User talk:Cloveapple

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Roschier Attorneys Ltd. sources

OK, let's go over the sources one by one. It would help me if you told this provincial American what language each source is in and just a little about the source. I'll be using Google translate to give me a rough feel for what sources say.Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, great! I'll make a summary of them all and post all at once. --ChristineShaw (talk) 10:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is a short description of all sources, just let me know if you should need anything else! Also, I don't seem to get the hang of how to make internal wikilinks to wikipages in other languages, do have any tips on that? Again, thanks for all your help!--ChristineShaw (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the details. I should get to these this weekend. I haven't done interwiki links but I'll see if I can find a good example of how they are done. Cloveapple (talk) 09:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I've started looking through these in detail. Sorry I've been slow to work on this. My offline life has been unexpectedly crazy. Thanks for your patience with this process.

There's a page about how to do inter-language links at Help:Interlanguage links. If that page doesn't help, somebody at the Wikipedia Help Desk can probably help out with the links.

There will probably be a source or two that I'll have to ask someone else for an opinion on. There's a formal internal message board for asking about sources and I'll let you know if I post a message there. Cloveapple (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I asked an experienced editor named Ironholds for some input on a couple sources because they have more legal knowledge than I do. Ironholds said both Chambers and Partners and Lex Mundi are definitely reliable sources. Ironholds also offered to look for further sources. I'd recommend accepting that offer. Cloveapple (talk) 19:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Per our converstation on your talk page I'm going over the sources again. I'm putting green check marks next to the sources/references that don't need any further action. Cloveapple (talk) 19:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

YCogan, Ross; Vesterinen, Christine (2011). The Orange Firm: The Story of Roschier. Bookwell Oy. p. 31. ISBN 978-952-92-9393-3

OK, I take it this is an English language book? Or did you translate the title? I see "Bookwell Oy" is a Finnish publisher. I think "Oy" is Finnish for "Ltd."? (Looks like Wikipedia needs an entry on them.) Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is an English language book, the title is not translated. The book covers the story of our firm from the start up to today. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm a little uncertain about using this book as source. I haven't been able to find it in library listings at WorldCat. (There may be a regional library search that would find the book.) I did find it for sale as an electronic book in several different country's versions of Amazon. However more than one of those online booksellers listed Roschier as the publisher. That means it may not be can't be treated as an independent source. Cloveapple (talk) 18:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I have removed it as a source (in two places) and replaced it with the following book “Kansan ja esivallan välissä – suomalaisen asianajajakunnan historia” (free translation to English: Between the people and the authorities - the history of the Finnish attorneys)--ChristineShaw (talk) 12:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

?"Brittiskt ordensregn". Hufvudstadsbladet. 22 September 1977

I see that Hufvudstadsbladet is a Swedish language newspaper in Finland. So it should be a good source.Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

These are little things but I want to get them fixed because they will help any future editors find the source. (Sources can be difficult to find but they need to be verifiable if anyone wants to check.) I changed the template being used since you accidentally used one for journals/magazines. Does this newspaper article list an author? If so could you add it either after author= or put the two parts of their name after first= and last=? Also could you add a tranlation of the article title after trans_title=? If you know the page number could you fill in page (or pages if it is on more than one page). If you don't have the page numbers but have any information such as the section of the newspaper it was in list that after at=. Cloveapple (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

?Sainio, Toivo; Nybergh, Erik (1982). Suomen Lakimiehet. Suomen Lakimiesliiton Kustannus Oy. p. 787. ISBN 951-640-153-8

Suomen Lakimiehet is a reference book published by the Association of Finnish Lawyers. It contains basic information on all lawyers holding a Finnish LL.M. degree (and also information on lawyers permanently working in Finland and holding a foreign LL.M. degree). --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Very very minor point: could you put a translation of the book title after trans_title= ? Also let me know if it's not in Finnish, since I put that as the language. Cloveapple (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

? "Roschier Finland in Lex Mundi". Lex Mundi.

