Talk:Louise Mensch

Hypocritical Complaints of Misogynistic and Sexist Abuse on Twitter

According to the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138662/There-problem-social-media-Louise-Mensch-launches-attack-sites-bombarded-abuse.html), Ms. Mensch has complained about the level of abuse she has received on social media sites, and identifies it as 'misogynistic' and 'sexist'. One of the worst examples she cited was '‘Louise Mensch is attractive but makes me want to hit her with a hammer. In the face.’

She is quoted as saying: 'I thought it would be worth documenting the type of thing that women in public life get all the time - the insults, the threats of violence and the sexualised abuse'

In comparison to the lyrics of 'Metallica' ( managed by her husband) the abuse appears pretty mild,but I don't notice Ms. Bagshawe foregoing her share of the royalty cheques: for example:-

Die, die, die my darling Don't utter a single word Die, die, die my darling Just shut your pretty mouth I'll be seeing you again, yeah-yeah I'll be seeing you, in hell Don't cry to me oh baby Your future's in an oblong box Don't cry to me oh baby You should have seen it a-coming on Don't cry to me oh baby Had to know it was in your card Don't cry to me oh baby Dead-end soul for a dead-end girl Don't cry to me oh baby And now your life drains on the floor Don't cry to me oh baby

Or another of their 'tracks' entitled 'Mistress Dread' which goes ' Tie me with a scarf and jewels Put a bloody gag to my teeth I beg you to degrade me Is there waste that I could eat I am a secret lover I am your little girl Please spit into my mouth I’m forever in your swirl You’re heartless and I love that You have no use of me'

How true! :)80.42.227.99 (talk) 01:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)twl80.42.227.99 (talk) 01:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Marketing Background Parodied by Cocaine-Riddled Character in BBC Mockumentary 2012

In the BBC mockumentary about the 2012 Olympics 'Deliverance Committee'< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Twelve_(TV_series)#Cast>, Ms. Mensch was portrayed as Siobhan Sharpe, the whacky-dust fuelled 'Head of Brand', and director of 'Perfect Curve' an off the wall advertising agency (played brilliantly by Jessica Hynes): I feel including a link to Ms. Mensch's reactions to this should be included.212.139.105.80 (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)twl15:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Catholic?

She stood for election on the 'family values' ticket, is constantly professing her Catholic faith, and yet appears to be a divorcee - is one of these statements inaccurate? Is she adivorcee, or not a Catholic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.224.14 (talk) 00:32, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Uni

Her official site mentions that she is Oxford-educated, not Cambridge educated. I am updating the Wikipedia entry to change this.--Rossjamesparker 12:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Writer

Why is she a "writer" rather than a writer. Is this some kind of criticism of her writing style? NPOV issue here? Darmot and gilad (talk) 07:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed the quotation marks in order to remove any possible underlying insinuations. Echo park00 (talk) 10:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

P>But you left the descriptor 'Chick Lit' in, to ensure no-one was left in any doubt.80.42.235.51 (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)LouisMacLift80.42.235.51 (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Section blanking: removing properly cited items

I note that sections which could be deemed critical of Bagshawe have been removed without explanation. Please don't do this. See Biography of living persons:Public figures
JRPG (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Photo

Can someone upload a reasonable sized e.g 1MB photo free of copyright? It can be uploaded using the toolbox menu on the left but a copyright declaration is needed. Formal publicity photo are usually the best and much more acceptable to the subject than some!
JRPG (talk) 17:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi - not being technical I cannot work out how to upload a photo. But here is a link to a copyright free one from her own Parliamentary website, which offers all the pictures for download

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.louisebagshawe.net/files/images/louise_bagshawe_conference_2008.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.louisebagshawe.net/01102008_conference_speech&usg=__rmXHd-qVfCpS4cDLFy9jYpy08Mo=&h=338&w=450&sz=25&hl=en&start=18&sig2=dZ_VGSfmlxBNJzvxUxDqHg&zoom=1&tbnid=ctjp6Mm_NJtnFM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=126&ei=FlgHTvGSFoSX8QOf06CwDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlouise%2Bmensch%2Bmp%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D577%26tbs%3Disz:m%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=102&vpy=269&dur=2329&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=160&ty=214&page=2&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:18&biw=1280&bih=577

