Talk:Che Guevara

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Guevara and "Irish" (Norman aristocrat) ancestry

In the article of his early life, a quote is given where his father talks about supposed "blood of Irish rebels", however this romantic gloss does not match history or facts of Guevara's actual ancestry. Che's "Irish" ancestry is Anglo-Irish and aristocratic (ie - Norman). His ancestor was Patrick Lynch (Argentina), whose family owned Lydican Castle in Galway (his ancestors actually benefited from the confiscation of land from the local Catholic cheiftan). While the concept of his ancestry as some sort of "Gaelic rebel" and famine-lore is popular amongst IRA types, the reality is far more aristocratic. - Rí Lughaid (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Im Irish but my family are all Ulster scots i have irish citizenship and consider myself Irish che is no differnt in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.12.128 (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hasta la victoria siempre

Here the article says the English translation is "Until the Everlasting Victory Always", the word everlasting is redundant as there is nothing everlasting in the original Spanish. I think the idea and what he meant is that the revolution/fighting will always go on until victory. I would therefore simply translate as "Always until victory", it doesn't sound as glamorous as the present translation but to me it's truer to what it is said in Spanish. PatrickC (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe "Until the Eternal Victory" would be an accurate (more literal) translation, and have changed it accordingly. Your thoughts?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this expression is nuanced enough and unclear that we may need citations. I found two Google books Always until victory and Always unto victory. We may have to cite these expressions. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems that "Always until victory" or variations thereof is a common translation: Google results. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Che only other member in Castro's Army to given title Comandante?

Resolved

"[Che Guevara] as the only other ranked Comandante besides Fidel Castro" - a source needs to be provided for this, because this is an interesting statement. Guevara was certainly seen as being 'on equal terms' with Castro, but I am curious to learn if he indeed was the only one to hold this title of Comandante.

Was Castro's brother not also "Comandante Raúl" and was there not a Comandante Almeida, referring to Juan Almeida Bosque, as well as Comandante Ramiro Valdés? Soviet223 (talk) 17:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

A well-known Comandante was also Camilo Cienfuegos .Henrig (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Adjusted accordingly, thanks.  Redthoreau -- (talk) -- (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

German and Russian authorities state "Tania" was not a Stasi nor a KGB operative

Resolved

"Former Stasi operative Haydée Tamara Bunke Bider, better known by her nom de guerre "Tania", who had been installed as his primary agent in La Paz, was reportedly also working for the KGB..." as written in this article is unproven rumour which has been refuted by the German authorities who hold the Stasi files from the period and the Russian authorities who hold the KGB files from the period. I suggest this is amended appropriately within this article to reflect these authoritative statemnets and not baselesss rumour. See main "Tania" Wikipedia entry and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1388018/Mother-fights-Che-film-over-lover-claims.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mentionmekindly (talk • contribs) 10:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Adjusted accordingly, thanks.  Redthoreau -- (talk) -- (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The atrocities of Che

This article is biased and POV and contributes to the whitewashing of a mass murders crimes. Che was responsible for the deaths of women and children under his command, these things did not just happen (the article uses this irresponsible language) HE ORDERED THEM KILLED. A section needs to be added to make sure the reader gets this point. This article gives undue weight to a flattering view of The Butcher of La Cabaña.-- Benjamin 18:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

As with every other article in Wikipedia, you are welcome to propose new content based on and referenced to independent, reliable sources. What would you suggest? HiLo48 (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Benjamin, although you are entitled to your own ideological opinion or WP:POV, that doesn't make it fact. Probably no other issue has been more discussed, researched, and cross-checked with reliable references (from both sides of the spectrum) over the years on this TP than Che's role in the executions at La Cabaña. I would encourage you to utilize the search box on the top of this page to see the dearth of material and past WP:Consensus reached on the topic. Moreover, the article at present utilizes a range of references from his main peer reviewed biographers (i.e Anderson, Taibo II, and Castañeda) and even cross-references these numbers with the information/accusations of the anti-Che U.S.-based Cuban Archive Project (an advocacy outfit that like you believes him to be a "mass murderer") ... see --> reference 104 for a full break down of the numbers.

