Talk:Aethiopia

I've changed it from being an Africa stub to being a Middle Eastern history stub. Phoenician Ethiopia wasn't in Africa, unless you view modern Israel as being an African country. M-Henry 18:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but wasn't Memnon a black king of Ethiopia during the Trojan War? Albmont 02:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's very difficult to say. Some sources say he was black, but other's have him as the son of Tithonus, a Trojan king, Eos, a Titan goddess. Anyway, it is probable that the Ethiopia mentioned by Homer (Memnon's Ethiopia) is separate from Cepheus' Ethiopia. "Ethiopia" seems to have been used by Greeks of different times for several different lands. Besides, we're not talking about a single moment in history, we're talking about the period of several centuries. Orecalimo 10:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

And the whole matter is further confused by connection of Memnon with the twin statues of Amenhotep III in the Theban necropolis. Orecalimo 10:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the Encyclopedia Britanica, Comon (the source listed for this article) has no surviving works. I'm having problems understanding how he can be considered a credible (and sole) source for this alternate version of Ethiopia when there is no way to check his work. This idea of the "Phoenician Ethiopia" seems very far-fetched. Muhrasheed 15:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

the ethiopia they mean is ancient sudan and not phoenicia, so unless m-henry or anyone else can provide proof it means phoenicia i will change the article when im next on Viola76 (talk) 06:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC) viola76

This article needs a little reworking. Ethiopia (or Aethiopia, or Aithiopia or whatever regional spelling you want to use) different things in different myths (and histories) of the ancient world. In the Andromeda myth, there are different theories as the location of Cepheus and his family. Conon of Samos (Yes, there are surviving works Muhrasheed, but no complete book with an English translation) provided a historical basis of the Andromeda/Perseus legend, basing Cepheus' kingdom around Ioppa (=Joppa, =Jaffa, =Tel Aviv). And there are other theories. What would actually be worthwhile would be to use this page to discuss the different theories and different meanings of Ethiopia in the ancient Roman and Greek sources. I'll make a start on it soon when I have time. Orecalimo 00:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Orecalimo

The word Ethiopia can be loosely translated to mean 'people of burnt faces'. This generally refers to dark peoples of the world who in ancient civilizations (and to an extent to this day) live in the area that encompassed Africa, the Middle East, Asia and Australia. If you're really interested in getting to the bottom of this issue, this http://www.nbufront.org/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/EthiopiaOriginOfCivilization.html would be a good place to start reading. If not, I guess alternative history that puts the white man on a pedestal will suffice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peelinglayers (talk • contribs) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If ancient Ethiopia is modern day Isreal, and its ancient capital, Joppa, modern day Tel Aviv, how do you put in context the wars that have gone on between Ethiopians and Isrealis as recoreded in Hebrew history? These are wars apart from the Isrealis were invovled in with Philistines, so don't attemt to paint the Ethiopians as Philistines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peelinglayers (talk • contribs) 11:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Totally Unsourced Statement

I remember reading an explanation for this odd use of "Ethiopia" – but unfortunately I can't remember the source. At some point in the 8th century BCE Egypt and Israel were ruled by the 25th Dynasty, which was of Nubian origin, and hence of "Aethiopian" (Sub-Saharan) origin in the antique sense of the word. The Perseus/Andromeda legend therefore supposedly refers back to a period when Ioppa was ruled by a 25th Dynasty/Nubian/"Aethiopian" governor. I also remember the author admitting this explanation was highly speculative. I hope this helps. 70.108.167.47 (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence to support the Perseus/Andromeda legend supposedly refers back to a period when Ioppa was ruled by a 25th Dynasty/Nubian/"Aethiopian" governor. :-) Angar432 (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Refimprove

This article is so poorly referenced that it really should be deleted. It needs both examples of mentions of Ethiopia in mythology and reliable sources regarding the subject. Fred Talk 17:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Joppa

The odd explanation for 'Ethiopia' might be attributed to some later sources misconstruing the Greek name Cassiopeia that was linked to "Iopeia/Ioppa" with "Aethiopia" and the obscure ancient geography of the times. Now as to where the mythical kingdom is on a map? Good luck trying to establish that location. Between the obscured references and different interpretations through out the centuries you also have to factor in the very different obscure geographical locations of the ancient world through ancient eyes that is vastly different from our modern geography. For example the Red Sea (Erythra Thalassa), were some sources stated Perseus fought the monster, they place somewhere in the vicinity body of water around Asian Babylonia and Persia. http://www.antiquewebsitecompany.com/map-page/map08.jpg http:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Herodotus_world_map-en.svg/788px-Herodotus_world_map-en.svg.png

No matter its obscure location never the less ancient Greeks believed the Phoenician city of Ioppa/Joppa in the Middle East to be the location of King Cepheus mythical kingdom. They traditionally linked Queen Cassiopeia's name to Iopeia/Ioppa and Pliny the Elder associates the name with Jopa, the daughter of Aeolus, god of wind. [1] Ancient sources [i.e. Pliny, Pausanias] talk about the Greek inhabitants of Joppa worshipping Perseus and holding him in high honors in the city because they believed the legend of Perseus/Andromeda took place in Joppa. According to Pliny the Elder the people of Joppa could point out the very rock that Andromeda was chained too. But in 140 BC the inhabitants of Joppa were driven out by the Maccabeus. The Greek inhabitants of Joppa fled to the nearest Hellenic controlled city at the time which was Ptolemais where apparently Perseus continued to be worshipped among them and early imperial period accounts speak of shrines dedicated to Perseus. This migration of the Greek inhabitants and their myth from Joppa to the port of Ptolemais, that was located on the shores of the current geographical location of the Red Sea, might also explain why some later sources started to associate the mythical kingdom of King Cepheus with the location of modern day Ethiopia.

