Talk:Fear of flying

Discussion

I manually moved the stuff over from aviophobia to here because fear of flying already had a history. I pointed out that aviophobia is 1)not plain English, 2)two syllables longer than fear of flying, 3)a terribly constructed, illegitimate Greek-Latin hybrid, 4)a word that (ignoring the poor construction) means "Fear of Birds". Aviophobia simply isn't a legitimate word--it's not even in the OED.Mauvila 08:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I changed the wording "an irrational" to "a " as stating that somethins is irrational implies a point of view.

The orignal wording was "Fear of flying is an irrational fear of air travel." Changed the sentence to read "Fear of flying is a fear of air travel." Who is to say that it's an irrational fear? Air travel was not as safe as it is today for most of the people who might have traveled on the provided list. Wjbean 23:39, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Well, I suppose you're right. But we then should probably replace 'air travel' with the more common term 'flying'. And we would be left with 'Fear of flying is a fear of flying.' A beautifully reflexive statement. I'm pretty sure the reason it said 'irrational' was that the article was originally under some bizarrely constructed 'phobia' word. And phobias generally are defined as irrational. But those phobias tend to be stuff like 'fear of the letter 13', 'fear of water', and things that could legitimately be classified as irrational. But I see nothing worthy of the DSM-IV in flying. Imagine something being defined as the "irrational fear of skydiving". 68.63.58.122 08:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Request for Help: Commercial external links

Hi. This article page seems to be attract commercial links somewhat. I'm having a hard time telling if the remaining two links are of real value to people with a fear of flying. Can somebody help? --Netizen 10:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Anybody? I'm not knowledgable about this topic. --Netizen 08:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Inconsequential Statistics

I think the following should be removed from the first paragraph:

"this despite that driving in an automobile is statistically many times more dangerous."

The person who wrote this failed to note that there are many more automobiles on the road than there are planes in the sky, which may certainly bump up those "statistics".

Cparker 05:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'm getting awfully tired of seeing this statistic without a source to back it up. There are many ways in which you could compare the two statistics. My opinion is that you'd have to compare 'fatal car crashes due to the actions of another driver' since not much else really works out well (i.e., direct fatalities caused by negligent drivers, EXCLUDING the driver that caused the accident). Any moron can get a driver's license in the U.S., whereas flying a commercial airliner takes many years of training and many, many, many flight hours.

Although commercial flight is very safe by any standard, I think it's entirely possible that this statistic is yet another silly statistic without real footing or relevance.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.50.83.206 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 5 April 2006 (See diff)

I have added a reference to a USDOT page that has statistics for motor vehicle and air travel fatalities, among other things. They measure it in deaths per miles traveled, which is what you want if you're comparing driving vs. flying for the same trip. Nate 17:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What about General Aviation as opposed to Commercial Aviation? Does anybody have relevant statistics? Piotr

Agree. I think this subject deserves its own discussion section within the article. (Or maybe a new article on the safety of flying, to which a link could be added here.) There's no one "right" way to look at "the statistic." Perhaps several (possibly conflicting) references should be included with a discussion of the caveats of each... let the reader draw a conclusion about whether flying really is "safer" based on whatever metric they feel comfortable with (deaths over the whole population? deaths per aircraft mile? deaths per passenger mile?). David Norris 22:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

List of people

I am going to clean this list from persons whose artciles do not mention fear of flying or the list entry itself does not give a reference, according to wikipedia:Verifiability rule. Such a bare list is an invitation to hoahers. `'mikka (t) 23:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBxPJe1nk-0

Clint Boon was not the lead singer from PWEI. He was the keyboard player with Inspiral Carpets. Clint Mansell sang with PWEI.

Last section

The last section of this article is so grammatically incorrect that I don't know what the author was trying to say in the first place. If anyone can decypher the last paragraph, I encourage you to do so.

Revision by specialist, please!

A topic of major concern for modern life, and no one can write a better article than this? Will some academic or specialist in the field please revise or totaly re-write this article, so as to give us an acurate idea of what the current scientific understanding of "fear of flying" is, including all the different theories, explanations etc...? Please, the world wants to learn! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.193.90.201 (talk) 02:48:46, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can. I not only suffer from The Fear of Flying, but have numerous resources. I agree, that this article is terrible. At one time it was in good shape, but has been edited to the point it is difficult to read or understand. Don't expect any big revisions soon, as I want to properly research each section prior to making ANY changes. I will of course cite my resources, and THEY WILL BE RELIABLE. Thanks --Mt6617 (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Fly at Ease

I've been trying to submit a link to an informative page, flyatease that explains the noises from takeoff to landing, as well as a 4-5 page article thats helpful for those with a fear of flying. Keeps getting removed, i don't think its a commercial site?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.4.154 (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If the information is so valuable, why dont you include it in the article? This really isn't a how-to manual, but an encyclopedia.Montco (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-medicating OK...?