Now to other specifics of your WP:SOAPBOX post:

[a] - As for your "whitewash" assessment, the article is supposed to reflect the majority of scholarly and published sources, which in this case you would also probably describe as "whitewashed". However our task here is to reflect that reality, not to "correct" or "revise" it.

[b] - You have declared Guevara a "mass murder"(er) and report this as an indisputable historical fact. However, this moniker is not found in the majority of WP:RELIABLE sources per WP:UNDUE. It would be analogous to describing him with the euphemism "freedom fighter", which you actually could source to a number of biographies, but would still be inappropriate from a Wiki pov standpoint. Now it is indisputable that Guevara personally shot individuals during wartime and a "revolution". Anderson notes several (around 10) documented examples of men who were shot personally by Guevara or on his command for a number of "crimes" in the Sierra including desertion, stealing rations, raping a peasant, being an informer (chivato) etc. Anderson also notes the 55 executions at La Cabana carried out in instances where Guevara had the final appellate say on whether to suspend or lessen the death sentences handed down by the 3 person revolutionary tribunals. As not to drag this response on forever, I will point you to a previous archived discussion --> La Cabaña & Executions. With all that said, "mass murder"(er) is a judgment call and matter of opinion. For starters who defines "mass", more than one? However, the article does note that Guevara "unhesitatingly shot defectors", "executed" individuals, and that certain people consider him an "ruthless executioner", and "butcher" etc. These are all acceptable to be made note of in the article, but not as a declarative statement. As an example, President Harry Truman ordered the nuclear incineration of 100,000 + Japanese. But it would be POV to open up his article by describing him as a "mass killer of women and children", because none of the major sources do - see WP:NPOV and WP:MORALIZE. Yet one can still mention in his article the facts surrounding the dropping of the atomic bomb, or mention how some consider that a "war crime", without calling him a "war criminal" or using "atrocity".

[c] - No disinterested or major biography on Che mentions him executing any women during his time as a guerrilla or having any women executed while in charge of La Cabaña. The only writer to originate and repeatedly make this claim of one pregnant woman being shot by Che is the polemical Humberto Fontova, however he would not be a reliable source per WP:VERIFY for an neutral encyclopedia article see ---> Using Humberto Fontova.

[d] - As for Che killing "children", the usual sole accusation of a 14 year old boy being killed by Che originates from a December 28, 1997 letter to the editor of the El Nuevo Herald (Spanish Miami Herald) by the unknown Pierre San Martin (who claims to be a surviving prisoner from La Cabana). The claim had been widely purported again by Humberto Fontova in his litany of Anti-Che articles for Conservative websites, despite the fact that it is not mentioned in the other --> 40 or so Che biographies (which do not utilize the hyperbolic language or have the agenda of Fontova). Now several of the boys in Che's own units during the revolution were 15-16 years old. Many of the (now men) who fought under Che, speak about how many teenagers from the cities flocked to join the revolution and were incorporated into July 26 as Guerrillas. Is it thus plausible that those under 18 years old were executed? Sure. Especially considering the fact that teens under 18 fought on both sides of the conflict. However, by impugning the context of "killing children" (as if Che was shooting up the elementary schools) is false, as even a 16 year old during this time in Cuba in the late 1950's would have been seen as a man for all intents and purposes.

[e] - As for your moniker of him being "The Butcher of La Cabaña", the article currently makes note (in the appropriate Legacy section) of how this epithet is utilized by people like yourself who view Che unfavorably.

Redthoreau -- (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Date of birth

Hi, I apologize for my english; I used to write almost fairly in english, but that was so long ago...