Here is another that seems to be the standard picture used by Parliament

http://www.louisemensch.net/images/louise_bagshawe_2010.jpg

There is also one of Cameron and her in the gallery section of the MP website, offered for free use download. I cannot link to it directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.234.73 (talk) 16:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Good suggestions, thank you... I'll look at how to best get some of them uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, and then we can use them in the article. Have a look at commons, it's a lot easier to use than Wikipedia IMO (being younger and less baggage!) and might be something you'd enjoy. Andrewa (talk) 21:30, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Whilst I could upload the photos, an unequivocal statement by the copyright owner -usually the photographer renouncing copyright which can be emailed to wikipedia is needed.

These both appear to have copyright claims. From experience with other MPS, I suggest you email her or ring her office manager. JRPG (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Move to Louise Mensch?

I note that when the subject of this article spoke in Parliament today, she was credited as "Mrs. Louise Mensch" (this link is temporary), and her website has been changed. This seems to indicate that she will be using her new married name in her political life. It is unclear whether her books will be published or republished under this name, but would it be generally agreed that her article should be moved and renamed? Sam Blacketer (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I was a little surprised it was changed as most women on public life keep their name. However, it has changed on her website so its reasonable for us to do so. If we change, theyworkforyou.com will probably change.JRPG (talk) 22:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Per naming conventions, we move it when reliable sources change it - and I suspect newspapers will cotton on soon enough. If they don't change their usage, we shouldn't change the article. Bastin 22:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

When a member of parliament decides to use a different name, the way it usually works is that the member's office tells the national media that he or she wants to be reported under that new name, and they generally fall into line, unless they are consciously trying to be difficult, which sometimes happens. So I would expect Louise Bagshawe/Mensch to sort it out quite quickly, and in the mean time we can wait for developments. Moonraker (talk) 22:54, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems the books will still be written by Louise Bagshawe, but the Parliamentarian will definitely be Louise Mensch. See tweet. Very difficult situation; interestingly the Evening Standard diary column today simply states that the Wikipedia article has had the name changed. Her biography on the Parliament website is now under Mensch. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, after seeing in the Northamptonshire Evening Telegraph for today (Saturday 11 June) on page 13 a story reporting a routine political campaign in which it is 'Corby and East Northants MP Louise Mensch' helping, I've been bold and moved the page. Links have been changed but she will remain Louise Bagshawe in any mention relating to before her marriage, and also any mention relating to her career as novelist. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:30, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I moved back before I saw that. I did just check and have seen references in national newspapers to 'Bagshawe' since her marriage. Agree we should move as and when the balance changes. Bastin 22:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I gather she is going to go on using both names, one as a novelist (no doubt because 'Louise Bagshawe' will sell more books than 'Louise Mensch') and the other for her public or professional life, and of course she won't be the first. I suppose the question for us here is "Which aspect of this subject is more notable?" If Lewis Carroll had become a member of parliament and gone on to be Prime Minister, we should probably have our article on him at Charles Dodgson. If he had become a backbench member but no more than that, we almost certainly would still have him at Lewis Carroll. But then Bagshawe isn't Carroll. Moonraker (talk) 22:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Rupert Allason is an article and Nigel West is a redirect, although in that case it is a pseudonym. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

We should use whatever reliable sources say, which differs on a case-by-case basis. It's not for us to determine iron laws of determining how she's most notable. We cite sources. In this case, we look at what the majority of articles by major national newspapers use to refer to her when describing her in a non-specialist way (eg not election results or book reviews). If they keep using 'Bagshawe' - for whatever reason, be it because they think her books are more important or because of inertia - Wikipedia does the same. Bastin 22:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

In any conflict between a newspaper (even the most highly reliable newspaper) and the official publications of Parliament, I would unhesitatingly prefer the latter. A quick glance at the corrections column may explain why. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

