Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 April 23
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April 23
Category:Female British racing drivers
Category:Theorems in Galois theory
- Category:Theorems in Galois theory - Template:Lc1
- Nominator's rationale: Delete. There is no reason to diffuse the self-contained Category:Galois theory into a microscopic subcategory. (Part of a massive campaign by Brad7777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to totally screw with the existing mathematics categorization.) Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: I have no opinion on the merits of this category, but it was emptied (and removed from all its head categories) out of process. I have left a note for the nominator about this. – Fayenatic L (talk) 15:19, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Comment To understand Professor Biały's comments, it suffices to consult the discussions of Brad's good-faith recategorizations, e.g. at the WikiProject Mathematics and Brad's talk page. Sadly, Brad's efforts are only several orders of magnitude more informed than the generic floundering at "Categories for Discussion/Deletion". Kiefer.Wolfowitz 5:47 pm, Today (UTC+2) —Preceding undated comment added 17:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC).
- Proposal: how about renaming it to Galois representations, which is clearly more than Galois theory. -- Taku (talk) 16:12, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Renaming what? Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Are you proposing creating a category in lattice theory? (Birkhoff has a discussion of Galois correspondences in his monograph.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Renaming what? Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Relisting comment: from CfD 2012 April 15
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:53, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- WikiProject Mathematics has been notified. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, looking at the related changes, this category only ever had 4 entries, and the parent has only 32. So I don't think that the parent is too large for browsing, but this one was indeed quite tiny and I don't see a high change of growth in the near future. So I agree with: merge this one to its parent (apaprently already done) and delete this one. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Related changes looks only at the articles currently linked on the page. I'm not sure if it's useful for telling how many entries there have been in a category. (You can test this by removing an article from a category and then looking at that category's related changes – once you remove the page from the category, it disappears from related changes as well). Jafeluv (talk) 19:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- I looked at the related changes for the parent category, where the articles were moved back to. I noted only four edits on April 15 that restored the original parent category to various pages. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense. Never mind then :) Jafeluv (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- I looked at the related changes for the parent category, where the articles were moved back to. I noted only four edits on April 15 that restored the original parent category to various pages. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Related changes looks only at the articles currently linked on the page. I'm not sure if it's useful for telling how many entries there have been in a category. (You can test this by removing an article from a category and then looking at that category's related changes – once you remove the page from the category, it disappears from related changes as well). Jafeluv (talk) 19:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- comment delete, the further sub distinction doesn't seem necessary for navigation.--KarlB (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Keep: There may only be a few dozen theorems in Galois Theory notable enough for Wikipedia, and even before depopulation not many were listed here. But that's not a valid reason for deletion. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. My general feeling is that having categories of the form "Theorems in..." is a mistake, because most of the categorization is based on the title of an article (a syntactic consideration) rather than on the semantics of what the article is actually about. As an example from a different category, Dilworth's theorem is categorized as a theorem, because it has "theorem" in the title, but with very minor changes the same article could instead have been titled Width (order theory) in which case it would not be classified as a theorem. But, this CfD does not do much to resolve the problematic nature of these categories, because it only affects one relatively insignificant category, and as long as we're keeping the rest of these categories I don't see the additional harm in keeping this one. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Category:Sports in the Marshall Islands
Category:Reed aerophones
Category:History of Albania during Ottoman administration
Category:Old Westminsters
- Propose renaming: Category:Old Westminsters to Category:People educated at Westminster School, London
- Nominator's rationale: Rename, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC and note below) which combines a plain English phrase with the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category to the non-specialist reader for whom Wikipedia is written, by eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
- The proposed name follows the "People educated at Foo" convention of Category:People educated by school in the United Kingdom. Since 305 "Old Fooian" categories have been renamed in 82 separate CfDs, this convention is now used by by all but 11 of the ~1,045 people-by-school categories in the UK. It adds a geogrpahical disambiguator to distinguish the London school from the many other similarly-named schools listed at Westminster School (disambiguation).
- Westminster School is one of the most prominent public schools in the United Kingdom. However, the term "Old Westminsters" is highly ambiguous. Westminster (disambiguation) list many different meanings, and an "old Westminster" could refer to all sorts of things, such as an old Westminster car or an old Westminster helicopter. The ambiguity is demonstrated by the fact that a Google News search for the singular form "Old Westminster" throws up masses of false positives. As shown by the table below, the plural term "Old Westminsters" is much less widely-used than the the Old Fooian terms for the two most prominent schools, Eton and Harrow.
