Talk:Summertime (George Gershwin song)

Jeesus

This article needs to be wiped clean and started fresh. It is beyond repair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.254.115 (talk) 08:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

List of artists who have covered the song Summertime

...moved to User:Zanimum/List of artists who have covered Gershwin songs. —Viriditas | Talk 13:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

spell error or not?

"Summertime" vies with the Beatles' "Yesterday" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaapkroe (talk • contribs).

Huh? Powers ^T 21:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Just came over after hearing it on the radio...

...and what a bloody mess of an article. I've had a go but it still needs work.Totnesmartin 22:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

with all due respect

The invitation to expand the list of artists performing the song in question takes us from the sublime to the ridiculous. I see that an attempt has been made to do something about it User:Zanimum/List of artists who have covered Gershwin songs, but the invitation just encourages people to add to the list on the article page. Would it be politically incorrect to establish some kind of screening process whereby only those performers who have a an article on Wikipedia are included on the list, and all others are included on another, separate list? Obviously it might exclude a minority of outstanding performers who do not yet have such a page, but it would also exclude a far greater number of relatively insignificant figures, who like to sing this wonderful song in the shower. Look fwd to feedback on this. --Technopat 12:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

with all due respect 2

I would even go farther and state that is useless to add a list of artists to this article. As the group The Summertime Connection (of which I'm a member) maintains a full database which is daily updated but by definition not complete, why should that be copied here. We're talking about at least 13,000 artists and if somebody wants to have an impression how far humanity can go in murdering a song: a listen at Singshot is enough. Should all those people that even do not dare use their own name be mentioned on Wikepedia?--User:Edclusa 12:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm removing the list of people who have recorded it. —Viriditas | Talk 11:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems that the list with languages and the one with instruments has been removed too, I think that's a pity.--User:Edclusa 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The external links should serve that purpose. —Viriditas | Talk 13:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

No way, that's quite different, so I've added those once again--User:Edclusa 01.37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

In keeping with the general trend of this discussion, have deleted the following:

Floater (band) from Portland, Oregon performs the song during their live shows in a medley with their song "Medicine Woman" from their 1998 concept album Angels in the Flesh and Devils in the Bone. --Technopat 23:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

a mess with an agenda

This article is a complete mess. It seems it's been hijacked by a group of devotees and appears to be more about describing their work than actually talking about the song itself. The song has been covered by the likes of Billie Holiday and Nina Simone. As such nobody cares about "The Mimisikous Band" (????) or "Topi Sorsakoski" or "Henda" (p.s. 'Yugoslavian' is not a language!). It is sufficient to mention "The Summertime Connection" only once, in the external links. The section about "Montana Skies" is also unnecessarily detailed (IMO, unnecessary completely), and poorly worded.

Why I have reverted the latest "update"

First of all, if the update was made in good faith, please accept my apologies and revert my revert. But bear in mind at least some of the following points:

a) The Summertime Connection web site (external link) accessed today (see date and time by my signature) states the following:

At 27 July 2007 at 13.29 GMT we have 8,283 full recordings and about 1,100 samples and incomplete recordings of the 13,536 recordings of at least 19,800 performances.

b) If the update was taken from a "legitimate" source, it should be referenced accordingly. And said source should be easily accessible to any editor wishing to confirm content (i.e. a subscriber service might not be acceptable).

c) According to the update, there have been more public performances in the last (less than) month than the average annual number of performances since the song was written in 1935. Of course, while this is statistically possible ...

d) And last, but not least, the figures to which I have reverted may not be any more accurate than those which have been reverted.

--Technopat (talk) 14:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

this article sucks

Is it totally necessary to list all these different foreign language and foreign instrument versions? It's a common jazz standard, it probably gets played a thousand times a night around the world in different languages with different instruments. More specific complaints: "we mention at random one artist in the language" - we who? We, the wikipedia community at large? I've never seen the word "we" in an encyclopedia before. "About 25 electric cello's exist in this world" - wtf? Does this mean 25 recordings of Summertime by electric cellos or what? Why is this even worth mentioning? If someone out there just has to keep all this stuff on this article, can it at least be rewritten in a more encyclopedic style?

--Justyn7 (talk) 23:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

encycolpedic?

After the last edit, this article does not add anything anymore to what any reader knows about the song. It's a pity but I shall not revert to any older edition, if this is what Wikepedia is about (Wikipedia is an encyclopedia incorporating elements of general encyclopedias, specialized encyclopedias, and almanacs). Let me give one example: there's only one database in this world that contains data about that many performances of the song of which each and everyone has been verified. If that's not a source, then what is?Edclusa (talk) 09:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Moontitties???