NB [1] Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Since that's written by her, it's not a reliable source, so is to be ignored. Your 'unhesitating' belief that primary sources trump reliable sources is at odds with Wikipedia policy. As far as Google News shows, there's one source that calls her Mensch, whereas quite a few still refer to her as Bagshawe. Thus, we stick with Bagshawe. Bastin 15:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me for saying it but I think your argument is incredibly stupid. Are you saying Louise Mensch isn't a reliable source for the fact that her name is now Louise Mensch? Sam Blacketer (talk) 15:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is the policy that I'm citing: "The general rule in such cases is to title the article with the name by which the person is best known". That is, we do not do as she requests or as her 'legal' name is. We do as reliable sources do: which happens to be Wikipedia policy on just about everything. It's really quite simple. If you can't understand it, don't call Wikipedia policy stupid. Bastin 22:55, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Bastin's link is to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, which does not exclude relying on even self-published sources in certain circumstances. In English law, a person's name is what they call themselves, it's as simple as that, and I have no problem with someone being cited as a reliable source for what their own name is, so on that point I agree with Sam Blacketer. However, if Louise Mensch is a reliable source for the fact that her name is now Louise Mensch, it must follow that Louise Bagshawe is a reliable source for her name being Louise Bagshawe, and when she next comes to publicize a novel, whether in print or otherwise, we can be sure she will call herself Bagshawe, because that will sell more books, so are we any farther forward? Seems a pity we can't face up to the fact that many people now are called one thing in one context and another thing in another. On the whole, as in the case of Lewis Carroll/C. L. Dodgson, Wikipedia muddles its way through to choosing one name over the other, but the Wikipedias in different languages can and do make quite different choices. In principle, there's no reason why we couldn't have our article at Louise Bagshawe (otherwise Louise Mensch), or some such formula.

Of course, having a surname at all (or else more than one) was never essential or compulsory, it's just a social convention which is promoted now by most technocratic states, but it's already showing signs of breaking down. More and more women and other civil partners do not change their name in the workplace when they get married, and given that more than two-fifths of the births in the United Kingdom are to unmarried parents, it's becoming quite common for children to use one name at school and another on a passport. Sooner or later, we are going to need to come to terms with the increasing uncertainty of surnames. Moonraker (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I really don't think this is worth more than a few seconds discussion. The following description of Mensch's wishes is given in the Telegraph.

Louise Mensch is Conservative MP for Corby and East Northamptonshire. She is also a well-known novelist, writing under her maiden name of Louise Bagshawe.

Any newspaper wanting her to write a second article would follow her wishes, and we can't be criticised for doing the same.JRPG (talk) 12:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and because it's written at her request, it's not a reliable source. Otherwise, we could say (without attribution) that Policy Exchange "is an independent think tank working for better public services, a stronger society and a more dynamic economy", that Katharine Birbalsingh "exposed the failings of the comprehensive school system at the Conservative Party conference last year", that Brendan O'Neill is "dedicated to raising the horizons of humanity", and - of course - that James Delingpole is "right about everything". Don't know about you, but it seems as though your use of puff as a source is pretty ill-advised.

Instead, and here's the point of the policy, Wikipedia does what newspapers do in their capacity of reporting the news. We ignore adverts, op-eds, etc - you are trying to cite adverts for op-eds! If you could please just provide sources that refute the Google News evidence I provided above that she is still better known as 'Louise Bagshawe', that'd be great. Otherwise, this isn't worth more than a few seconds' discussion. Bastin 07:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Strong consensus, valid arguments, patience (shown despite denials) now rewarded I hope. Hang in there! Andrewa (talk) 11:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Louise Bagshawe → Louise Mensch – I'm out of patience with the idiocy on this page. On or about 2 June Miss Louise Bagshawe married Peter Mensch and announced that she was changing her surname. Her own website has all been changed as has her twitter account, and her Parliamentary biography. She writes as Louise Mensch, speaks as Louise Mensch, and is written about as Louise Mensch in the Independent, the Daily Star, the Mirror, and the Metro, not to mention her local paper the Northants Evening Telegraph (not online). On 7 June, page 3, is an article headed "MP changes name" which states that she will be Louise Mensch. On 9 June, page 7 and on 11 June, page 13, are articles making routine mention of "Louise Mensch" constituency activities making no mention of 'Bagshawe'. The fact that other newspapers, knowing that people may be familiar with 'Louise Bagshawe' and some unaware of her change of name, may still use it, is really neither here nor there and it is sheer idiocy to wait for them to come into line with a change which has clearly happened. If policy says different then that policy is idiotic too. Louise Bagshawe has changed her name to Louise Mensch and it is long overdue for her biography to acknowledge it. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:24, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Policy is not idiocy. If you want to recreate "Who's Who", do that, but Wikipedia cites reliable third-party sources - as stated in the policy on names adopted on marriage that I linked to TWICE and to which you did not even attempt to respond. As such, all of that is irrelevant... except for the links to the news articles that refer to her as Louise Mensch. So I support the move. Bastin 15:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. It seems commonsense and therefore doesn't contradict policy which is based on commonsense. JRPG (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support. It's clear that, since the marriage, Mensch has become the surname most commonly used in reliable sources. In addition, we (Wikipedia) generally do move articles of BLPs who officially change their name and have requested for their new name to be used. Jenks24 (talk) 09:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Perfectly clear that it needs renaming Sotonchris (talk) 16:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Piers Morgan controversy

