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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 April 23

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Oculi (talk | contribs) at 20:39, 7 May 2012 (Category:Old Westminsters: ct). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

April 23

Category:Female British racing drivers

Category:Theorems in Galois theory

Category:Theorems in Galois theory - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. There is no reason to diffuse the self-contained Category:Galois theory into a microscopic subcategory. (Part of a massive campaign by Brad7777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to totally screw with the existing mathematics categorization.) Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have no opinion on the merits of this category, but it was emptied (and removed from all its head categories) out of process. I have left a note for the nominator about this. – Fayenatic L (talk) 15:19, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment To understand Professor Biały's comments, it suffices to consult the discussions of Brad's good-faith recategorizations, e.g. at the WikiProject Mathematics and Brad's talk page. Sadly, Brad's efforts are only several orders of magnitude more informed than the generic floundering at "Categories for Discussion/Deletion".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 5:47 pm, Today (UTC+2) —Preceding undated comment added 17:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC).[reply]
  • Proposal: how about renaming it to Galois representations, which is clearly more than Galois theory. -- Taku (talk) 16:12, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Renaming what? Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are you proposing creating a category in lattice theory? (Birkhoff has a discussion of Galois correspondences in his monograph.)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: from CfD 2012 April 15
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:53, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Mathematics has been notified. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I can see, looking at the related changes, this category only ever had 4 entries, and the parent has only 32. So I don't think that the parent is too large for browsing, but this one was indeed quite tiny and I don't see a high change of growth in the near future. So I agree with: merge this one to its parent (apaprently already done) and delete this one. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Related changes looks only at the articles currently linked on the page. I'm not sure if it's useful for telling how many entries there have been in a category. (You can test this by removing an article from a category and then looking at that category's related changes – once you remove the page from the category, it disappears from related changes as well). Jafeluv (talk) 19:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at the related changes for the parent category, where the articles were moved back to. I noted only four edits on April 15 that restored the original parent category to various pages. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, that makes sense. Never mind then :) Jafeluv (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment delete, the further sub distinction doesn't seem necessary for navigation.--KarlB (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: There may only be a few dozen theorems in Galois Theory notable enough for Wikipedia, and even before depopulation not many were listed here. But that's not a valid reason for deletion. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. My general feeling is that having categories of the form "Theorems in..." is a mistake, because most of the categorization is based on the title of an article (a syntactic consideration) rather than on the semantics of what the article is actually about. As an example from a different category, Dilworth's theorem is categorized as a theorem, because it has "theorem" in the title, but with very minor changes the same article could instead have been titled Width (order theory) in which case it would not be classified as a theorem. But, this CfD does not do much to resolve the problematic nature of these categories, because it only affects one relatively insignificant category, and as long as we're keeping the rest of these categories I don't see the additional harm in keeping this one. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sports in the Marshall Islands