Lex Mundi is an association for independent law firms, the largest one of its kind in the world. The content is all in English. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I asked Ironholds about this one and he said it was a reliable source. Cloveapple (talk) 19:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The link is broken right now, so that needs fixing. (Probably they just moved a page on the website.) Cloveapple (talk) 13:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Still giving me "Page Not Found". If you can't figure out how to fix this link you might ask Ironholds how he would go about citing Lex Mundi. Cloveapple (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

?"RR Alliance". InfoTorg Juridik.

InfoTorg Juridik is Sweden’s biggest legal news service. All content is in Swedish. http://www.infotorgjuridik.se/premium/head/article131247.ece --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a good source that clearly supports the facts it's used to reference. Cloveapple (talk) 21:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I put in the full article title. Could you put a translation of the article title after trans_title = ? Cloveapple (talk) 00:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Y"Roschier Stockholm". Dagens Industri.

Dagens Industri is Swedens biggest, financial newspaper, along with its site www.di.se. All content is in Swedish. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, we can make this reference better by making it clearer that it's a newspaper. I have two thoughts on this. The first is that if you are going to have a reference section for Newspapers and books then it ought to show up there. The second idea is that if you are going to use citation templates Template:Cite news would make it clearer it's a newspaper than using the current web cite template. (You can still include a web link.) Cloveapple (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I have remade the source using the template. --ChristineShaw (talk) 13:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Y"Roschier Stockholm". Vasakronan.

I take it that Vasakronan is a real estate company? And this is from their website where they announce the law firm has moved into a landmark building in Stockholm? Cloveapple (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Vasakronan is Swedens biggest real estate company. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I would remove this source and keep the Dagens Industri reference that supports the same fact. Cloveapple (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

And also removed this. --ChristineShaw (talk) 13:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Y"Roschiers Senior Partner". Chambers.

Chambers and Partners publish one of the worlds leading guides to the legal profession. They identify and rank the world`s best lawyers and law firms. All content is in English. (I should edit the source to "Chambers and partners") --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I asked Ironholds about this and he said it was a reliable source. Cloveapple (talk) 18:55, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I corrected the title on this one. All set. Cloveapple (talk) 00:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Y"Roschiers lawyers". Dagens Juridik.

Dagens Juridik is a Swedish online, legal, newspaper, all content is in Swedish. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Another reference that would be better with the news cite template. And again it should show up in the books and newspaper section if you are going to have that section. Cloveapple (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, it is adjusted now. --ChristineShaw (talk) 09:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

?Talouselämä Liikejuridiikka 2011

Talouselämä is Finland’s largest financial weekly and most respected economic journal. One of Talouselämä’s annual features, Liikejuridiikka, is focused on business law firms in Finland. --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like there's some technical things to fix in how the reference is written. (Right now "Talouselämä Liikejuridiikka" is listed as being an article title within the journal, and Liikejuridiikka is listed as being the name of the journal.) Let me make sure I understand this right. The name of the journal is Talouselämä, correct? Is Liikejuridiikka a yearly section within an issue of the journal? Or is Liikejuridiikka an entire yearly issue of the journal? Or is it an annual book that the journal produces? Cloveapple (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right, Talouselämä is the name of the journal. In 2010 Liikejuridiikka was a separate yearly supplement to the Talouselämä journal. In 2011 they reduced the supplement to only a section (of 4-5 pages) in the Talouselämä journal. How should that be specified in the reference? --ChristineShaw (talk) 09:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I see that you changed the 2011 Talouselämä reference so that Talouselämä is the journal name. That should be fine. I added the ISSN number and publisher and listed the language as Finnish.

Do you have the page numbers for the section? If the section had numbered pages fill in the page range after pages=. If there are no page numbers for the Liikejuridiikka section you could put a brief description such as "special unnumbered section" after the at=. (Just erase "at=" or "pages=" if you don't use them.)

If you also wanted to use something from the 2010 supplement let me know and I'll write out how that would look. Cloveapple (talk) 02:13, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

?"TNS Sifo prospera". Roschier Finland in Prospera 2011.