Articles | Category | CER[1] | School | GNews hits school name |
GNews hits "Old Fooian" |
Notes | GNews hits "Old FooianS" |
Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
360 | Old Carthusians | C R | Charterhouse School | 703 | 97 | Abbout 35 of these hits refer old Old Cathusian monks, Old Carthiusian monsateries etc | 76 | Some of these hits are for the eponymous sports club |
285 | Old Cliftonians | R | Clifton College | 1240 | 36 | 28 | Hits mostly relate to the eponymous sports club | |
2437 | Old Etonians | C E | Eton College | 7930 | 4290 | 1210 | ||
738 | Old Harrovians | R | Harrow School | 2980 | 417 | 78 | ||
188 | Old Malvernians | R | Malvern School | 287 | 7 | 27 | At least 13 of the 27 hits are for the sports club | |
354 | Old Marlburians | E | Marlborough College | 2370 | 27 | 12 | ||
113 | Old Radleians | R | Radley College | 562 | 8 | 16 | ||
445 | Old Rugbeians | C R | Rugby School | 3730 | 26 | 20 | ||
208 | Old Salopians | C R | Shrewsbury School | 1630 | 38 | 10 | ||
646 | Old Westminsters | C E | Westminster School | 11,000 | 4210 | Masses of false positives for "Old Westminster" and "Westminster school" | 37 | |
602 | Old Wykehamists | C R | Winchester College | 1420 | 38 | 20 |
- In previous discussions, some editors have expressed a preference for retaining "Old Fooian" category names for prominent schools. However, there has been a consensus to rename such categories where the "Old Fooian" terms is obscure or ambiguous, including:
- ^ a b C = "Clarendon Group" of schools reformed by the Public Schools Act 1868; E = Eton Group; R = Rugby Group
- Note that in previous discussions of "Old Fooian" categoiries, some editors who appear not to have read WP:NDESC have claimed that the full phrase "People educated at Foo School" must be sourced. This is incorrect: WP:NDESC explicitly says that such titles "are often invented specifically for articles", and that is the case here, where a plain English phrase is combined with the WP:COMMONNAME of the school. (A further paragraph of NDESC refers to the use of non-neutral terms in titles, which does not apply here). However, if editors do want sourcing despite the lack of a requirement for it, then please note that a Google News search for the phrase "Educated at Westminster School" throws up 87 hits, which is more than twice as many as the 37 Gnews hits for the jargon term "Old Westminsters".
- Descriptive titles are used in tens of thousands of Wikipedia categories, including the closely-related example of the heavily-populated Category:People by city. The use of demonyms as category names for people from towns and cities is specifically deprecated in the Categorization of people guideline. That issue was settled at CfD back in July 2006 and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least August 2006. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Discussion (Old Westminsters)
- Support the merge to the clear, concise, unambiguous, non-confusing, jargon-free, more commonly used and standardised name. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- support rename for clarity, per previous CfDs. almost a snowball at this point.--KarlB (talk) 21:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rename. I think we're able to rename the remaining five categories as well.--Mike Selinker (talk) 01:02, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- I nominated this one separately because I thought it needed a disambiguator, whereas the others don't.
- I suggest leaving the other 5 until the discussions on Old Etonians and Old Harrovians are closed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom. It is time for total consistency with these cats. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:03, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom and per dozens of similar cfds over the last year or so. Oculi (talk) 10:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Keep -- This concerns the old boys of a major public day school that has existed for 100s of years. The term is not obscure. However, the decision on this ought to match Old Harrovians. Depsite the number of false positives in the Gnewshits, it should be noted that the category contains 850 names. This is a measure of the school's significance and accordingly of the alumni category. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Peter, there currently 651 articles in the category rather than the 850 you mention, but it's still a big number and I agree with you about the significance of the school. However, the significance of the school does not appear to have translated into widespread usage of the term "Old Westminsters", because as shown in the table above there are only 32 hits on Google News for "Old Westminsters". That's less than 1/20th of the number of Gnews hits for "Old Etonians" and less than half the 87 Gnews hits for "educated at westminster school".
- So even before we consider the ambiguity of the term or the benefits of a consistent naming format, the sources point to the use of the descriptive format. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:24, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- rename. keep disambiguator. I have no idea what an Old Westminster is, in spite of their famous alumni. Sorry, for the rest of the english-speaking world, these names are still obscure. --KarlB (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom and per recent CFDs. Snappy (talk) 17:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rename It is time for the change. In this case, is it possible this might be a term for former members of Parliament?John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Comment I am not sure that we need the London disambiguator though. Westminster School is about the institution in question here. The Old foos (it is not old fooians, that would be old Westminsterians) form here does not shout a connection to a school, it might mean former or aged residents of any place called Westminster. However the school is presumed to not need disambiguation. If that is not the case a rename of the article title should probably be done first.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. WP:TITLECHANGES is explicit that titles should be sourced. "Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names." If there is a need for disambiguation then it can be done in other ways. Cjc13 (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the full Wikipedia:Article titles rather than cherry picking favourable quotes. Your point has been answered many times before, including in the nominator's rationale. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rename for clarity per past CFDs, there's no need to make an exception for Westminster. How often do people refer to "the Old Westminster Nick Clegg"? Timrollpickering (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rename all. This has become the standard, so these should be standardized. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:37, 30 April 2012 (UTC)