Category:Reed aerophones

Category:History of Albania during Ottoman administration

Category:Old Westminsters

Propose renaming: Category:Old Westminsters to Category:People educated at Westminster School, London
Nominator's rationale: Rename, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC and note below) which combines a plain English phrase with the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category to the non-specialist reader for whom Wikipedia is written, by eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
The proposed name follows the "People educated at Foo" convention of Category:People educated by school in the United Kingdom. Since 305 "Old Fooian" categories have been renamed in 82 separate CfDs, this convention is now used by by all but 11 of the ~1,045 people-by-school categories in the UK. It adds a geogrpahical disambiguator to distinguish the London school from the many other similarly-named schools listed at Westminster School (disambiguation).
Westminster School is one of the most prominent public schools in the United Kingdom. However, the term "Old Westminsters" is highly ambiguous. Westminster (disambiguation) list many different meanings, and an "old Westminster" could refer to all sorts of things, such as an old Westminster car or an old Westminster helicopter. The ambiguity is demonstrated by the fact that a Google News search for the singular form "Old Westminster" throws up masses of false positives. As shown by the table below, the plural term "Old Westminsters" is much less widely-used than the the Old Fooian terms for the two most prominent schools, Eton and Harrow.
Articles Category CER[1] School GNews hits
school name
GNews hits
"Old Fooian"
Notes GNews hits
"Old FooianS"
Notes
360 Old Carthusians C R Charterhouse School 703 97 Abbout 35 of these hits refer old Old Cathusian monks, Old Carthiusian monsateries etc 76 Some of these hits are for the eponymous sports club
285 Old Cliftonians R Clifton College 1240 36 28 Hits mostly relate to the eponymous sports club
2437 Old Etonians C E Eton College 7930 4290 1210
738 Old Harrovians R Harrow School 2980 417 78
188 Old Malvernians R Malvern School 287 7 27 At least 13 of the 27 hits are for the sports club
354 Old Marlburians E Marlborough College 2370 27 12
113 Old Radleians R Radley College 562 8 16
445 Old Rugbeians C R Rugby School 3730 26 20
208 Old Salopians C R Shrewsbury School 1630 38 10
646 Old Westminsters C E Westminster School 11,000 4210 Masses of false positives for "Old Westminster" and "Westminster school" 37
602 Old Wykehamists C R Winchester College 1420 38 20
In previous discussions, some editors have expressed a preference for retaining "Old Fooian" category names for prominent schools. However, there has been a consensus to rename such categories where the "Old Fooian" terms is obscure or ambiguous, including:
24 renamed categories for Old Fooians from prominent schools
Articles Category Old Fooian term School CER[1] CfD
112 People educated at Ampleforth College Old Amplefordians Ampleforth College CfD 2012 March 19
76 People educated at Bradfield College Old Bradfieldians Bradfield College R CfD 2012 March 31
61 People educated at Bryanston School Old Bryanstonians Bryanston School E CfD 2012 March 31
170 People educated at Cheltenham College Old Cheltonians Cheltenham College R CfD 2012 February 29
152 People educated at Christ's Hospital Old Blues Christ's Hospital CfD 2012 April 2
100 People educated at Downside School Old Gregorians Downside School CfD 2012 February 21
250 People educated at Dulwich College Old Alleynians Dulwich College E CfD 2012 April 7
104 People educated at Fettes College Old Fettesians Fettes College CfD 2012 March 19
215 People educated at Gresham's School Old Greshamians Gresham's School CfD 2012 April 14
104 People educated at Highgate School Old Cholmeleian Highgate School E CfD 2012 February 22
148 People educated at King's College School, Wimbledon Old King's King's College School E CfD 2011 August 17 and 2010 November 29
193 People educated at Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood Old Merchant Taylors Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood C CfD 2012 February 11
111 People educated at Millfield Old Millfieldians Millfield CfD 2012 March 19
24 People educated at Monkton Combe School Old Monktonians Monkton Combe School R CfD 2012 March 31
50 People educated at St Edward's School, Oxford Old St Edwards St Edward's School, Oxford R CfD 2012 February 11
74 People educated at Oundle School Old Oundelians Oundle School R CfD 2012 March 31
245 People educated at St Paul's School, London Old Paulines St Paul's School, London C E CfD 2012 February 26
107 People educated at Stowe School Old Stoics Stowe School R CfD 2012 February 9
75 People educated at The King's School, Canterbury Old King's Scholars The King's School, Canterbury E CfD 2012 March 6
144 People educated at Repton School Old Reptonians Repton School R CfD 2012 March 31
122 People educated at Sherborne School Old Shirburnians Sherborne School E CfD 2012 March 31
122 People educated at Tonbridge School Old Tonbridgians Tonbridge School, Kent E CfD 2012 February 28
185 People educated at University College School Old Gowers University College School, London E CfD 2012 February 25
135 People educated at Uppingham School Old Uppinghamians Uppingham School R CfD 2012 March 31
  1. ^ a b C = "Clarendon Group" of schools reformed by the Public Schools Act 1868; E = Eton Group; R = Rugby Group
Note that in previous discussions of "Old Fooian" categoiries, some editors who appear not to have read WP:NDESC have claimed that the full phrase "People educated at Foo School" must be sourced. This is incorrect: WP:NDESC explicitly says that such titles "are often invented specifically for articles", and that is the case here, where a plain English phrase is combined with the WP:COMMONNAME of the school. (A further paragraph of NDESC refers to the use of non-neutral terms in titles, which does not apply here). However, if editors do want sourcing despite the lack of a requirement for it, then please note that a Google News search for the phrase "Educated at Westminster School" throws up 87 hits, which is more than twice as many as the 37 Gnews hits for the jargon term "Old Westminsters".
Descriptive titles are used in tens of thousands of Wikipedia categories, including the closely-related example of the heavily-populated Category:People by city. The use of demonyms as category names for people from towns and cities is specifically deprecated in the Categorization of people guideline. That issue was settled at CfD back in July 2006 and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least August 2006. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion (Old Westminsters)

Category:Yes (band) Yessongs

Category:Johann Strauss II

Category:Watches (specific model)

Category:Supergroups

Category:Slovene painters

Category:Orders with sash worn on the left shoulder

Category:Yes (band) Yessongs songs

Category:Artists' muses

Category:Television series by HIT Entertainment