TNS is a global market information and insight group and TNS SIFO Prospera is part of TNS SIFO in Sweden. http://www.prospera.se/about --ChristineShaw (talk) 15:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I changed the title in the reference for the Finland report to match the actual title at the top of the PDF. I'm sure the title for the Sweden report also needs changing to match the exact document title, but I can't access it easily since the download link for the Sweden report leads to a PPT document which I can't open on my home computer. Don't worry, I don't think there's any problem with it being a powerpoint format. It just means I can't fix the title for you. Just put whatever the exact heading is for the PPT document after title= instead of the "title=TNS Sifo prospera" that's currently in the Swedish report's reference. Cloveapple (talk) 03:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Classroom coordination/SFSU Class Project#Checklist for articles

Well, it looks like they're all done (ages ago). If you're still up for it, could you please fly through the articles and fill in the ticks? Many thanks. (If you can't for some reason, please let me know, and I will look after it.) Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

One of the students is still plugging away, but all the others seem to be gone. If I remember right, all the articles are basically ok though none passed GA. I'll take another look through them when I get a chance. Could you take a look at What Work Is? A student from the class is determined to get it resubmitted to GA, but could really use advice or copy editing. (The class is over at this point so they're doing it for love not credit.) Cloveapple (talk) 09:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What Work Is looks okay. I am hopeless at anything to do with GA. Living in China has deteriorated my English skills to a terrible state. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. Cloveapple (talk) 18:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi I'm the manager for Allele

What do I need to do for you to prove all the things that Dusty has giving you is the truth. I find it very hard to believe that something like the Pearl corp. Isn't Good enough maybe you should go to www.keithentertainmentgroup.com and look at all the pics of Dusty and myself at NAMM last week. Thanks To the Pearl corp. and Cympad co. both very reputable companies. That have major magazine articles.The link to dusty endorsement by pearl is on there website. These are all facts. Magazines are opinions by writers. Facts are Facts.

Thank You, Keith Neddo KEG Management www.keithentertainmentgroup.com 518 630 7770Chaoticcreations (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I answered over on MikeWazowski's page, but I'll answer here too.

I'm sure you didn't know the rule against account sharing, but please don't use somebody else's account to post here. Shared accounts aren't allowed. So please create your own account for the next time you post. Now for the real answer. Even if the information is true a Wikipedia article might not be possible. To understand how Wikipedia decides if a band or musician should have an article read Wikipedia:Notability (music). My earlier answer about sources still holds. Wikipedia is looking for sources like books, magazine articles, and newspaper articles. The rules on sources are at WP:RELY. I'd be glad to explain further if needed. Cloveapple (talk) 18:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

NNU Class Project - Winter 2012

Please consider adding your name at: Wikipedia:School and university projects/NNU Class Project/Winter 2012

Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll be glad to help as I can, I just can't promise yet. My offline life is getting complicated right now and I may be facing a wikibreak soon. Cloveapple (talk) 18:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Revenge_(band)

Hi Cloveapple, can you advise how to get maintenance tag removed for 'improper references to self published sources'?? self published photos meet criteria 1-5 of WP:SELFPUBLISH I am knowledgeable about this subject and would like article kept. thanks a lot.76.118.76.38 (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has complained about the pictures. None of this is about the pictures. It's about the sources for text. Relying mostly on the record label as a source is problematic. The absolute bottom line is that to keep the article there have to be some additional independent sources that meet WP:RELY's criteria for reliable sources and that give the article notability as explained in WP:GNG. However, right now reading those policy links is a waste of your time. Right now what will improve the article enough to get it kept is finding some books, newspaper articles, or magazine articles to use as sources and finding them FAST. Arguing policy won't work right now because the policies are long, confusing, and hard to understand and you are new to them.

What you can do that I can not do is tell me about ANY newspaper articles, books, or magazines that discuss My Revenge. I've spent hours digging but this a subject I know nothing about so I may be missing obvious things. I've put the sources I've found on the article's talk page. Some of the sources I put there are solid as Wikipedia sources, some I'm less sure of. A couple magazine articles, a book, or a newspaper article or two that actually discusses the band in more than a passing mention would make a huge difference. For example Googling showed me that My Revenge might have been in Maximum Rocknroll issue 237 from 2003. However I can't verify that or get a copy fast enought to help. (It might just be the song by that name and not the band.)