Wow 4 years of working at a substance abuse clinic I would say thats crazy "I'm often told of the "Anti-Anxiety" Effects of Heroin and Ketamine to name a few and I can tell you it starts w/ fear of flying then fear of a job interview then your seeing me after ODing telling me you are not an addict and this is a one time thing.Lets Delete it would anyone agree I am new and don't like editing willy nilly except vandalizing wikipedia JK.By the way heroin does work much better then anything thats from the patient . OK--N8Riley (talk) 17:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this really true?

Is this really true, because I think this could really only happen to young children and mentally messed up drama-kings and drama-queens.

• "For example, the experience of flying to a meeting only to be told that one has been fired might be traumatic enough to subsequently create an association between any air travel and bad or unpleasant events."

Please respond. Rob657 (talk) 05:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)Rob657

Yes it is. And no, people that suffer from the Fear of Flying are not "drama" anything. It is a REAL fear no matter how irrational. Interesting enough children rarely suffer from The Fear of Flying. I personally suggest you read about the phobia prior to labeling people. --Mt6617 (talk) 18:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Stanley Kubrick

I've removed his name from the list of people afraid to fly. Kubrick was a licensed pilot who said he refused to fly because of the lax standards of the airline industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.62.168 (talk) 20:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

My Own Experience

As a person who suffers this phobia, I can state (at least in my case) that it's not a combination of other phobias. I have very little fear of heights and I can easily withstand being enclosed in small spaces. I even traveled many times by air when I was younger; the phobia grew slowly.

After much thought I've come to realize that it has a lot to do with the natural nonlinear risk assessment people bring to situations. For me, flying is like stepping onto a teleporter pad -- it almost always works, and when it does, it's fast, but it's also all or nothing: if it fails, you're toast.

I wholly admit I assess risks illogically. People do. The same person that buys lottery tickets each week thinking he can defeat one-in-a-million odds doesn't mind walking in a rainstorm where the risk of a lightning strike is one in ten thousand. I don't treat each risk purely on the statistical probability of its outcome, the fear doesn't really have anything to do with that. All I can say is that air travel feels far more like a gamble than anything else. Walking around carries risk, but I've been doing that since I was a toddler. Riding a bike, driving a car... again, these are learned early and done often. The fear has a chance to melt away into the banality of the transportation form. The shame and ridicule of fearing walking and driving are also more potent and help to overcome fear. Same with the loss of the quality of life; I'd rather walk and drive than live like a shut-in.

I've been in bad situations with cars, trains, etc. and therefore have experience of surviving these accidents and have come to accept it. But it's nearly impossible to do the same with aircraft because failures are often fatal. Boarding a plane requires more faith. It feels more like gambling than travel. Once you're on board, the next several hours until you land are a continual uninterruptible stream of dice rolls. In a car you can stop anytime you feel uneasy; you can even abort a car trip if you want. There are more options, more ways out, more escape routes. If it were possible to escape from a plane accident (with special parachutes or pods or whatever), believe me, my attitude towards flying would change a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.16.201 (talk) 22:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

erroneous conclusion when talking about the Stanford study

I think the paragraph about the Stanford study is downright wrong, I read it. People treated with benzos experienced LESS anxiety than placebo and only the group that was taken off the benzos to fly on the second flight with placebo only had increased anxiety. Thus benzos are effective, however this makes it sound like they aren't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amalgamator (talk • contribs) 02:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Anyone else care to comment? --Mt6617 (talk) 05:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Engine failure

I am confused by this passage:

Misunderstandings of the principles of aviation can fuel an unjustified fear of flying. For example, many people incorrectly believe that the engines of a jet airliner support it in the air, and from this false premise they also incorrectly reason that a failure of the engines will cause the aircraft to plummet to earth. In reality, all aircraft glide naturally, and the engines serve only to maintain altitude during the flight.

