User talk:Cloveapple

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Urgent

A post requiring your comment awaits you here[1].--Djathinkimacowboy ^{vandals' playground} 10:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Wildwater Kingdom

Why did you delete the attractions from Wildwater Kingdom? It matches the rest of Cedar Fairs water park articles. Astros4477 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I deleted it for two reasons. Details like required heights for each ride seemed very unencyclopedic and WP:NOT to me and I saw it didn't have an independent source.

However I've since looked at WikiProject Amusement Park and saw that a GA article on a roller coaster had height requirements! So mea culpa. I'll restore it with my apologies. I'll just add a small tag requesting independent sourcing. Cloveapple (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Barnstar Barnstar
		For keeping us honest and helping to facilitate the New Barnstar process, it's my pleasure to award you this Barnstar Achowat (talk) 13:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. This was a nice surprise to wake up to. Cloveapple (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification

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Note to self: fixed. Cloveapple (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Still multiple issues - Respons

Hi, You answered the talk I have on MikeWazowski page, regarding the article Roschier Attorneys Ltd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roschier_Attorneys_Ltd.), although I still haven't heard anything from Mike and you said that there might be som problem with my link? Could it be because there isn't a user page about me?

Or could it be something else causing him not to respond?

Thanks for your help and input! :)

--ChristineShaw (talk) 13:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I put the correct link in my message that was right below yours on MikeWazowski's talk page. (The link in your message didn't go to the article.) There's no technical reason preventing him from replying to you. I've no idea why MikeWazowski hasn't responded by now. I'll take a look at the article though I probably won't get to it until much later today. And I'll do my best to walk you through how to fix any remaining problems. Cloveapple (talk) 13:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thank you! --ChristineShaw (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I took a first look at the article. I don't think there are as many problems as the multiple tags might make you think. Several of the tags actually are just ways of repeating the same things. For example tightening up the types of sources used will fix both the complaint about primary sources and the complaint about "notability". For you to understand what these terms mean I'll give a rough description of two big ideas used in editing Wikipedia.

First are the words "notable" and "notability". Wikipedia desn't use these words in the way you'll find in the English dictionary. On Wikipedia they don't have the usual meaning of "worthy" or "important". Instead "notability" on Wikipedia is an odd but useful way of measuring if a topic belongs in the encyclopedia. A long description of ways to measure notability can be found at WP:NOTE. But a good rough way to measure Wikipedia's type of notability is to look and see how many sources are discussing the topic. If a lot of reliable independent sources are discussing a topic it's a pretty sure bet that it should have an article in the encyclopedia.

That takes us to the next idea: how to evaluate sources. Wikipedia articles need independent sources. That means sources that are independent from the topic of the article. For example if I am writing an article about Starbucks coffee, the Starbucks annual report would not be an independent source. Neither would their website or their monthly employee newsletter. (There are exceptions, but I'm giving the simple version.) The sources also need to fit Wikipedia's definition of "reliable". For the official long version you can read WP:RELY. The short version is that it is best to use books, magazines, and newspaper articles as article sources. If a blog is the official voice of a newspaper, magazine, or news show it is ok to use, but in general avoid blogs.

When I look at the sources for the law firm article, some of them are not independent. For example there's a couple uses of the company website. I'm assuming the PDFs are company documents? If so they share the same problem. Removing those sources would be a good first step. A second step might be looking for additional newspaper articles, magazine articles, or books that cover the law firm. Third, I'd like to go over the sources with you one by one after the non-independent sources ave been pruned.

Hope this gives you a good starting point. Cloveapple (talk) 09:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

This is great, thank you! I'll get started, can I let you know once I finish? --ChristineShaw (talk) 14:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Glad it's helping. Sure, let me know when you're done and I'll take a look. Cloveapple (talk) 16:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I have made some adjustments now, would you look at the article again? --ChristineShaw (talk) 13:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

A very quick glance makes me think the article is getting better. However I'd like to go over the sources one at a time to make sure I understand what each one is. Getting a better understanding of each source will help me give you advice. It will also let me help make the references clearer for an audience reading in English.