An Afd (article for deletion) discussion runs for a week, but this one is almost over so if you have any print sources you can tell about add them fast to the article talk page or to the Afd discussion. They don't have to be online sources. The problem right now is that the Afd is almost over and if there are sources there is barely time to list them and then give people time to respond. In an unclear situation an Afd is sometimes extended another week, but unfortunately it's not unclear right now. It's a solid delete unless sources get listed. (Also saying there are sources without listing actual ones won't sway the decision.) Cloveapple (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

My Revenge band article WCAX reference

Hi Cloveapple - I read the WCAX reference in the article and watched the video too. The WCAX link was used as a reference to the statement that the band plays the annual Screaming For Change Festival every year. The video interview was with the drummer of My Revenge, Ryan Krushenick - he is mentioned in the article as a member of the band. He stated that "his band is playing." Moreover, there is a link to the Screaming For Change poster on the WCAX cite, which shows the band headlining the festival. I think there may be some confusion here, or if I'm confused and missing something please let me know. I feel like this was an appropriate reference. Please contact me on the talk page and thank you for assuming good faith. I can speak for myself as an editor that I'm trying my best here and I appreciate your input a lot! Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 23:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd have answered you on the article talk page, but as you know that no longer exists.

I watched the news video about Screaming for Change a third time and here's what I got: Ryan Krushenick is identified by name but the band My Revenge is never identified by name. The two mentions of Krushenick being in a band were first when he says "I'm in a band called Unrestrained" (though it sounded like Understrained) and then when the interviewer said "You're going to be in a band that performs both days." There was no mention of any act "headlining". Krushenick said there was going to be "about 20 bands" but gave no names.

One problem with trying to reference or write an article about something you are close to is that you can know information so well that you fill in gaps with your own knowledge and don't see gaps in the sources. My implication that you might have been being dishonst in your references was a bit harsh. After all at the end of the day I don't know you and we are just two semi-anonymous keyboard tappers. I was very dissapointed when I realized I'd have to spot check everything and that the article was in worse shape than I'd realized.

If you do ever decide to work on a Wikipedia article again I'd be up for showing you the basics so it would be much less angst filled and dramatic. There are some simple ways to get a safe space to work on a draft. Also topics that are less mainstream are sometimes harder to document, but it can be done. Cloveapple (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cloveapple, I just want to first-off say thank you for being so helpful throughout this. I really appreciate it and you are a great example of what I feel a model Wikipedia editor should be. So thank you again!

What about the link on the WCAX site to the poster depicting My Revenge playing that festival? Thank you for taking the time to review it.

Also, My Revenge has an interview with National Public Radio - State Of The Union program with Tina Antolini being done later this week regarding their activism against topics like racism, sexism, and their work on promoting same sex marriage rights. If that would not prove to be a reliable source, then nothing will :) My goal is to go into a safe space, like the sandbox to work on re-doing this article and incorporating some more/better references. My question to you is - is this possible? and would you be willing to give me a couple pointers on it? Thanks very much, take care Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I saw that link? I saw a link to the skate park web site. If you were wanting to use the poster link as a reference you'd probably have to put the direct link. Without seeing the poster web page I'm guessing it wouldn't be the best reference. The NPR interview sounds like it could make a wonderful reference for the article. Let's hope they put a transcript on their website, or that the show has a podcast, or that there's some verifiable lasting record. I know that a number of public radio shows have online audio. My library gives me access to a database that includes a lot of news transcripts. If NPR doesn't put it online I can look and see if they include radio transcripts.