Aside from the fact that it appears to be unsourced original research, it's also a teensy bit casuistic. It's not as if engine failure doesn't cause plane crashes! Maintenance of altitude is, it must be said, one of the most important functions of an aircraft. Would anyone care to defend this passage before I delete it? TremorMilo (talk) 20:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure about deletion, perhaps revision. I "think" what the author was attempting to explain is a subject's lack of knowledge about the mechanics of flight causes or attributes to their Fear of Flying. It is true that loss of all engines does not instantly cause a crash. The Gimli Glider,Gimli_Glider an Air Canada 767, with total engine failure, glided for over 150 miles to a rough, but sucessful landing. I am very knowledgable about the Fear of Flying, and it is VERY true that individuals misconcieved notions about the mechanics of flight causes or attributes to their fear.--Mt6617 (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Randy Rhoads

Can we have a reference for Randy having a fear of flying? It may well be true, but it struck me this may have been someone's (bad) idea of a joke 86.142.110.161 (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

If no one can cite a reliable source it should be removed. Objections?--Mt6617 (talk) 18:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Request for SOAR Commercial links "References" be removed

1. REDIRECT 5.^ "Comparative Effectiveness Of Flight Anxiety Treatments And Programs". http://fearofflying.com/about/compare-effectiveness-flight-anxiety-treatments-programs.shtml.

1. REDIRECT 6.^ "History of Fear of Flying Programs". http://www.fearofflying.com/about/history.shtml.

SOAR is an expensive program [1] that initially offers "some" free help through it forums. As this is a commerical (for profit) program, I request that these links be removed.--Mt6617 (talk) 17:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to change Article Name

Fear of Flying is the "common name" however it is also the name that most readers will attempt to look the article up by. My suggestion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mt6617 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Symptoms

The below quoted text is a good intro to Symptoms, however needs to be expanded. Here are some suggestions:[2] [3] A Clear list [4]

A fear of flying is a level of anxiety so great that it prevents a person from travelling by air, or causes great distress to a person when he or she is compelled to travel by air. The most extreme manifestations can include panic attacks or vomiting at the mere sight or mention of an aircraft or air travel.--Mt6617 (talk) 18:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

This is an article about an academic subject. The three sources notes above are not sufficiently reliable for use in this article for the reasons noted below. In general, these subjects should rely primarily on peer reviewed journals. Rklawton (talk) 01:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Guide to Psychology" - self published.
• "about.com" - basically a wiki.
• "fearofstuff" - isn't an academic site - it's a site set up to cell anti-phobia CDs.

Treatment

This section needs to be re-written. First, terms need to be either simplified, or meaning explained. Many folks with The Fear of Flying become confused and frustrated if too much information is thrown at them. They are struggling with a fear they know is irrational, and that alone frustrates them. For this reason, terms need to be explained (spoon feeding) This is not saying that individuals that suffer from The Fear of Flying are dumb or slow, in fact just the opposite. Many are very intelligent, and creative.

Secondly, there are many, many, many forms of Treatment. The Fear of Flying is not always the same in every person. Different life events, or lack of experience with flight can bring on The Fear of Flying. Therefore some treatments work for some, but not for others. As a result there are many treatments to attack the phobia. These treatments need to be discussed as well.

Examples are: [5] [6] [7] [8] Group Therapy [9] Support Forums [10] [11] --Mt6617 (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia - and not a "how to" guide (for cures or anything else for that matter. It's simply wrong to assume our readership consists solely of people with this phobia. Students, airline professionals, and mental health specialists along with the plain curious may be reading this article. Hence it is not appropriate to "spoon feed" any particular group. Rklawton (talk) 01:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Of the sources listed in this section, I highly recommend using nih.gov. That would be considered a reliable source and well worth including here. Great job! Rklawton (talk) 01:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Links

This area needs to be expanded. I have added some links that are non-commercial, or not for profit. I am against ANY internet site that is "for profit" as I have witnessed folks clear their bank account grabbing at straws to receive help. If someone needs to seek professional help, their personal MD should refer them. Stacy Chance does charge for a book and a DVD, however the majority of his site is free. There is a wealth of free information out on the internet to help with The Fear of Flying. And they are reliable. By the same token, there are many "snakes in the grass" that act like telvision evangilist waiting to make a profit on those that suffer from this phobia. I do not feel we need to add to their "cause". --Mt6617 (talk) 18:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

This section should be labeled "External links". However, I've removed the section because none of the links were worthwhile. One was to a self-published website, one to a website that had very little information and has obviously not been maintained in awhile, and the last pointed to a non-scientific poll. See WP:EL for useful information about external links. Rklawton (talk) 01:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Original Research

Articles and references to "original research" has been removed.--Mt6617 (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Notable people with the phobia