I haven't used the exact reference style being used in this article before, so I might be a little clumsy with it at first but I'm sure I can figure it out. (There are a number of different reference formats being used on Wikipedia and I haven't used a style with seperate notes before.)

I'll start a new section below. Cloveapple (talk) 06:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Message

Hello. You have a new message at Anna Frodesiak's talk page. 01:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Roschier Attorneys Ltd. sources

OK, let's go over the sources one by one. It would help me if you told this provincial American what language each source is in and just a little about the source. I'll be using Google translate to give me a rough feel for what sources say.Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, great! I'll make a summary of them all and post all at once. --ChristineShaw (talk) 10:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is a short description of all sources, just let me know if you should need anything else! Also, I don't seem to get the hang of how to make internal wikilinks to wikipages in other languages, do have any tips on that? Again, thanks for all your help!--ChristineShaw (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the details. I should get to these this weekend. I haven't done interwiki links but I'll see if I can find a good example of how they are done. Cloveapple (talk) 09:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I've started looking through these in detail. Sorry I've been slow to work on this. My offline life has been unexpectedly crazy. Thanks for your patience with this process.

There's a page about how to do inter-language links at Help:Interlanguage links. If that page doesn't help, somebody at the Wikipedia Help Desk can probably help out with the links.

There will probably be a source or two that I'll have to ask someone else for an opinion on. There's a formal internal message board for asking about sources and I'll let you know if I post a message there. Cloveapple (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Cogan, Ross; Vesterinen, Christine (2011). The Orange Firm: The Story of Roschier. Bookwell Oy. p. 31. ISBN 978-952-92-9393-3

OK, I take it this is an English language book? Or did you translate the title? I see "Bookwell Oy" is a Finnish publisher. I think "Oy" is Finnish for "Ltd."? (Looks like Wikipedia needs an entry on them.) Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is an English language book, the title is not translated. The book covers the story of our firm from the start up to today. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Brittiskt ordensregn". Hufvudstadsbladet. 22 September 1977

I see that Hufvudstadsbladet is a Swedish language newspaper in Finland. So it should be a good source.Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Sainio, Toivo; Nybergh, Erik (1982). Suomen Lakimiehet. Suomen Lakimiesliiton Kustannus Oy. p. 787. ISBN 951-640-153-8

Suomen Lakimiehet is a reference book published by the Association of Finnish Lawyers. It contains basic information on all lawyers holding a Finnish LL.M. degree (and also information on lawyers permanently working in Finland and holding a foreign LL.M. degree). --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Roschier Finland in Lex Mundi". Lex Mundi.

Lex Mundi is an association for independent law firms, the largest one of its kind in the world. The content is all in English. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"RR Alliance". InfoTorg Juridik.

InfoTorg Juridik is Sweden’s biggest legal news service. All content is in Swedish. http://www.infotorgjuridik.se/premium/head/article131247.ece --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Roschier Stockholm". Dagens Industri.

Dagens Industri is Swedens biggest, financial newspaper, along with its site www.di.se. All content is in Swedish. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, we can make this reference better by making it clearer that it's a newspaper. I have two thoughts on this. The first is that if you are going to have a reference section for Newspapers and books then it ought to show up there. The second idea is that if you are going to use citation templates Template:Cite news would make it clearer it's a newspaper than using the current web cite template. (You can still include a web link.) Cloveapple (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"Roschier Stockholm". Vasakronan.

I take it that Vasakronan is a real estate company? And this is from their website where they announce the law firm has moved into a landmark building in Stockholm? Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Vasakronan is Swedens biggest real estate company. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I would remove this source and keep the Dagens Industri reference that supports the same fact. Cloveapple (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

"Roschiers Senior Partner". Chambers.

Chambers and Partners publish one of the worlds leading guides to the legal profession. They identify and rank the world`s best lawyers and law firms. All content is in English. (I should edit the source to "Chambers and partners") --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Roschiers lawyers". Dagens Juridik.