As far as giving you pointers I'm willing to help you find your way around Wikipedia and give you ongoing assistance IF you'll make a serious commitment to learning and following the conduct and editing guidelines on Wikipedia. I have no idea if you know how bad some of your earlier actions look, but there are some rules I'll need to go over with you if I'm going to be able to really help you. (I'll post this same request for a commitment over on your talk page.) As soon as I get a definite yes from you, I'm ready to help. Cloveapple (talk) 21:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

HI Cloveapple - my revenge (band) article

I responded to your most recent response regarding the WCAX article. Also, the Admin is willing to userfy the article for me to work to improve it. Would you be willing to give me some pointers as to this and explain what some of the ins and outs are. I am really working hard to be successful and meet guidelines here. Thanks very much! Take care Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 17:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help you figure some of this stuff out. :-) I'm about to head to work so I'll give you a longer response later. Cloveapple (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The Alexander (Meermin) pape

Hi there, thanks for your offer of help! Haploidavey has sent me the 2007 paper (MA thesis); do you know or can you find out if you can get hold of 2003 (BA thesis) paper anywhere? (Might be best to keep all the correspondence on my talk, as that's where most of the rest of us are!) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:25, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Replied on ThatPeskyCommoner's talk. Cloveapple (talk) 19:45, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit-a-thon at Hennepin County Library

Minneapolis History edit-a-thon

We invite the Minnesota Wikipedia community and local historians to edit entries in Wikipedia on Minneapolis history. Please help us increase the depth of information on Minneapolis history topics by utilizing materials in the Minneapolis Collection. Find your own Minneapolis History topics to edit or work from a list developed by Special Collections Librarians.

Where: Minneapolis Central Library, 300 Nicollet Mall, Minneapolis
When: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 10-5 pm
10 am - 11 am Orientation to Minneapolis Collection
11 am - 5 pm Edit-a-thon
Website: Hennepin County Library, Special Collections, Map & Directions
Parking: Metered street parking or pay ramp in basement, enter on 4th Ave --HCLschlubb (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Mowgley the whale

Hi. I'm guessing one other person agreeing to delete it is enough? No one else has added anything and it's been a few days, so should I go on and delete the article? SaberToothedWhale (talk) 17:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you asked before deleting. As an involved party you should definitely not be the person to delete. An Afd usually runs at least 7 days and needs to be closed by somebody who is not involved in the discussion. Usually it's an admin that closes the Afd discussion and the closer will do whatever's needed. (Some Afds are closed by experienced editors instead of by an admin.) Don't worry. It's not being ignored. It just takes a little time for the whole thing to play out.

If you look at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion you can see that there is a list of Curent discussions and a list of Old discussions (that are being closed). Mowgley was only nominated on the 13th and the list shows that today people are just starting to close Afds from the 8th. Cloveapple (talk) 18:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll leave it be. SaberToothedWhale (talk) 19:24, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Thorasu

I've left you a note at WP:RX. The guy might just remember who he was writing for at that time. - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. That's a great idea. I hope he does since it would be a wonderful source for a bunch of hard to reference Indian articles. Cloveapple (talk) 18:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Cloveapple. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia Awards.
Message added 20:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

mabdul 20:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Cloveapple. You have new messages at Alpha Quadrant's talk page.
Message added 21:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Minnesota History Edit-a-thon 2/25/2012

Hello Cloveapple!

It was nice meeting you yesterday and I've enjoyed reading your article on the Amazon Bookstore Cooperative. Special Collections really has a treasure trove of information on all our topics...I forgot how much time it takes to read and then select what's needed for a Wikipedia article. At the Foot of the Mountain Theater is another group you may be interested in: http://www.marthaboesing.com/about.htm Thanks for you work to document the history of these important Minnesota women's organizations! Mdougla (talk) 15:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad I got to meet you too. I agree it's a slow process. I've still got more work to do on the article. I often find that I need to let stuff settle in my head after first reading it before I know what I'm going to do with it. I'd never used Special Collections before so I had no idea how cool they were. I definitely need to go back.

At the Foot of the Mountain Theater would be good to add if it's not there yet. It makes me laugh when people say the encyclopedia is mostly written. There are still so many many gaps and a lot of pre-internet stuff is really underrepresented. (Not to mention non-western countries, women, the arts....etc...etc) I looked at the Mabeth Hurd Paige article and it gives a good overview. Nice work! Cloveapple (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

talkback

you have messages at walter55024s talk page.--Walter55024 (talk) 18:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC) you have more messages at walter55024s talk page.--Walter55024 (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Replied there. Cloveapple (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

you have even more messages on walter55024s talk page.--Walter55024 (talk) 01:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC) would you like to join our dicsssion.--Walter55024 (talk) 23:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I have your talk page on my watch list. That means I'll notice new messages there. I probably won't write there every day, but I will check it every couple days.