Ancient references:

One of the earliest accounts is given by Lycophron, Alexandra a Greek poet from the 3rd B.C., at the kingdom of Cepheus is Hermes who was watching over Io (the Argive Princess) together with Perseus. The place was kicked by the foot of Hermes ("Hermou pternê") that caused a spring to burst forth. Some late sources identify this place with Aethiopia, but much earlier sources identify the place with cities from the Near East. Some sources have Hermes watching over Io in the ancient Greek city of Byzantium, in the foundation of which Argive colonists had taken part, and where the Bosporus derived its name, from the cow Io having swam across it. From the Thracian Bosporus the story then spread to the Cimmerian Bosporus, Panticapaeum, and as well as the city of Joppa. The Phoenician city of Ioppa/Joppa seems like a good candidate given the fact that Io was further said to have been in Joppa where her descendants the Phoenicia Cadmus and Danaus would thus "return" to mainland Greece.

1) "The towers of Cepheus and the place that was kicked by the foot of Hermes Laphrios, and the two rocks on which the petrel leapt in quest of food, but carried off in his jaws, instead of a woman, the eagle son of the golden Sire--a male with winged sandals who destroyed his liver. By the harvester’s blade shall be slain the hateful whale dismembered. The harvester who delivered of her pains in birth of horse and man the stony-eyed weasel whose children sprang from her neck. Fashioning men as statues from top to toe he shall envelop them in stone--he that stole the lamp of his three wandering guides" ~ Lycophron, Alexandra 838 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.)

2) "Joppa (now the Hebrew town of Jaffa) is said to have existed before the flood; it is situated on a hill, and in front of it is a rock on which they point out the marks made by the chains with which Andromeda was fettered; here there is a cult of the legendary goddess Ceto (the Sea-Monster)." ~ Pliny the Elder, Natural History 5. 69 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.)

3) "Red water, in color like blood, is found in the land of the Hebrews near the city of Joppa. The water is close to the sea, and the account which the natives give of the spring is that Perseus, after destroying the sea-monster, to which the daughter of Kepheus was exposed, washed off the blood in the spring." ~ Pausanias, Description of Greece 4. 35. 9 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.)

4) “Seeing the heap of Andromeda’s broken chains beside the Erythraian Sea, and that rock lying on the sand, Earthshaker’s [Poseidon’s] monstrous lump [the Sea Monster turned to stone by Perseus].” ~ Nonnus, Dionysiaca 31. 10 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) Angar432 (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Ethiopia: What we know

Scholars have agreed that in an ancient context, Ethiopia refers to a region extending from Aswan Egypt (1st Cataract) to where the Blue and White Nile meet (6th Cataract). This is effectively the location of the Kingdom of Kush, including Meroe and the previous Nubian centers at the cities of Napata and Kerma... Now, according to Richard Lobban, "Greeks referred to Nubia as "Ethiopia," including sometimes parts of "Libya Interior." " - This effectively gives the impression that Ethiopia was a loose term for a geographical region that the Greeks did not fully appreciate until they entered Egypt, but one that they knew to have been inhabited by Black Africans. In reference to Egypt, it is first described in Greek writings as having been inhabited by and founded by Ethiopians. In other words, they knew that Egypt was first established by people from Ancient Sudan.

The point I'm trying to make is that the majority of writings point to Ethiopia being the geographical region described above, Memnon being a King from either Kush or Egypt, but of Black African descent nonetheless. It was far removed from Modern-day Ethiopia, which is a modern-day misnomer.

As for the thought of Aethiopia referring to regions outside of Africa, this is also possible, because the reach of African rule has at times extended outside of Africa. For instance, the Kingdom of Sheba encompassed an appreciable part of modern-day Saudi Arabia as well as modern-day Ethiopia. Such a kingdom might have been mistaken as being a part of the Upper Nile Valley (ie. Nubia), since it too was inhabited by black Africans. Essentially, it seems that in antiquity, the term was used wherever the Greeks encountered black peoples. It's much like how today, we refer to indigenous North American peoples as "Indian", sometimes, regardless of where in the Americas they're from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktheconjurer (talk • contribs) 17:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

"Scholars have agreed" to no such thing, my friend... Did you read the entire article? Lobban may represent one western school of thought on the meaning of all these classical Greek references to Aethiopia, but certainly his POV does not enjoy a monopoly. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the prevalent view is also the more correct one, that Herodotus, Diodorus and Strabo's words clearly described "Aethiopia" as including ALL of Sub-Saharan Africa -- even as far as the Atlantic Ocean which was therefore called the Aethiopian Sea. They also clearly described the kingdom at Meroe (the Kushites) as but one of several entities within the vast region of "Aethiopia", ie Black Africa. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually there is no clear consensus by Classical scholars as to where Ethiopia was or WHO were the Ethiopians. Many times Herodotus and others applied the term to South Indians and other Asian populations as well. If we go by Classical sources they are as obscere as ever.

Actually there is no clear consensus by Classical sources as to where Ethiopia was or who were the "Ethiopians". If we go by Classical sources they are as obscure as ever in regards to 'Ethiopia'. Herodotus and other ancient sources even applied the term to South Indians and other Asian populations as well.

"The eastern Ethiopians in Asia have straight hair; while the African Ethiopians have the most curly hair of all the nations." ~ Herodotus (Angar432 (talk) 16:18, 10 May 2012 (UTC))