Seems to me as though the article needs a considered mention of the allegations she made against Piers Morgan. As far as I can tell (and an article in the Telegraph backs this up) she incorrectly quoted him and then refused to clarify during a live interview, resulting in 20+ news articles. I can probably have a crack at this later on, but feel free to pre-empt me... Luke.omahony87 (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

News Quiz as a reliable source source.

I note that references to her appearances in the news quiz have been removed, presumable because of verifiabilty problems. I've raised the question of TV programs before atWikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and they say that specified TV/radio episodes are valid albeit very hard to prove. Whether any comedy program is a good place for serious political debate is a different question altogether, but at least she had her say and knew what to expect. Please ask the noticeboard if you have any concerns. JRPG (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I am removing again because although there's no doubt about the actual appearance on the chat show, "was lampooned" etc is opinion and not as far as I can see backed up by any third party source such as a news report the following day, an article in a paper etc. It expresses opinion of the poster only. Am thus deleting this opinion whilst leaving reference to factuals like appearance and opinion on Occupy. Per Bastin 8 Nov 2011, up until now uncontested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.17.83 (talk) 21:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi there. I actually found it necessary to look the word up to ensure it wasn't falling foul of wp:npov and wasn't at all abusive. lampoon ..A light, good-humored satire seems a reasonable description of the whole show and she seemed quite comfortable during the section in question. Whilst I merely reinstated the original text, this section does seem to be the most interesting. I'll see if I can get a couple of other more experienced viewpoints. Regards JRPG (talk) 23:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Using audio/visual sources seems to me to be problematic, because even direct quotes are harder to verify than with written words.

In this case, it seems to me that the issue is an judgement on the nature of the subject's treatment show, and that for a wikipedia editor to make such a judgement amounts to original research. I'm inclined to go with the IP's suggestion that any such judgement should be included in the article only if it is reporting a review in a reliable source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

My objection to the News Quiz as a source is that any politician appearing on it is likely to be ridiculed -and hence the event is presumably not newsworthy. In my rulebook "lampoon" can only be used without quotes if everyone agrees this is a reasonable description -which is clearly not the case. Thanks to both. JRPG (talk) 12:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Catholicism?

Mrs.Mensch stood for election on the 'family values' ticket, constantly professes her Catholic faith, yet appears to be a divorcee - is one of these statements inaccurate? Is she a divorcee, or not a Catholic? Some of the information here may need to be updated.80.42.224.14 (talk) 00:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)oddsocks80.42.224.14 (talk) 00:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

This website explains it. She can't take Holy Communion. JRPG (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Snow Patrol (Managed by Peter Mensch) chosen to play at Olympics Ceremony

Should include some background on how Peter Mensch's band 'Snow Patrol' were chosen to represent Northern Ireland at the 2012 Olympics ceremony, and the allegations that his wife exerted some pressure over the choice <http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/duran-duran-and-snow-patrol-to-play-olympic-games-opening-concert-7703467.html> . Picture of Peter Mensch at <http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=151183>.

Thanks for posting the link. This is a very serious allegation but it isn't mentioned in the article so we musn't include it in a biography of a living person.

Also I can't see proof that Snow Patrol is connected with Mensch -Jazz Summers is mentioned as manager. I'm not sure the 2nd link would count as a reliable source. Regards JRPG (talk) 08:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)