Or are you asking me if I'll join your discussion on your adoption page? I had figured that was mostly a more private area for you and Worm to talk. But if you are asking me to participate, and if Worm is ok with it, then I'll look in there every now and then. I'm not on Wikipedia all the time, and when I am here there are lots of different things I am working on, so I won't stop there every day. Cloveapple (talk) 07:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

well i will ask worm and give you a reply later.--Walter55024 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC) yes,you are allowed.--Walter55024 (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It's as open as Walter would like it to be, I'd certainly appreciate any opinions from your good self! Worm^TT · (talk) 12:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Then I'd be glad to stop in from time to time. Thank you both for the invite. Cloveapple (talk) 12:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	thanks. Walter55024 (talk) 12:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. I hope you have a great time learning stuff with Worm. Cloveapple (talk) 15:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Undue kindness

Cchallag (talk · contribs) is a blatant spammer. See User talk:Yngvadottir#cchallag (×3) and my message below them. There is no reason to talk to him gently. The article in question was PureView Pro. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 11:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh my. COI to the max. Thanks for letting me know. I may be overly gentle in many of my messages but I prefer to err in that direction. I honestly believe that most new posters don't really understand the tangle of our policies and procedures. Even many of the COI editors don't know that there are COI guidelines. If they turn out to be total jerks I just figure I've given them extra rope, and if I occasionally look like a fool by being nice, I can live with that. Cloveapple (talk) 12:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Hi Cloveapple, thanks for the great comments for me. If I am jerk then please close my account. I give up anyway. Thanks for helping me out. Good luck — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cchallag (talk • contribs) 06:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

My comment above was not a subtle way of calling you a jerk. I don't know you nearly well enough to have any opinion on you as a person. I was referring to past situations where an editor or two that I was trying to help did truly obnoxious things things such as lying, making untrue accusations against other editors,etc. I do think you have a conflict of interest when it comes to this particular article that will make working on it more difficult for you than if you edited a subject you have no strong connection to. I do not think that makes you a jerk.

Did you see RHaworth's suggestions on his talk page? If you do follow his suggestion of submitting a draft of the article to Articles for creation, I'd be willing to help you understand how to fix the article to meet our standards. The first standard you would need to meet is that you must base the article on reliable sources. To write a Wikipedia article you must gather sources such as books, magazine articles, or newspaper articles that cover the subject you want to write about. Cloveapple (talk) 16:53, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I am going to make Cchallag sweat a bit more but I will tell you "privately" to check the edit history of user:Cchallag/sandbox. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 19:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Come on guys, making me sweat would not helpful to anyone unless you guys want to take pleasure in it. I think I am gonna get in touch with you for all the articles in future to validate. Lets be very objective here and solve this sooner and get the information to Wikipedia so that people will read from here. The more time we spent in arguing is the amount of the time we are going to point enthusiasts to go and get information from other sites. I really want people to read from Wikipedia than any other places. Just to make sure, I am doing this with my personal interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cchallag (talk • contribs) 20:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Cchallag, stop moaning! Did you actually read my post immediately above yours? — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 20:53, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Well timing problem. btw I think there is lot of difference between moaning and requesting. Thanks for giving me back the article. Cchallag (talk) 21:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Help Please

Hi Cloveapple Could you please suggest me the changes or if it becomes a real COI could you point me out to someone who is there to help me in publishing this article? Thanks in advance. Cchallag (talk) 21:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

• Do you expect us to do your spamming for you? I have already pointed you to this advice where I say: "find existing articles here comparable to the one you want to create". You are the one who wants it published, you do the research. I see you have already tried User talk:Mdwh#cchallag. Be patient, await a reply from there and try others. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

You may (as RHaworth suggested) find a sponsor who is willing to write the article. I would not be willing to write the article myself. (It's not a topic that interests me and I have a to-do list many miles long as it is.) However if you can't find a sponsor who will write it and you are willing to put some work into it, then I am willing to help you understand some of the Wikipedia basics and to go over any drafts with you as you submit them to Articles for creation. I'm willing to explain in detail.