What purpose does this have in an encyclopedia article? It provides no significant basis of researching this phobia. For example, just because John Madden suffers from The Fear of Flying, does not indicate a relation between Football Announcers and the phobia. Request is made that this section be removed.--Mt6617 (talk) 05:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point. So why not go over each name one at a time and see who has the actual phobia and who just doesn't care to fly? Jay Leno, for example, has nothing about flying in his article, so we can remove that one as unsourced. Rklawton (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That is a good point as well, as if it can't be verified, it has no reason to be here at all. However, my point is... EVEN if they DO suffer from The Fear of Flying, it still makes no sense for the list to be here. It offers nothing in the way of research, it is more about the person than the phobia. It is "interesting" to see a list of notable people that suffer from the phobia, but is not something that belongs in a Encyclopedia article. That is why I have suggested that the entire section be removed.--Mt6617 (talk) 20:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's your opinion, but it's pretty common to include a list of notable folks with a particular affliction. Sometimes we list them directly in articles such as this one. Sometimes we create a category instead. Rklawton (talk) 20:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Understood. I will research each one. I know that many listed are affected, but not all. I did remove Jay Leno.--Mt6617 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Links and References

I'm going to compile a list of links and references here. If someone could comment on each one, as whether they are acceptable prior to me incorporating them into the article it would be appreciated.--Mt6617 (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

We have already discussed this one, and it is my understanding it is acceptable [12]

The additional:

Live Science article--Mt6617 (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

All About Counseling--Mt6617 (talk) 21:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

This article has many references and citations, of the ones I have listed thus far, with the exception of NIH, I think this one would be most useful in reconstructing the article. --Mt6617 (talk) 21:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I recommend starting here Rklawton (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow... this is some good information! Thanks Rklawton, I will start digging into it and post what I find here!--Mt6617 (talk) 00:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Well.... I dug into it, and unfortunately most of the links required registration, payment, etc. I have given much thought to this situation, and there appears to be a problem which I will discuss in a separate discussion topic. --Mt6617 (talk) 02:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Notable People

I now note that the list of "Notable People" has been tripled. I guess that is your answer. --Mt6617 (talk) 02:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I have deleted all of the unreferenced names and one that was referenced to a non WP:RS. Night Ranger (talk) 03:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. --Mt6617 (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I was reading the article on Lorne "Gump" Worsley. It had a citation regarding his avoidance of airplane flights (which almost caused his early retirement from hockey), and a link to this article, so I added his name here. I wonder how many of the other deleted subjects have similar indirect references. WHPratt (talk) 13:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a BLP violation to label someone with a phobia using only an indirect reference, so I've removed it and would encourage any editor to refrain from using articles to speculate on other people's illnesses. Rklawton (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

By "indirect," I didn't mean "hearsay," but rather a direct citation in the subject's own article. If listing him here is somehow defamatory, then so is the other article. WHPratt (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

How about adding a link here and copying the reference to the reliable source? GoingBatty (talk) 00:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Causes

I disagree with this sentence:

the result of hormone release during pregnancy and the result of difficulty with the regulation of emotion when not in control due to developmental issues

Is there a reliable source?--Mt6617 (talk) 05:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The placement of reference #2 seems to indicate that the source would be that reference. However, that web page has no mention of "hormone" or "preganacy". When it was added to the article in it had a reference at examiner(dot)com (see this edit for the full URL), which can't be added back to the article because of the spam filter. If this reference is necessary, you can request that this page be added to the spam whitelist. GoingBatty (talk) 18:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, That reference was removed as it is a pay site and also offers "cures". Therefore can the statement be removed if there is no reliable reference?--Mt6617 (talk) 00:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

No objection. GoingBatty (talk) 00:57, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, removing the statement.--Mt6617 (talk) 02:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit of Talk Page

I have deleted several subjects that I started that were more of a tantrum on my part and did not serve to improve the article. If deleting these subjects is not appropriate, please feel free to restore them. After some time, I will delete this message as well. Thank You. --Mt6617 (talk) 00:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Customarily we don't remove edits from talk pages except in cases where they aren't directly related to improving the article. In this case, and since they were your own edits, I don't see a problem. Rklawton (talk) 01:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Rklawton. They were embarrassing. I am "tempering" my frustration to a more useful level.--Mt6617 (talk) 03:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Treatment

Although IMHO there are other issues that lead to the Fear of Flying, I do not agree that hypnotherapy has any particular use. Therefore I disagree with this statement under the "Treatment" section

Hypnotherapy generally involves regression to the ISE, uncovering the event, the emotions around the event, and helping the client understand the source of their fear. It is sometimes the case that the ISE has nothing to do with flying at all.

As the statement has not reliable source associated with it, may it be removed?--Mt6617 (talk) 02:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

For unsourced sentences that you think should be removed, my suggestion is to add {{citation needed}} after the sentence. If no one adds a reference after a reasonable amount of time, then go ahead and delete the sentence.

For sentences you think could be improved, my suggestion is to start a discussion here with the original sentence and your proposal for change. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 00:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that is helpful, and I will utilize your suggestions.--Mt6617 (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)