Reference number 1 says that

...one tertiary source, (Julia Constenla, quoted by Jon Lee Anderson), asserts that he was actually born on May 14 of that year. Constenla alleges that she was told by an unidentified astrologer that his mother, Celia de la Serna, was already pregnant when she and Ernesto Guevara Lynch were married and that the date on the birth certificate of their son was forged to make it appear that he was born a month later than the actual date to avoid scandal. (Anderson 1997, pp. 3, 769.)

I looked for the originary source here, but I was surprised to find that the source says a completely different thing:

The horoscope was confunding. If Ernesto Che Guevara had been born on June 14, 1928, as stated on his birth certificate, then he was a Gemini... The Che who emerged from her analysis was a grey, dependent personality... But this was in the early 1960's, and Che was already one of the most people in the world. When the puzzled astrologer showed Che's mother the dismal horoscope, she laughed. Then she confied a secret that sha had guarded closely for more than three decades. Her son had actually been born a month earlier, on May 14... The deception had been necessary, because she was three months pregnant when she married Che's father... A doctor friend falsified the date on the birth certificate, moving it back by one month to help shield them from scandal

— Anderson, Che Guevara, a revolutionary life, page 3.

Looking for other versions, I found an interesting one in Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como el Che, pág. 23:[1] It says that

Existe una tercera versión, que narrará Julia Constenla, quien dirá que Celia le contó "Ernesto no nació el 14 de junio, sino el 14 de mayo. Yo me casé embarazada. Mis tías viejas hubieran muerto de saberlo. Así, apenas casados, nos fuimos a Misiones con mi marido. Y más tarde, cuando estaba por dar a luz, a Rosario, donde me atendió un primo de Guevara."

Translated to english, it says (something like)

There is a third version, told by Julia Constenla, who said Celia told her: "Ernesto was not born in June 14, but in May 14. I married being pregnant. My old aunts would have died if they would have known that. So, just after getting married, we moved to Misiones with my husband. And later, when I was about to give birth, to Rosario, where I was asisted by Guevara's cousin"

So the reference does not say that the story was told by "an unidentified astrologer". It clearly says that the story was told to Constenla by Celia De la Serna herself. There is another reference to Constenla. In Página/12 (a newspaper from Buenos Aires) there was published an interview to Constenla, on February 25, 2005 [2]. In this interview, Constenla says

“El Che nació el 14 de mayo. Sin embargo, fue anotado un mes después, el 14 de junio, para ser presentado como sietemesino, porque Celia de la Serna se casó embarazada, pero siempre quiso ocultárselo a su familia”, asegura la periodista Julia Constenla, autora de Celia, la madre del Che (Ed. Sudamericana), en donde revela el secreto mejor guardado de la familia Guevara. Un secreto que Celia le confió personalmente, a través de una relación que empezó en la primera entrevista con la madre del Che y derivó en una amistad que siguió hasta su muerte, el 18 de mayo de 1965.

Translated to english, it would be something like

"Che was born in May 14. However, he was registred a month later, on June 14, to be presented as born in 7 months, because Celia de la Serna got married when she was pregnant, but she always wanted to hide it from her family," says journalist Julia Constenla, author fo "Celia, la madre del Che" (Ed. Sudamericana), where she reveals Guevara family's best hiden secret. A secret that Celia personally told her, throug a relation that started in the fisrt interview with Che's mother y became a friendship that lasted until her death, May 18th, 1965.

So the information related here is false, that was not a tertiary source, but was somttihng told directly by Celia De la Serna to Constenla. I don't know if the story Celia told to Constenla is true, or even if Constenla is telling a true version of what Celia De la Serna told her. But the reference about the astrologer is a complete misunderstanding about an anecdote that had nothing to be with an astrologer telling anything to Constenla.

I would prefer the information would be changed by a more expert user, or at least someone who actually can write in english, not me. Thankes to anyone that reads this, sorry for the comment's length, and sorry again for my english. User:Marcelo / talk --200.32.116.2 (talk) 17:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)