As for changes the first and most important change you would have to make is to collect a pile of magazine articles, newspaper articles, or books that discuss the subject of the article. Those need to be the foundation of the article. Anything in the article must come from a reliable source. Until you have found sources I can't help you with your draft. The second change would be eliminating anything that looks like the stuff discussed at WP:PEACOCK.

I don't think you quite understand the COI concept. It will always be a "real COI" for you to write about this subject. All of us have subjects we are too close to to be easily neutral about. For example I have several people in my family or circle of friends who are notable and could easily be the subject of a Wikipedia article. If I try to write an article about any of them then I will have a COI in that situation. Cloveapple (talk) 07:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cloveapple

I want to say that I am going to take a break, reassess what I'd like to do, and perhaps do some minor editing to other articles for the time being. While I was disheartened that MikeWazowski deleted the article without, what I feel, should have been more discussion with me on my talk page beforehand, I nevertheless made some poor decisions and upon reading more of Wikipedia policy, feel bad about that. I did apologize to Mike on his talk page. I wanted to let you know that you have been wonderful through this process and I have always appreciated your support. I know that My Revenge (band) are a prominent band, particularly within their home city. I think there are others who would also like to see more Wikipedia coverage on Vermont musicians will attempt to improve this article. In the meantime, thanks again for your support and helpfulness throughout. Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging poor decisions in the past. I won't repeat this after this once, but Mike was only a small part of why the article got deleted.

• Yes, he nominated it for deletion but other people agreed that it should be deleted. And at the end Mike was not the person who actually deleted it. (That would be the admin who closed the discussion and judged what the consensus was.)
• Although I know My Revenge is important to you personally, they fall near the border of Wikipedia notability. (Remember Wikipedia's notability is just about coverage by sources, not about value to the world.)
• Obviously I thought there was a chance of pulling the article out of the fire or I wouldn't have worked on it. I believe it might have survived that deletion discussion if it hadn't become such a circus that nobody wanted to help fix the article. It was impossible for people to look past the nastiness there. I know that if I had not already committed to working on the article I would have taken one look at that deletion discussion and walked away holding my nose.

I'll fully admit I felt let down by a number of your earlier actions, but that was yesterday and if you've truly left it behind I won't be mentioning it again. If you want input on some things that might help you get on track, I've got some suggestions but I won't push them on you. I hope you find your feet here and that a year from now you have some awesome articles in your editing history. Cloveapple (talk) 10:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cloveapple, you'll notice I've been inactive the past few weeks, and this is because I've been reading up on Wikipedia policies, guidelines, etc...(there's a lot of info!) Again, I am truly sorry for my screw ups, as I said to Mike, no excuses, I'm just truly sorry. (see my apology on Mike's talk page). It's not that My Revenge is important to me personally so much, rather, it's more that I spent a lot of time on the article and I care about Vermont Music. Vermont Music is what's important to me personally. In that regard, thank you for your work on the article and for your welcoming presence, it's always been very appreciated.

As a side note, I think one of the pitfalls/shortcomings of Wikipedia (and it's no ones fault) is that there are a ton of articles - many band articles even - that exist on Wikipedia with few or no tags that are in significantly worse shape than my My Revenge article. As such, it sets a precedent and sends a message to the public as well as potential editors, that: "hey, they did it, this is the standard of articles that appears to be allowed on here, so that's what I'll do too. Why can't mine be allowed if all these other band articles are the same or even well below the standard of the one I'm doing."

So unfortunately, that was really misleading to me. (and again, it's no editor's fault, it's just due to the enormous volume of articles that a lot slip through the cracks). So then when Mike was coming down so hard, it appeared to me like he had some kind of personal bias, given my perception of other Wikipedia articles. This angered me a lot. I recognize now that that's not true, hence my apology to him.

Anyhow, I just wanted to explain that and also let you know that I am committed to getting everything on track 100%, and have been working on that the past several weeks. Thank you again!! Sincerely, Vermont Hardcore Punk (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)