Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Dragonlance locations

List of Dragonlance locations

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There was a discussion regarding how there are reliable sources, but the only thing that was pointed out was a wiki, which cannot be considered a reliable source unless a substantial portion can be attributed to credentialed staff. I have searched around for sources on Dragonlance locations, but the only results I have found were some results on Google Books that look like they copied directly from Wikipedia, and are thus not reliable. Reliable secondary sources are a necessity in order for something to be notable, and I do not believe that such reliable sources exist. New questions? 07:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note This location list has three subarticles on locations (Ansalon, Krynn, Taladas), which at this time probably shouldn't have stand-alone articles. They are not included in this AfD, but the outcome of this AfD might affect their future. – sgeureka ^t•c 11:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- If necessary, Krynn can probably be merged into the main Dragonlance article. Regards, RJH (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Unless additional sources can be found that are reliable third-party sources, the article fails WP:GNG. - Sudo Ghost 11:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:24, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. RJH (talk) 21:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Unfortunately this is just the kind of game-based cultural material that isn't going to have a lot of independent, reliable sources available. I made a search attempt but didn't find anything of use besides a few mentions in old computer video games. Hence I can't support a keep. Regards, RJH (talk) 21:31, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Why is this at AfD? Isn't the question a merge or redirect discussion? No one is claiming Dragonlance itself is not notable.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 13:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Moving the content into another article would not curtail the requirement for reliable, independent sources. The material would simply end up getting trimmed back. Regards, RJH (talk) 01:43, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it would, but we don't need AfD for that.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 02:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and suggest porting to a fan wiki it their isn't any similar content there, Sadads (talk) 13:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a perfectly valid spinoff of any number of Dragonlance articles on Wikipedia. As I understand it, a spinoff article shouldn't necessarily require notability independent of its parent subject (in this case, the classic series of novels). A secondary option would be to consider a merge to Krynn of any relevant material, but I don't see why that is necessary and only offer it as an alternative to deletion. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 16:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not, per WP:AVOIDSPLIT, every "spinout" or "split" article has to comply to WP:GNG, and it's perfectly logical. There is just one type of article, whether it's "spinout" or not doesn't change that.Folken de Fanel (talk) 03:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The Dragonlance world is the background of both a well known Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting (that has been supported in three editions of the D&D rules) and is featured in some best selling novels, as well as over 100 other novels. A lot of the locations in the novels have had a cultural impact on fans. There may be a case that some of the less-well known locations are not so notable, but there may also be a counter-case that this article should be expanded, with the best-known places getting their own articles. (And I think that the Ansalon, Krynn and Taladas articles are too important to be merged into this one. Ansalon represents the land of the original stories, while Taladas represents the land of a spin-off continent. There are several of these sub-settings for D&D and they demonstrate an era when TSR was attempting to build fantasy worlds on top of other fantasy worlds.)

The person who put this up for AfD should get in touch with WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons, and ask for them to put this article onto their to-do list. The people at WP D&D are very good people and it is better for Wikipedia if D&D articles that are suspected to be bad are brought to their attention. They are experts in D&D, know what is notable (and what should be kept on Wikipedia) and have worked very hard to repair many many very poor articles and have managed to get quite a few articles onto the front page of Wikipedia. The article needs to be cleaned up. For example, the section on 'Dargaard Keep' gives insufficient information on a location that is fairly important to the understanding of how this fantasy world works. Lord Soth is a fairly major background character (and the most well known example of what D&D calls a death knight) and Dargaard Keep was both his home as a living person and his prison as a death knight. Wikipedia would be a lesser thing without better information on Dargaard Keep. There is even a band called Dargaard, which takes its name from Dargaard Keep, showing that particular location is notable. And in my opinion, Wikipedia is failing by not having more about it (and death knights themselves have also become 'bigger than D&D'). That is why I said that this article should have one or more improvement templates attached to it, instead of a deletion template. Big Mac (talk) 02:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To summarize that wall of text, this article should be kept ust because you like it, and only D&D fans have the right to decide what is kept and deleted anyways...Folken de Fanel (talk) 03:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your shameful attempt to mischaracterize someone else's words barely masks a strong aura of WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. Do you feel that mocking users you disagree with helps this discussion? Do you think you can make your arguments look better by comparison by trying to make someone else look foolish? BOZ (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only shameful thing here was Big Mac saying that non-D&D people can't decide what is notable or not on D&D...as if D&D article were special and not submitted to WP:GNG like everything else. Yes, everyone is able to tell what is to be kept or not on D&D, not just D&D fans, and it was not up to Bic Mac to say "They are experts in D&D, know what is notable (and what should be kept on Wikipedia)", as if everyone else was not capable of following WP:GNG for D&D article. A statement which hides an even worse idea: if people who are using WP:GNG on D&D can't know what is notable on D&D, it means that D&D articles are following an entirely different set of policies than what the community is using (GNG), thus implying WP:OWN on D&D articles.

So now stop throwing around groundless accusations, I didn't make Big Mac look foolish, he has to take responsibilities for his own comments and what they imply, it's my right to express my disagreement with his views on D&D articles here, and I won't have you blame me and insult me for it. I don't need to make my arguments "look better" because they're already strong enough, this article fails WP:GNG, so instead of wasting your time insulting me, try to find independent sources, that would be helpful.Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See, that's not what he said. He suggested it might have been better to seek the advice of a relevant Wikiproject first before submitting this to AfD. That's pretty good advice. He didn't say that "non-D&D people can't decide what is notable or not on D&D" -- and you will note that there I am directly quoting you, not very loosely paraphrasing as you did here. You are right, you didn't make Big Mac look foolish. You may have made someone look foolish, but it wasn't Big Mac. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 00:33, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fails WP:GNG, no coverage in independent reliable sources, just overgrown trivia.Folken de Fanel (talk) 03:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the arguments of Milowent, GinsengBomb, and Big Mac. The fate of this article was being discussed on the talk page and could have been decided there instead of being prematurely brought to AFD. That said, this is a perfectly valid list article. BOZ (talk) 07:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why D&D articles should only be run at the discretion of D&D fans. There are a lot of people here whose opinion might differ from D&D enthusiasts, and I think its only fair to let them know of the issue with an AfD and allow them to express their views. In the end, it won't change anything if the article is discussed here or in the talk page (except that, of course, D&D fans are now more likely to be reminded of annoying things like WP:GNG that this article undisputably fails, a fact that they would have been likely to omit had this stayed a "family matter").

By the way, where are the independent sources proving that this is a "perfectly valid list article" ?Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]