Dagens Juridik is a Swedish online, legal, newspaper, all content is in Swedish. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Another reference that would be better with the news cite template. And again it should show up in the books and newspaper section if you are going to have that section. Cloveapple (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Talouselämä Liikejuridiikka 2011

Talouselämä is Finland’s largest financial weekly and most respected economic journal. One of Talouselämä’s annual features, Liikejuridiikka, is focused on business law firms in Finland. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"TNS Sifo prospera". Roschier Finland in Prospera 2011.

TNS is a global market information and insight group and TNS SIFO Prospera is part of TNS SIFO in Sweden. http://www.prospera.se/about --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar UBX

Hey Clove and/or Apple, I just edited a template in your User space, specifically User:Cloveapple/Userboxes/barnstars so that the link in the box would direct to your barnstar sub-page. As it stood, User:x would be sent to [[User:x/barnstars]] when clicking the link. Hopefully you don't find that too obtrusive. I know their are Talk page stalkers, but I'm fine being a sub-page stalker. Achowat (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow. So I accidentally made the most modest userbox on Wikiedia. It was so modest it showed off other people's barnstar pages! Thanks for catching it. Cloveapple (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Classroom coordination/SFSU Class Project#Checklist for articles

Well, it looks like they're all done (ages ago). If you're still up for it, could you please fly through the articles and fill in the ticks? Many thanks. (If you can't for some reason, please let me know, and I will look after it.) Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

One of the students is still plugging away, but all the others seem to be gone. If I remember right, all the articles are basically ok though none passed GA. I'll take another look through them when I get a chance. Could you take a look at What Work Is? A student from the class is determined to get it resubmitted to GA, but could really use advice or copy editing. (The class is over at this point so they're doing it for love not credit.) Cloveapple (talk) 09:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What Work Is looks okay. I am hopeless at anything to do with GA. Living in China has deteriorated my English skills to a terrible state. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. Cloveapple (talk) 18:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi I'm the manager for Allele

What do I need to do for you to prove all the things that Dusty has giving you is the truth. I find it very hard to believe that something like the Pearl corp. Isn't Good enough maybe you should go to www.keithentertainmentgroup.com and look at all the pics of Dusty and myself at NAMM last week. Thanks To the Pearl corp. and Cympad co. both very reputable companies. That have major magazine articles.The link to dusty endorsement by pearl is on there website. These are all facts. Magazines are opinions by writers. Facts are Facts.

Thank You, Keith Neddo KEG Management www.keithentertainmentgroup.com 518 630 7770Chaoticcreations (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I answered over on MikeWazowski's page, but I'll answer here too.

I'm sure you didn't know the rule against account sharing, but please don't use somebody else's account to post here. Shared accounts aren't allowed. So please create your own account for the next time you post. Now for the real answer. Even if the information is true a Wikipedia article might not be possible. To understand how Wikipedia decides if a band or musician should have an article read Wikipedia:Notability (music). My earlier answer about sources still holds. Wikipedia is looking for sources like books, magazine articles, and newspaper articles. The rules on sources are at WP:RELY. I'd be glad to explain further if needed. Cloveapple (talk) 18:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

NNU Class Project - Winter 2012

Please consider adding your name at: Wikipedia:School and university projects/NNU Class Project/Winter 2012

Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll be glad to help as I can, I just can't promise yet. My offline life is getting complicated right now and I may be facing a wikibreak soon. Cloveapple (talk) 18:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Revenge_(band)

Hi Cloveapple, can you advise how to get maintenance tag removed for 'improper references to self published sources'?? self published photos meet criteria 1-5 of WP:SELFPUBLISH I am knowledgeable about this subject and would like article kept. thanks a lot.76.118.76.38 (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has complained about the pictures. None of this is about the pictures. It's about the sources for text. Relying mostly on the record label as a source is problematic. The absolute bottom line is that to keep the article there have to be some additional independent sources that meet WP:RELY's criteria for reliable sources and that give the article notability as explained in WP:GNG. However, right now reading those policy links is a waste of your time. Right now what will improve the article enough to get it kept is finding some books, newspaper articles, or magazine articles to use as sources and finding them FAST. Arguing policy won't work right now because the policies are long, confusing, and hard to understand and you are new to them.