You've got to be kidding me. MasonicLamb (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Have just deleted the following from the article:

A little known fact, is that the original name for the song was "Moontitties", but by fear that it would harm the opera's popularity, Gershwin was pressured into changing it to the name that we know today.

As the reference is not accessible, there is no way of checking if it is a legitimate one or not... However, my level of scepticism leads me to be wary of any sentence that begins with "A little known fact..." Please revert my edit if this is a mistake and accept my apologies. --Technopat (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Credits

I have added Dorothy Heyward to the list of credited lyricists: Both she and DuBose are credited in copyright along with the Gershwins, so presumably she contributed some lyrics (I admit it ain't necessarily so...)

Interestingly, Dorothy is credited but DuBose is not in the Wikipedia page about the Davis/Evans version; the LP credits both, as I believe is correct. The Armstrong/Fitzgerald page doesn't include credits.

Summertime is the only song in Porgy And Bess credited to all three lyricists as well as composer George Gershwin. MaherCoen (talk) 15:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess you got that wrong. According to Robin Rausch (play the video or read the transcript), it was Dorothy who claimed that the lyrics for summertime were written by DuBose Heyward alone. Dorothy should be credited for providing most of the libretto (which is rather founded on her play than on DuBose's novel), but the song texts are a different matter. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 15:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

From NPR October 23, 2008

National Public Radio has a wonderful article: "A Languid Look Back to Gershwin's 'Summertime'", part of its What Makes It Great series. If somebody wants to bring this article up to high gear, that's the place to start. MMetro (talk) 10:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

jnghjghj

This is becoming a mess again. Macca first on the (numbered?) list? Delete em all. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Once again

I want to point out to the users who have added the names of artists who have covered the song once again, that that is a rather useless act. See the discussion 0f 2007 on this page.Edclusa (talk) 09:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the contributors object to the list, whereas non-contributors who don't like it are free to ignore it. DVdm (talk) 09:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Historical important versions only - and in chronological order

Put the 1930's songs first, and consider stopping after 5 years of early recordings, unless recorded by a person whose Wiki-article is accorded higher priority by the biography or other Wiki project. Something like that - current state of article is, well, ridiculous.--LeValley 04:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that the notability of the subject is mostly due to the large number of interpretations of the song, be they of historical importance or not. Another aspect of its notability is the fact that this 75 years old song is still covered even today, and more or less the same rate as in the early years. Confining the list to historically important versions only (and who is going to decide about priority?) would kill that aspect. So I really don't mind the long-list-like appearance of this particular article.

We could of course limit the list to persons who have a blue wikilink, but that would make it merely about 15% shorter. What we also could do, is ref-needed-tagging some of the perhaps suspect entries in there. On the whole however, I really think that in this (rare) case the essence of the notability is adequately represented by the longness of the list. DVdm (talk) 09:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

But it is still a very useless activity as there are at least 24,900 artists who have performed Summertime, so... a reference to the site of The Summertime Connection where a full list is presented, is quite enough for me.Edclusa (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Ouch, GASP! :-) - DVdm (talk) 10:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Huh. They spelled "Hamill" as "Harnill". OCR failure? Powers ^T 19:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the perfect example. Good catch! DVdm (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with LeValley. The article should have some (referenced) text about the early recordings, later notable recordings including recordings by notable artists, and chart recordings. There should also be information about the total number of versions (if that is important), and the fact that versions are still being recorded (if that is important). Anything else is effectively non-notable and should be removed. The long list is simply horrible (and contrary to WP guidance). Is anyone going to have a go at doing this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:24, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Ira Gershwin

She He is credited in many films as a co-author of the lyrics [1]. Why isn't she he mentioned in the article? The Other Saluton (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, Ira Gershwin was a man. Secondly, although he wrote many of the lyrics for his brother's tunes, he didn't write this one - the words were written by (or, to be precise, credited to) DuBose Heyward, who wrote the original book on which the opera was based. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. Okay, where is a citation for this? Because I gave a citation that he did. The Other Saluton (talk) 12:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

More information here - "In February of 1934 George Gershwin had completed the first of the Porgy and Bess songs, a DuBose Heyward poem set to music called “Summertime.” He then spent the next 20 months completing and orchestrating the score...." I accept that some sources do credit Ira as well as Heyward, but I think that they are wrong. I'll do some more searching and see if I can come up with anything definitive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:01, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

PS: Incidentally, looking at the IMDB page you cited, I can't see where the song is mentioned. If you look for the credits for "Porgy and Bess", "Summertime" is not listed as an Ira composition. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

