people decided to expand on it instead of clicking through to the country-specific article. —P^urpleRA^IN 16:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Fwiw, I think it looks better now, both this page and the US page. Lejman (talk) 18:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stolen land

Can someone remove the inciteful "stolen land" reference? It currently reads "Thanksgiving has been criticised as celebrating the genocide of Native Americans, in order to make way for European Colonisation. The United States was stolen from the natives who lived there, and with it their culture was almost destroyed." --Norepinephrine (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the truth, as offensive as it may be. It would be biased not to put it in. --User:Reapermage1990 (talk) 22:27, 22 November 2007 (GMT)

It's not "the truth". The fact that some criticise it is truth, but North America wasn't "stolen". --99.246.135.97 (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The New World was taken by force from the Indians.--User:Reapermage1990 (talk) 22:27, 22 November 2007 (GMT)

The history of stolen land, genocide, etc., is of course true, and of course it is also true that there may very well be zero people anywhere on the planet whose ancestors did not displace someone else. I am aware that such events may have a special relevance to Thanksgiving since it marks a formative time during the European colonization of North America, but unless criticism of the holiday for this reason reaches a level that is generally noticeable, I don't think it really has a place in this article with its currently limited breadth and length. As the article is expanded, these issues may become more appropriate for inclusion. --Raphite (talk) 02:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is. The article has a strong pro-thanksgiving bias, and nothing of its dark side. Celebrating Americanism, sure. But thanksgiving is nothing to do with thanks to the kind natives for dying for the glorious European pioneers and losing their land. *rolleyes* It at least warrants a tiny mention, so as to not portray the holiday as simply a harmless celebration of US Nationalism. Reapermage1990 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

criticism

Every year the Nation runs an article about the bloody side of Thanksgiving: giving thanks for victory after massacring the Pequot, etc. I was expecting to see some of that here, or perhaps counter-claims that this is exaggeration, but instead it reads like what I was taught in kindergarten. Certainly the idea of Thanksgiving as at least historically a celebration of conquest is widespread enough to warrant mention? kwami (talk) 11:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

In the section above I suggested that the article is probably not ready for material on imperialism/genocide/etc., but if you could find some good references to articles (journalists, scholarly, etc.) like the one you mentioned, a section on the subject might actually be able to survive an edit war. --Raphite (talk) 21:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Patriotic Mythology

This article reflects the patriotic mythology taught in junior high schools in place of history. It will cause others in the world, who did not attend US junior high school, to question the credibility of Wikipedia and, perhaps unfairly, that of current US historians. It should be removed. --Kjb (talk) 00:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I cannot agree more. The article looks like a propaganda pamphlet. There is no section like History or anything. Consider this statement:

"This is a tradition that started when the first European settlers arrived in America, in search of freedom." When the fuck did that happen? 1000 BC? And is Thanksgiving a holiday for "search of freedom"? One would think that such a main stream topic (it is nearly everywhere in American Media - movies, TV series) would atleast be readable.--18jahremädchen (talk) 22:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Additional references are needed. Additionally, linking to http://www.oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html is a little questionable. It's a very biased page, and I hope that there's something else that can be linked to from wikipedia. I understand that there are some people who are very sensitive about the culture of North American peoples before Europeans arrived, but this is not encyclopedic as a source or cross-reference, and only barely as a additional reference. Poorly written et cetera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TodaysPitch (talk • contribs) 04:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambig

This page is really ment to be a disambig page with breif descriptions of the different thanksgivings and links to the corresponding US and Canadian main pages. Yet it keeps growing (and the link to the main US page seems to have been removed at some point from this page). So much has been added though that I certainly dont want to undertake the process of merging the articles now. But I am tempted to return this page to its intended state and allow someone more abitious to go through history and undertake the merger. If no one objects here I will probably be doing this soon. Russeasby (talk) 13:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you! As a Swede who has never been to North America, I know little about thanksgiving, so I don't feel comfortable editing the article. Still, the entire article looks... weird. I'm mostly reacting to the order of how the sections have been placed (and by all means why the sections have been chosen). The introduction seems good enough, but after that... the introduction says it started in Canada... so I expect a history section, or description of Canadian thanksgiving, or, possibly, how Canadian thanksgiving developed into US thanksgiving. But it just starts discussing US thanksgiving. The (long) section 'The National Thanksgiving Proclamations' seems very US focused, making me wonder why isn't it in Thanksgiving (United States) instead. Lejman (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I have just done as you suggested. See my comments in this section above. —P^urpleRA^IN 16:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Style, Time of Day, Protocol

"Thanksgiving dinner is done in the evening, usually as a gathering of friends and/or family. At this time you say all your thanks and wishes."

First, who says it's "done" (eaten?) in the evening? It's quite common -- perhaps even MORE common -- to eat in the afternoon.

Second, who is "you"? That's really bad style. It should be "one." Also, this makes it sound like everyone says "thanks and wishes". In my experience, most people just eat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.177.184 (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

North American holiday ?

Thanksgiving is not a North American holiday. I have never seen it begin celebrated in Mexico. Please change it to 'Thanksgiving Day, is a traditional United States of America and Canadian holiday' for accuracy.

I believe it means cultural North America (aka English/French speaking North America) as opposed to cultural Latin America. So don't change a thing59.38.32.9 (talk) 09:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Who is talking about Latin America at all ?. I'm talking about the definition of North America. If you go to the North America wikipedia page you can clearly see a map that includes Mexico. Where Thanksgiving is not a holiday. This articule is currently wrong as written. What's the problem of begin accurate and changing the name to Canada and USA ?

Because nobody cares, and it would take longer to say "The United States of America and Canada".

Who's to say? I don't know, but a lot of Mexicans do reside in US (and probably Canada), so yeah. Yes, "North America" is a rather broad term which includes Canada, US, and even Iceland, but the term is almost always used to just point to USA. A bit tricky and unfair, but don't ask me, that's just how it is. Anyway, changed anyhow. ★Dasani★ 03:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

External link error

{{editsemiprotected}} The external link to http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=3974&terms=Thank+but+no+thanks is Thanks but No Thanks". The correct article title is Thanks, but No Thanks? which conveys an entirely different meaning. Could someone fix that please?

 Done Skier Dude (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Grammar Issue

Please change "It is primarily a United States and Canada holiday ..." to something more grammatically correct, such as: "It is a holiday celebrated primarily in Canada and the United States." At least, "Canada" in that context should be written "Canadian" - there are Canadian holidays, but no Canada holidays, just as there are American holidays but no America holidays. Also, the phrase "which has generally become a national secular holiday with religious origins" should be (if included at all) changed to something like "While perhaps religious in origin, Thanksgiving is now primarily identified as a secular holiday" (since it cannot have recently "become" a holiday with religious origins).156.101.9.1 (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

a thankgiving article sould have prayers in it and alot more pics--Nascar09 (talk) 03:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanksgiving is one of the hoildays that a family get together and be grateful that the family is together.to me thanksgiving is not a hoilday to give thanks its a celebration of the family getting together woth love in there hearts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.243.15.103 (talk) 23:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Robyn Gioia?

An elementary school teacher isn't an appropriate authority on history. Would someone remove the reference to Robyn Gioia in the article introduction? 94.37.244.161 (talk) 13:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Although she may be basing this on some authoritative opinions, nothing in the cited references gives a good reason to think her particular opinion is authoritative (not a slight against school teachers but the references don't give any reason to think that she personally has done research and is an expert in the matter). --Mcorazao (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised by the prominence of this opinion. I cant find any evidence of her prominence as a historian. Writerofstuff (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

What is this article about?