What you can do that I can not do is tell me about ANY newspaper articles, books, or magazines that discuss My Revenge. I've spent hours digging but this a subject I know nothing about so I may be missing obvious things. I've put the sources I've found on the article's talk page. Some of the sources I put there are solid as Wikipedia sources, some I'm less sure of. A couple magazine articles, a book, or a newspaper article or two that actually discusses the band in more than a passing mention would make a huge difference. For example Googling showed me that My Revenge might have been in Maximum Rocknroll issue 237 from 2003. However I can't verify that or get a copy fast enought to help. (It might just be the song by that name and not the band.)

An Afd (article for deletion) discussion runs for a week, but this one is almost over so if you have any print sources you can tell about add them fast to the article talk page or to the Afd discussion. They don't have to be online sources. The problem right now is that the Afd is almost over and if there are sources there is barely time to list them and then give people time to respond. In an unclear situation an Afd is sometimes extended another week, but unfortunately it's not unclear right now. It's a solid delete unless sources get listed. (Also saying there are sources without listing actual ones won't sway the decision.) Cloveapple (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

My Revenge band article WCAX reference

Hi Cloveapple - I read the WCAX reference in the article and watched the video too. The WCAX link was used as a reference to the statement that the band plays the annual Screaming For Change Festival every year. The video interview was with the drummer of My Revenge, Ryan Krushenick - he is mentioned in the article as a member of the band. He stated that "his band is playing." Moreover, there is a link to the Screaming For Change poster on the WCAX cite, which shows the band headlining the festival. I think there may be some confusion here, or if I'm confused and missing something please let me know. I feel like this was an appropriate reference. Please contact me on the talk page and thank you for assuming good faith. I can speak for myself as an editor that I'm trying my best here and I appreciate your input a lot! Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 23:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd have answered you on the article talk page, but as you know that no longer exists.

I watched the news video about Screaming for Change a third time and here's what I got: Ryan Krushenick is identified by name but the band My Revenge is never identified by name. The two mentions of Krushenick being in a band were first when he says "I'm in a band called Unrestrained" (though it sounded like Understrained) and then when the interviewer said "You're going to be in a band that performs both days." There was no mention of any act "headlining". Krushenick said there was going to be "about 20 bands" but gave no names.

One problem with trying to reference or write an article about something you are close to is that you can know information so well that you fill in gaps with your own knowledge and don't see gaps in the sources. My implication that you might have been being dishonst in your references was a bit harsh. After all at the end of the day I don't know you and we are just two semi-anonymous keyboard tappers. I was very dissapointed when I realized I'd have to spot check everything and that the article was in worse shape than I'd realized.

If you do ever decide to work on a Wikipedia article again I'd be up for showing you the basics so it would be much less angst filled and dramatic. There are some simple ways to get a safe space to work on a draft. Also topics that are less mainstream are sometimes harder to document, but it can be done. Cloveapple (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cloveapple, I just want to first-off say thank you for being so helpful throughout this. I really appreciate it and you are a great example of what I feel a model Wikipedia editor should be. So thank you again!

What about the link on the WCAX site to the poster depicting My Revenge playing that festival? Thank you for taking the time to review it.

Also, My Revenge has an interview with National Public Radio - State Of The Union program with Tina Antolini being done later this week regarding their activism against topics like racism, sexism, and their work on promoting same sex marriage rights. If that would not prove to be a reliable source, then nothing will :) My goal is to go into a safe space, like the sandbox to work on re-doing this article and incorporating some more/better references. My question to you is - is this possible? and would you be willing to give me a couple pointers on it? Thanks very much, take care Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)