PPS: OK. The definitive page, at ASCAP, is here - and it does indeed, to my surprise, credit Ira as well as both George and Heyward. The stories of the writing of the song suggest that it was George's tune fitting Heyward's lyrics, but it may be that there was some legal agreement to co-credit Ira as well. I'll make some adjustments to the article wording. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Ukrainian lullaby

The tune is said to be based on the Ukrainian lullaby, Oi Khodyt Son Kolo Vikon (A Dream Passes By The Windows), which he heard in a New York City performance by Oleksander Koshetz’s Ukrainian National Chorus in 1929.[2]

This claim is sourced to a statement made by singer Alexis Kochan in The Ukrainian Weekly. I think we are going to need confirmation on this, preferably from academic or biographical sources about the composer and his music. Viriditas (talk) 09:01, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

That text, unreferenced, was originally inserted in 2008 here, by an IP user. When I got round to improving the article in 2010 (believe me, it was a lot worse before then) I added in the 1998 Ukrainian Weekly reference, which is not ideal but better than nothing, in my view - no reason to think it's not a reliable journal, but there may be a need for an edit along the lines of "It is claimed that..." (but less weaselly). No doubt there are better sources in Ukrainian. There is a more readable version of the article here. There is another ref here, but that may have derived from our 2008 article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

PS: The folk song concerned can be heard here: [3]. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:21, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, an off the record anecdote from Kochan in the Ukrainian Weekly isn't good enough to state definitively that the song is based on the Ukrainian melody. I would recommend searching for good sources on the subject, and failing that, either moving it into a short footnote noting the claim from Kochan, or removing it altogether. When we write articles on Wikipedia, we generally include claims that are easy to verify. Viriditas (talk) 01:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to the miracle of wikipedia, this proposed connection is becoming "the truth" quickly, and we should check if Kochan's suggestion has any base. Listening to Ghmyrtle's link and a performance of this lullaby by Kvitka Cisyk on youtube, the first sentence is similar (say, E-C-E) and the next sentence starts with a D "too", but that's about the similarity I can pick up (except, of course, that both songs are lullabies).

A minor point is that Koshetz's choir only toured from 1920 to1927. They did give a performance at Carnegie Hall on October 17, 1926. I couldn't find any evidence that the choir (who would have been without Koshetz at any rate) gave a performance in 1929.

Perhaps Gershwin has written or has been documented to say that he was inspired by this lullaby. Otherwise it seems an unjustified leap to suggest that because Gershwin was at a concert in 1926 where it was performed, he based his song on it when writing it in December 1933. I've at least adjusted the Oi Khodyt Son Kolo Vikon text, which said things like "The song became famous in the English world when it served as an inspiration for George Gershwin to create the aria "Summertime". Gershwin wrote it after hearing "Oy Khodyt Son Kolo Vikon" at a 1929 concert of...". Afasmit (talk) 08:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The current article text simply states that Kochan "has suggested that some part of Gershwin's inspiration may have come from having heard the Ukrainian lullaby" - which seems reasonable to me, based on the sources. It would surely be original research for anyone to make their own claims based on their own interpretation of the music. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The existing text appears careful (my reaction was mostly to the Oi Khodyt Son Kolo Vikon article, but I'm restating Viriditas's concern if a single person's perhaps off-the-cuff and otherwise unsupported remark should be mentioned at all. As I said, it spreads (see e.g. this 2007 edit that I just reversed). You could even interpret the single source's text that Khochan may have been goaded to give an answer to an excited reporter who thought she had heard "the haunting strains of ... Summertime" in the lullaby. Afasmit (talk) 17:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I've left the text in, but moved to the musicology section, preceded by some more authoritative theories on the possible inspiration(s) for the song. Afasmit (talk) 06:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Cooke

On the wikipedia page for Sam Cooke it list the Gershwin song Summertime as being released by Sam Cooke in 1957, while the Summertime song page list Cooke releasing the song much later. I will investigate the time line and if I discover the correct time line, I will post it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Egghead06 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 16 November 2011‎

It was 1957, on his first album. I've corrected it in this article. Thanks for noticing. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Number of versions

Claiming that there are over 30,000 recordings of this song is, frankly, ludicrous and completely unverifiable. The cited reference claims 25,000 (a smaller number), and lists 20,300 artists (even smaller), and then Googling just a few random ones from it, together with "summertime", seem to yield either only the same PDF, other songs with the name "Summertime" but that bear no relation, or nothing at all. I am changing the article to say "over 1,500", as reported in Tom Lord's "The Jazz Discography", which is a verifiable reference source. Mjbaldwin (talk) 06:01, 22 January 2012 (UTC)