The scope of this article seems very confused. It seems to be partially disambig and partially informative. As a disambig it seems very focused on North America even as it mentions celebrations in other parts of the world. So is it about the North American tradition. Even in the realm of North America it focuses a lot on the U.S. tradition seeming to imply that the Canadian tradition is entirely derivative of the U.S. tradition. I don't believe that this is the case, is it? If it is the article should say so and cite. If not the U.S.-centricism needs to be removed.

--Mcorazao (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Other national holidays of Thanksgiving

Please note in this article that the Solomon Islands celebrates Thanksgiving day on Dec 26. That nation used to celebrate Boxing Day on that date, but changed it to Thanksgiving Day as it better reflected the cultures of the nation of Solomon Islands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.1.163.174 (talk) 02:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Canada celebrates Thanksgiving?

Why?Profhum (talk) 18:03, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Same reason the US celebrates it. Don't forget, 300 years ago there was no Canada and the US. There was only British North America. Many traditions are exactly the same in both countries.

First Thanksgivings

I believe this article would be enhanced by mentioning that Berkeley Plantation on the James River in Virginia also lays claim to the first observance of Thanksgiving on December 4, 1619. This is consistent with the information found on the Berkeley Plantation page in Wikipedia, which includes two sources substantiating (if not confirming) the claim.

I don't think it is necessary for Wikipedia to be the final arbiter of which claim is correct, but it is helpful to identify the various claims.

--Rpalme01 (talk) 13:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

El Paso likes to claim that the conquistador Cabeza de Vaca had a thanksgiving meal with the Indians when he crossed the Rio Grande in 1583. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.37.192 (talk) 00:59, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Who are these Native Americans?

No one seems to mention the tribe that is responsible for this holiday.

It was the Wampanoag Tribe of Cape Cod who 'welcomed' the 'Pilgrams', taught them to fish, hunt, etc., and in return their lands were stolen and the tribe nearly decimated to extinction. The Wampanoag Tribe. Remember that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.179.57 (talk) 17:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

American folklore vs. American myth

Please consider the sentence "The celebration became an important part of the American myth by the 1800s.[citation needed]" The prelude to this sentence is about two separate historic activities of thanksgiving and the term "celebration" could refer to either.

The link in the sentence is not actually to American myth, but rather to Folklore of the United States. By using the word "myth", the author of this sentence inserted through definition the bias of fictitious fabrication. Folklore generally refers to traditional tales from the past that may or may not be fictitious. It could imply mythology, but not necessarily. The linked article mentions the Pilgrims as one of the "founding myths" of American folklore and cultural awareness, but in the article the term "founding myth" is both quoted and reserved for three subjects only, all three of which were historic rather than fictitious. It would therefore be more accurate in the sentence in question to change "American myth" to "American folklore" and remove any allusion to fictitious events. This could be confusing.

I have been unable to find any specific, authoritative reference to the claim that the celebration had become unofficially important "by the 1800s" as the sentence seems to imply. However, it is quite easy to support that local celebrations of thanksgiving were sporadically celebrated from the earlier historic references up through the presidency of George Washington and beyond.

For all of the above I propose a correction, but first I would also point out that the sentence itself is out of place. The previous sentences specifically refer to the traditional "first Thanksgiving" at Plymouth, Massachucetts in 1621 and to the Thanksgiving at Berkley Plantation, Virginia in 1619; the sentence following references the Thanksgiving "generally regarded as America's first." It is up to the reader to decide which of the two the entry is referencing as "America's first." But whichever it is, any reference to American myth or folklore most assuredly must follow the sentence alluding to the "first" Thanksgiving. I would therefore offer the following rewrite of the sentence in question, to be relocated to follow the phrase "generally regarded as America's first":

The early colonial thanksgiving feast became an important part of American folklore and local celebrations were popular enough that in 1789 a Congressional Joint Committee approved and President George Washington proclaimed that a national day of Thanksgiving be observed on Thursday, November 26.Thanksgiving in North America: From Local Harvests to National Holiday

