Talk:Chelsea Manning

Edit request on 5 December 2011

The statement about partially edited because correctly referenced should be considered incorrect - the lose control statement in the last paragraph is the opinion of a single reporter and is used to heavily bias this portion of the article, I agree with the suggested change.

Under Enlistment in the U.S. Army and deployment to Iraq, please change:

"While at Fort Drum, Manning had already begun to lose control, according to Steve Fishman in New York magazine, falling out with roommates, and screaming at superior officers. He said he was being bullied for being gay, and by August 2009 had been referred to an Army mental-health counsellor.[10] In October 2009, despite the doubts about his fitness to be deployed, he was sent to Iraq with the 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division, based at Forward Operating Base Hammer, near Baghdad. His unhappiness and loneliness continued there. "

to:

"While at Fort Drum, Manning said he was being bullied for being gay. In August 2009, he was referred to an Army mental-health counselor.[10] In Octobter 2009, he was sent to Iraq with the 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division, based at Forward Operating Base Hammer, near Baghdad."

because:

It is misleading to use highly biased terms such as "already begun to lose control" to imply that Manning's unhappiness in the military was related to the alleged leaking of classified documents. It seems otherwise clear that Manning was happy with the military for some time, and that he may have been unhappy due to being bullied and breaking up with his ex, but there is no proven correlation between his personal unhappiness and any ostensible resentment toward the military. Meanwhile, there is ample evidence (in the alleged chat logs, released by Wired magazine) that Manning's motives for allegedly releasing classified documents were political in nature - he is quoted extensively as saying he hoped the release would inspire change, reforms, worldwide discussions, and the like. If the chatlogs are indeed his, he named certain injustices within the cables (like the "Collateral Murder" video) as abhorrent abuses that the public needed to see. There is no clear correlation between those observations and any personal emotional distress, and it is therefore deceptive to suggest otherwise.

Nathanlfuller (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

 Partly done: Removed the term "already" because that does imply that his unhappiness was linked to the leak. However, the rest of the paragraph is correctly referenced information and so has been left as-is.--Hazel77 ^talk 18:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Manning and GID - article as stands violates MOS:IDENTITY

Hey folks. The media (e.g. ABC news) has reported that Cpl Manning suffers from Gender Identity Disorder. In line with Wikipedia's policy on this, we should be alert and ready to make the changes necessary to the article (e.g. correcting names and pronouns or avoiding them where possible). I expect some degree of conflict to arise over this.

Pro immediate change:

• The source seems pretty clear, and a bit of scouting around seems to verify this.
• The chat logs from Adriam Lamo (not a reputable source) credit Manning as having described a male identity becoming famous in the media as an extremely bad thing. It is... on the verge of abusive to leave the article as it is; even if we admit uncertainty it's not worth the risk to not change things.

Con immediate change:

• MOS:IDENTITY states "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.". However, it's not clear that Manning has **publically** expressed a self-identification.

Suggestion:

• Move Bradley Manning to Corporal Manning ASAP, leaving a redirect from Bradley Manning and Breanna Manning. This would be compatible with Chastity Bono being a redirect to Chaz Bono, and could be updated later.

I welcome input, and if I receive none I shall undertake these changes as soon as I am able. 7daysahead (talk) 16:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC) (Psh, should have logged in first.)

A new article on Manning would not be appropriate. WP:NAMES gives guidance how we use the names of individuals. He is "Bradley Manning". His rank, presently Private First Class, is not part of his name. (Nor would "Corporal" be appropriate for his name, much less article title.) Moreover, this is simply an Article 32 hearing, much like a grand jury hearing. It will be interesting to see if this defense is asserted in trial.

In other words, hold on to your horses. There is no urgency that raises this question to an "ASAP" status.--S. Rich (talk) 21:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Further MOS:IDENTITY isn't policy, it is just a guideline which in this case I would IAR as it is poorly derived. Quite frankly, I don't care what he prefers...that is his conflict; not ours (he is the one who is confused). The courts shall be using "he" - so should we. He might also decide that he is royalty and prefer styling such as "Royal Highness" but that too would be succinctly ignored.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 22:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Berean Hunter: Frankly, I don't care if you care what Manning prefers. Wikipedia has a style guide which precludes transphobia.

I'll hold off making any drastic changes at the moment, but might start cleaning up the pronouns where it's possible to do so. 7daysahead (talk) 01:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

You lack consensus. I'm not transphobic and I don't mind calling Chaz Bono a "he".
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 01:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Not to over-eagerly assume bad faith, but to me the original comment smacks of transphobia. It is quite a leap to call a trans-identified individual "confused," and any inconsistencies between the current article and the subject's gender identification most certain are our problem. In addition to violating good style, it provides a misrepresentation of the subject on what is an evolving news story of increasing prominence. I may not be as versed in policy as some, but it seems the most appropriate and tactful direction to take would be un-gendering the article (moving the article to "B. Manning with both Breanna Manning and Bradley Manning redirecting, using gender neutral language, etc) and adding a subsection about her current GID defense. As the story evolves, the article could be changed to reflect that evolution. But, as the story stands, it would be prudent to remove what current evidence suggests is a complete misgendering of the articles subject. Also, for someone who just cited IAR, it seems strange to demand consensus. Mr. G. Williams (talk) 01:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

No, prudence would dictate waiting as S. Rich has stated. With a discussion going on here, it would be disruptive if 7days flew in the face of it and attempted to enforce his will on everyone else. And no, we can throw out nearly everything you have said (it is your bad faith). It is his attorneys who have stated that he is gender-confused, "The alleged WikiLeaker's lawyers argue that the Army should never have given an emotionally unstable, gender-confused soldier access to state secrets" (Yahoo news), and "His defence lawyer, David Coombs, highlighted emails his client had sent to a superior officer explaining that confusion about his gender identity was impacting on his ability to do his job." (from BBC). Since they also indicate that he is emotionally unstable, confused and prepping an insanity plea then no, we don't need to placate him.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 02:22, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I feel like the real concern here is maintaining NPOV in an increasingly controversial story rather than placating Manning. While the circumstances surrounding the release of information regarding Manning's gender identity are dubious at best, a number of the sources (some fairly credible) fairly clearly show Manning preferring female identification. The way the media handles Manning's gender identity is very rapidly becoming news itself. I feel like by continuing the use of male identification we are-- inadvertently-- taking a side. An article that avoids gendered language wouldn't be incorrect or poor style in either circumstance, whether it turns out that Manning's gender identification issues have been misrepresented by the defense or not. A gender neutral article is neither politicized nor misleading: it is simply careful. Edit: Also, I recognize my first comment was unfairly aggressive. Sorry.Mr. G. Williams (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

We are taking a side - ours. We have a policy of using what is stated in reliable sources and policies generally trump guidelines. Since mainstream sources are using "he" then that is what we should continue to use. If & when usage of "she" predominates in mainstream sources then we can revisit this argument. NPOV is using what is stated in reliable sources. (Btw, neither of your links above were working so I've adjusted them in good faith...and apology accepted (no problem :).
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 03:11, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Issues to consider: 1. Has a formal psychiatric diagnosis of gender identity disorder been made? If not, it's probably inappropriate for us to launch into a "he vs she"/"his vs her" pronoun debate. 2. Has Manning declared gender one way or the other? Again, if no declaration it's inappropriate to change the existing pronoun usage. 3. Even if he actually has the disorder, is it appropriate to make changes absent some declaration from Manning?

Seems to me that the purported defense (at this stage) is simply a trial balloon. (There is a lot of evidence showing that he released the info improperly.) So if it works, then fine. At that point, when Manning comes out, we can change the pronouns in the article.--S. Rich (talk) 03:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Manning has made it clear on a number of occasions that she's a trans woman, In the 2010 chats with Lamo she said she doesn't want to be known as a boy, and now a number of respected media outlets have reported that her defense has identified her as "Breanna" to the court, here and here. Also, the talk of needing a "diagnosis" could come across quite offensively. Cisgendered people don't need a "diagnosis" of their gender, because your gender isn't a disease that needs diagnosis.Redchiron (talk) 13:04, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

You are trying too hard to make/assist Manning with the gender transformation. The two articles you linked do not have his defense referring or identifying Manning as Breanna. The Twitter name was a handle/username/alternate name. Lots of people have alter-egos, fantasy life, etc. The defense has raised the disorder as a defense -- they may be pushing for a "diminished capacity" or "insanity defense". None of this means Manning has actually transformed or declared as transformation. So it's premature for us to change pronouns, much less create a new article.--S. Rich (talk) 15:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

(realigned to left for readability.) Redchiron is suggesting changing Manning's pronouns to female - I disagree with this because Manning has not made any public statement; Mr G. Williams and I are suggesting that the article be made as gender-neutral as possible. This would not reduce its accuracy or make it less readable and satisfies S. Rich's three earlier questions ("1. Has a...?"), so I don't see any current explicit objections to this.

In the setting of a court the defense may well be obliged to refer to Manning by their legal gender, so your last point doesn't hold water, S. Rich.

(Berean Hunter, I am female: Please don't call me 'he' again. Always worth pointing out, but in this context...). 7daysahead (talk) 15:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, very relevant: Sonia Burgess redirects to David Burgesss - (Burgess was female socially but male professionally) and the article uses no pronouns at all. Redchiron, short of an explicit statement from Manning, you and I are unable to know that Manning doesn't have a gender identity like that of Burgess; female pronouns are inappropriate in general. 7daysahead (talk) 15:38, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, we use what the mainstream reliable sources use. I suggest we let this discussion roll for at least a week to allow time for other editors to comment.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Certainly it should be so. I'm sure you acted in good faith, but I do ask that you apologise for misgendering me. 7daysahead (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Now that you've informed him that you are female, Berean Hunter knows not to call you a "he" again. AzureCitizen (talk) 19:11, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This discussion seems to rapidly be moving into the "too cranky to function" territory. It's probably best for everyone to step back and wait for either more viewpoints or for more news to be released. Also, in the event that Manning were to make a public statement or a court statement (I assume statements are given in an article 32; I don't know much about the actual proceedings of courts martial) affirming a female identity, how are we planning to move from there? It might be best to have a consensus before the fact so that edits can be made quickly to keep the article up to date. Since Manning would still hold the legal name "Bradley" and would also be publicly known as such, the article could probably reasonably stay at its current location while female pronouns could be used throughout the article. Perhaps change the lead to "Breanna Manning (born Bradley Manning on December 17, 1987)..." Of course, this is all acting on the presumption that an on-record statement by Manning is sufficient grounds for altering the article's gender-usage-- I would take such as event as hard evidence of a changed gender identity and consequently grounds for altering the article. Mr. G. Williams (talk) 19:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no rush; this is going to take time. Our policy concerning common names mandates that Wikipedia follow what is prevalent in reliable sources. It would be interesting to see what the mainstream media do if & when all this comes to light. If they trend in the direction of using gender-neutral or female pronouns then there is reason to consider changing the WP article; if they don't change their use of the "he" pronoun then there is no reason to do so here regardless of Manning's declarations (that he hasn't made yet). We use these policies so that we avoid advocacy issues and people trying to right great wrongs.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 20:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

You're saying we got to wait for the news media to respect trans rights to stop misgendering Manning by changing the article's heading and pronouns... Practically, you are saying that wikipedia will never refer to Breanna as she clearly prefers. 108.64.133.132 (talk) 20:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that Breanna hasn't publicly said she wants to be identified as a woman. The online discussion with Lamo refered to in the wiki article on her makes it quite slear that she wished to be identified as female 18 months ago.

"1:13:10 PM Manning: i just ... dont wish to be a part of it ... at least not now ... im not ready ... i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as [a] boy ..." The reason why this is coming up now instead of earlier is because until the defense released the information (very recently), we did not know what name to use to refer to her! I also tend to think that the mainstream media tend to use a bad editorial practice of referring to trans women as "he" sometimes, which is quite abusive and disrespectful, and while we wait for mainstream view on current events, we shouldn't follow the bad editorial practices of corporate media. It's hardly "righting a great wrong" to use respectful language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redchiron (talk • contribs) 04:14, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't read too much into his/her comments w/ Llamo. Was s/he saying "boy vs. man" or "boy vs. girl" or "boy vs. woman" or what? (IOW, the statement is unclear.)

Whether or not mainstream media is correct in its' commentary or view is not the point. We are Wikipedians, and we strive for a NPOV and encyclopedic perspective. We use the news a a Reliable Source. We do not undertake our own synthesis to figure out what is going on with the defense that Manning is presenting. This is particularly true in that we do not put our perspective/synthesis into the article.

Keep in mind that news reports indicate that Manning's defense is merely alluding to GID. (They may be laying out the ground-work for presentation at court-martial.) My guess (not to be incorporated into this article) is they think a sort of diminished capacity would mitigate the penalty upon conviction. Still, the defense would have to present expert testimony to prove this up. (Moreover, a jury of Manning's peers -- fellow soldiers -- would not have much sympathy with this defense so it's hard to figure out what they are doing!)

What do we do for now? It's easy -- sit tight! If or when Manning comes out and says the proper gender is female, then we can start switching pronouns. But first let's get something explicit from her/him.

And here is something else to chew on. If Manning said his/her gender is no longer male, then the jailers would have to isolate Manning from the male inmate population. And are there confinement facilities for female military detainees? If there are, the female inmates would likely object to the female/male gender ID'd/confused/wishful/transformed Manning being put into their midst. (That would be a miserable solitary confinement of his/her own making.) What about the issues of intersex, transgender, third gender, etc.? The military has enough on its' hands defending the nation: e.g, their focus on fighting war (a fairly serious subject) is difficult enough!

Again, give this issue some time. It will work itself out.--S. Rich (talk) 05:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)06:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a well known issue that criminals that are gender variant present a problem for justice systems; I think that's wandering into discussing the situation rather than discussing the article. I also don't see any such ambiguity - Manning was plainly referring to 'boy vs girl' in the chat log.

I think a useful way for Wikipedians to think of this is to remember that when discussing a person's gender, there is one reliable source - the person themself. We currently have conflicting information (unverified chat logs and defense statements, both of which are from Manning almost direct but are ambiguous, versus 'reliable' media with endemic misgendering of trans* subjects) and the article choses very strongly to gender Manning male. The article has made a choice which is unjustified based on the reliability of the sources available. In fact, the tertiary sources contradict themselves - they state that Manning says "Manning is not unambiguously male" and then they go on to state "Manning is unambiguously male".

And BLP means we should strive for accuracy sooner rather than later. 7daysahead (talk) 13:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I am weakly in favour of moving the article, but only weakly as per WP:NORUSH. I would note that any information presented to the wider world is going to be heavily filtered by what the various legal staff involved, including those working for Manning, regard as prudent and probably should not be regarded as credible until tested in court. (Unfortunately, although the released information might help Manning, the whole "Gender Dysphoria is confusing so they couldn't do their job" line is something I hope get thoroughly discredited). I would strongly support using gender-neutral phraseology where possible as it's sensitive to the issue. This isn't mentioned as an option in MOS:IDENTITY but I disagree with that anyway and it is not policy. as has been mentioned above. ~Excesses~ (talk) 23:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Graham Nash song

sorry if i upset the ppls of wiki, (thanks to HiLo48 for directing me here) I am unsure why a song about the alleged file leaker of wiki leaks, Bradley Manning, would be seen as unneccessary. but to make my arguement, the song is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD0t4gNGx-8 and if you needed additional confirmation the song exists and is about Manning you can find it at Nash's site http://grahamnash.com/almost-gone hope this clears everything up