Since I am not privileged to edit the entry, I shall leave my proposal up to whomever is so priveleged. Historicrecord (talk) 18:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC) Historicrecord (talk) 02:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

anand escalation lead

Thanksgiving and Native Americans

Even if relations were too often atrocious -- even genocidal -- between european colonists and those whose ancestors happened to have reached the Americas thousands of years earlier, I think the joint celebration of the first Thanksgiving is one of the holiday's key features. It reveals a more hopeful vision of possibilities in the New World. It is a model of people getting along together despite differences in language, belief systems, material culture, etc. Even if relationships between different communities have often been harsh, this isn't the whole story. Thanksgiving embodies a more benign vision: the possibility that relationships between different peoples aren't necessarily a grim zero-sum game of competition for limited resources. Instead there may be much to be gained through cooperation and learning from one another. While Native Americans -- those lucky enough to survive wars and epidemics anyhow -- undoubtedly benefited from moving from the stone age pretty far into the iron age, their material culture also contained a tremendous amount that helped europeans survive and prosper in the new environment. LADave (talk) 03:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Along the same lines, who were the hosts and who were the guests? Massasoit ordered several of the Indian delegation to go hunting, and they returned with several deer. This enabled festivities to continue several days longer.

In the larger sense, Pilgrims were guests in America. They came grossly under-prepared and could not have survived the first winter without the Indians donating food from their winter reserves. Indians indulged Pilgrims in this way, thinking a people so few and inept could not possibly pose a threat. Probably a great blunder in hindsight, but at the time it was difficult for Indians to fully grasp the advantages Europeans held in the forthcoming struggle. LADave (talk) 16:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC) Why did the pilgrims invite the Native Americans to their thanksgiving? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.91.216.220 (talk) 17:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Sentence

This sentence should contain "its" and not "it's" : To avoid the two holidays from clashing with one another, in 1957 the Canadian Parliament proclaimed Thanksgiving to be observed on it's present date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikkeklok (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Ineville, 5 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

the nationality of Grenada is Grenadian. The 'i' is missing in the article.

Ineville (talk) 00:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 01:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

[Removed a cut and paste version of an essay that is protected by copyright]. Invertzoo (talk) 20:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Our Thanks to Hill & Holler Column by Susan Bates susanbates@webtv.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.185.253.46 (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanksgiving in Australia

FYI,

Australians do not celebrate Thanksgiving. To claim they do is incorrect. The specific claim that Australians celebrate Thanksgiving on May 29 is false. A google search shows up only one organisation, National Day of Thanksgiving, that promotes such a celebration but even then is a private, obviously religious group with an agenda. There is no proclamation of a Thanksgiving Day in Australia and no increasing tradition amongst our nation to celebrate this day. The references to Australian Thanksgiving should be removed.

Cheers, PR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulromas (talk • contribs) 15:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanksgiving is a North American (Canadian & American) tradition. Australians do not celebrate Thanksgiving. 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

AUSTRALIA???

There is NO official Thanksgiving holiday in Australia. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100906181443AAkBogP

The reference to Australia should be removed in order to protect the informational integrity of Wikipedia 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Australia should be removed as a nation that celebrates Thanksgiving. This is a North American holiday with many years of established tradition. The US & Canada have both designated Thanksgiving as a national holiday and to say Australia is 'increasingly' celebrating this holiday does not fit with the tradition and the origins of its original North American conception. That would be like me saying "Canada and the US are increasingly celebrating ANZAC day." Australia does not celebrate Thanksgiving, period. 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Solomon Islands

according to the French Wikipedia, there is a "Thanksgiving" in the Solomon Islands. It uses this reference: http://www.marktheday.com/nationholidaydates/slb_nationaldayofthanksgiving.aspx?source=10554

76.66.200.95 (talk) 07:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I found the article to be confusing as it was. I tried yesterday to make it less confusing by dividing it into sections and cleaning it up a little bit. It does not look great with all of these subdivisions, but at least it is easier to know what you are looking at. Someone else may want to take it from here and expand the sections or merge them and make the prose sequence a lot clearer. Thanks, Invertzoo ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk