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June 20

When did we stop putting full stops in initialisms?

When (in which decade) did we stop putting full stops in initialisms, so that P.O.W.s became POWs and the B.B.C. became the BBC? Thanks --catslash (talk) 00:48, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if you will find a specific decade, more likely a slow (and still ongoing) process. StuRat (talk) 01:26, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's been happening for a very long time (BBC seems to be missing full stops even in 1930), but it varies with different initialisms and different conventions in different countries. The trend is strongly in the direction of omitting full stops, but they are occasionally still seen. I was taught to put a full stop after Mr, but this was discouraged in typing classes in the 1970s and 1980s. Dbfirs 07:40, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The "blocked style" of typing, taught in the 1970s and probably from the 1960s, cut out the stops along with indented paragraphs, centered headings, and other fripperies. Typing-pool Taylorism. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:01, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I was thinking of. Did it really start as early as the 1960s? Dbfirs 11:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

It also depends very much on who "we" are. Roger (talk) 14:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I have some history with IBM and I don't think I've ever seen any full stops in that particular initialism. And that company dates back to 1911. Dismas|^(talk) 14:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the association between omitting stops in abbreviations and "blocked style", "block style", "block form", "block format" etc. is not as clear as I thought. I've found "English for Secretaries" online, an American book of 1944, which uses stops for all people's initials, and also describes the "block format" of letter with all paragraphs aligned to the left, and "open punctuation" in addresses, meaning no comma at the end of each line of the address. Still, both are part of a general trend towards simplicity, fitting with Taylorist notions of efficiency. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:29, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I found a "snippet view" of a (possibly American?) book called Simplified Library School Rules from 1904 which says "open punctuation, characterized by the avoidance of all pointing not clearly required by the construction, now prevails in the best English usage. In some cases, as in certain legal papers, title-pages, etc. punctuation is wholly omitted." Alansplodge (talk) 21:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Shifting accents in Spanish? (hidalguía)

In a book (early 20th century, in English, about Argentina, and referring here to the 18th or 19th centuries), I came across "hidalguiá"; the standard form today is clearly hidalguía. There are however a few references to the former on Google, primarily older works. Are these just typos, or could an accent have shifted from one syllable to another in the development of the language?

As a bonus question, the book also refers to "carne cum cuero"; again, could "cum" be a real word (perhaps influenced by Portuguese "com"?). Henry^Flower 10:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to Argentina by W. A. Hirst. This book is riddled with elementary errors. It's not surprising that the author relies on French sources, because his Spanish is terrible. He almost never puts an accent where one is required: he writes stuff like "Garcia", "Maria", "cancion", "critica", "pais", "nacion", etc. On the same page as "carne cum cuero", there are two instances of "payadors" instead of "payadores". That's such a basic error, it makes me think that he hasn't taken a single Spanish lesson in his life.

Even disregarding the author's ignorance, you can be sure that "hidalguiá" is not an archaic form of "hidalguía". As far back as classical Latin, the -īa suffix has carried the stress on the I. Other than proper nouns, the only Spanish words ending in "-uiá" are the vos-form imperatives of "esquiar" and "guiar". If "hidalguiar" were a verb, then "hidalguiá" would be its V-imperative. To my knowledge the only verb derived from "hidalgo" is "hidalgarse", and its V-imperative is "hidalgá". But this speculation is giving Hirst too much credit. Given his obvious ignorance of Spanish, it's reasonable to assume that "hidalguiá" is a common word misspelled rather than an incredibly rare word that he managed to spell properly.

"Carne cum cuero" is a hypercorrection. It's astonishing, given the author's ignorance of Spanish, that he felt qualified to write an entire book about a Spanish-speaking country. He even opines on the merits of Argentine poetry. LANTZY^TALK 20:01, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

If you're referring to the same digitised version of this book as I just found via Google [1], might I suggest that some or all of the errors are actually OCR errors. There are also weird errors in some of the English text. For example, the text declares itself to have been "Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2007 with funding from IVIicrosoft Corporation". It would seem this should be Microsoft, but a capital M has ended up as IVI. Many of what apparently should be currency symbols have ended up as short strings of punctuation such as ";^" and what should apparently read 1 s. 9 d. (i.e. 1 shilling, 9 pence) has ended up as is. gd. These are just a few errors I noticed from looking at a few random pages. The normally punctuated and capitalised English text is mostly fine, but a number of words all in capitals are misrendered (TONNAGE becomes TONNAGK, FACING becomes FACIKG, WOKING (the town) becomes WCKINC). This would suggest some form of OCR software with a built-in English dictionary was used. This renders standard English more or less correctly (with the occasional misreading) but would struggle with uncommon or defunct currency notations or with non-English words. In addition to the Spanish "errors" there are several French works in the bibliography where, for example, the article before a noun is rendered as I' rather than l', which is not a mistake any editor would allow to pass repeatedly. (By the way other supposed errors are not necessarily errors. "Payadors" is only incorrect if you assume that the author treats "payador" as a foreign word that requires a foreign plural. The English plural of matador - for example - is matadors, not matadores [2]). Valiantis (talk) 23:30, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Ignore the above. I just found a PDF of the (1914 edition of the) book [3] and the errors Lantzy refers to are in that too. Whilst I stand by my point about the pluralisation of words in general, as the text itself italicises "payadors", it's hard to argue that it was not intended to be understood as a foreign word with a foreign plural. Valiantis (talk) 23:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

It reminds me of "English As She Is Spoke". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks all. It is indeed the same book as on archive.org (a later printing, but with the same spelling errors). I'm not convinced the missing accents and English plurals count as error in an English book, but it's nice to know that these two are. Henry^Flower 11:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning and ???

Reasoning from the general to the special is called deduction, and reasoning from the special to the general is called induction, but what is the name for reasoning from the special to the special?

For example, "All men are mortal, and I am a man, so I am mortal" is deduction. "All men born more than 150 years ago are dead by now, so all men are mortal" is induction. "All men born more than 150 years ago are dead by now, so I am mortal" is what? Of course it can be reduced to induction and deduction: "All men born more than 150 years ago are dead by now, so all men are mortal, and so I am mortal too", but that is a detour.

What could it be called? The names obduction and reduction and production have been taken, but what about abduction or exduction ? Please give me some learned suggestion.

The reason why I ask is that I have developed programs for calculating mean values and standard deviations for deduction- and induction- and X-duction- problems, but I need a good program name for the latter. Bo Jacoby (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2012 (UTC).

Abduction is already taken (see logical reasoning for a clear comparison of it with induction and deduction, using the raining/wet grass example). benzband (talk) 10:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I agree that the concept 'abduction' is not quite what I am looking for. Another example. Suppose that I have seen ten swans and they were all white. Deduction: Each one of these swans is white. Induction: All swans are white. X-duction: The next swan I see is white. Induction and X-duction is not logically compelling, but can be quantified statistically. Bo Jacoby (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC).

Your examples seem just to constitute a particular type of induction—specifically, the type illustrated at Inductive reasoning#Prediction. Note that our article says, "Though many dictionaries define inductive reasoning as reasoning that derives general principles from specific observations, this usage is outdated." Deor (talk) 14:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct, but still I need a name for this special type of induction. One swan taken from ten white and no non-white swans gives 1±0 white and 0±0 non-white swans. This deduction has logical certainty.

   1 deduc 10 0
1 0
0 0

Ten swans taken from ninety white and ten non-white swans gives 9.0±0.9 white and 1.0±0.9 non-white swans. This deduction has a statistical uncertainty.

   10 deduc 90 10
       9        1
0.904534 0.904534

Ten white and no non-white swans taken from a population of one thousand swans indicate that there are 918±76 white and 82±76 non-white swans in the population.

   10 0 induc 1000
  917.5    82.5
76.3475 76.3475

Ten white and no non-white swans observed indicate that among the next ten swans you will see 9.2±1.1 white and 0.8±1.1 non-white swans.

   10 0 xduc 10
9.16667 0.833333
1.13699  1.13699

What should program xduc really be called? Bo Jacoby (talk) 23:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC).

I may be incorrect, but this sounds like predictive inference. If there is a significant difference between inference and logical reasoning, that may be incorrect. Perhaps the program could be called Preduc? Sazea (talk) 21:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Swanduction? Jerk182 (talk) 22:46, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I am grateful for your suggestions. I am now inclined to call the program 'predic' because prediction is exactly what it makes. Sometimes hard problems have trivial solutions. The word 'preduction' is a neologism, according to Google Translate. Further suggestions are still welcome. Bo Jacoby (talk) 08:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC).

very strange complete misspelling

I'm not sure if this is a language or a psychology question! When typing a google search query quickly I got the "suggested spelling message "do you mean paradigm shift?". On looking at what I typed I saw that I had somehow typed "padigram". What is more "padigram" gets over 6,000 hits. Why would I, and so many other people, get a word so completely wrong? -- Q Chris (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The QWERTY keyboard may be to blame. Roger (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe."[4][5][6] Also padigram seems a reasonable English word, by analogy with lots of words ending "-igram", and add the rareness of the "-gm" ending in English, and you have a mis-reading that appears plausible and isn't too noticeable. If you've only seen a word rarely and don't exactly remember it, it's natural to fit together the letters in what seems the most plausible order. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The first part of your response has been disproven. It only works with easy words and under certain circumstances, which Snopes seems to acknowledge. It's also obvious from the fact that I can't make any sense of "padigram". 92.80.10.126 (talk) 14:37, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

A telegram from Ireland? Tonywalton ^Talk 22:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

If you click the 10th page in the Google results then it reports there are only 76 results. Many of the rest may be different url's with the same content, or just Google counts being odd. The latter is quite normal and they do say "About" in their counts. For performance reasons they make some guesses. Many of the 76 are also copies, for example of "Chiropractors Expect A Padigram Shift" from http://www.sooperarticles.com/health-fitness-articles/back-pain-articles/chiropractors-expect-padigram-shift-117422.html. There are also non-errors like "Padi, Gram", and possible non-errors like the username Padigram. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I notice that your misspelling can be understood as a single transposition of ra and dig. It could be that your muscle-memory program for typing paradigm consists of subprograms "type pa, type ra, type dig, type m" and your timing got muddled. —Tamfang (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant! μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

This seems likely. I have been looking at a number of typos I make and they are not just simple transpositions of adjacent characters, for example I wrote "spam" as "smap". -- Q Chris (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

See metathesis. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

There are a few words it always takes me at least 2 goes to get right, such as "niece" and "weird". I'm pretty much OK with most -ei- and -ie- words because I had the "I before E except after C" rule and its exceptions drummed into me. But despite having 4,839 times gone through the process of typing "neice", thinking it didn't look quite right, trying "niece", still thinking it didn't look quite right, checking the dictionary, and discovering for the 4,839th time that "niece" is correct, I still start out with "neice" every single time. I just don't seem to be able to help it. And weird - there are only 4 common words that start out wie- (wield, Wiener) or wei- (weir, weird), so how hard can it be to remember which are in each camp? Too hard for me, apparently, Lucky I don't have a weird niece. And "interpret" - my first attempt is always "intepret", then I have to correct it because I actually know the correct spelling. So why do I always start out wrong? It's got me beat. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe remember that "niece" and "piece" have the same orthography. I can't think of anything to work for "weird", though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

My bugbear is "veicle". Or rather "vehicle". I find watching Judge Judy helps with my spelling there, though, as the 1% of complainants who don't have a "trerk" outside their mobile home will have a "vee-hickle". "Niece" looks wrong whichever way I spell it, as does "liaison", and I'd spelt "opprobrium" as "opprobium" all my life until someone pointed it out. As for "Wiener" that's easy. Just remember that in German you pronounce the second letter in an "ei" or "ie" combination. So "Wiener", "weener", "Bier", "beer" but "Wein" "wine"" or "frei", "fry" (meaning "free", so "Freies Bier" is "Fryes Beer", always a good thing). Tonywalton ^Talk 22:59, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

How odd it is that only "hicks" say it "ve-hicle". The "Wiener" rule, at least as said in English, works for "niece" and "piece" also. Although I think "Wiener" (meaning "of Vienna") would be more like "vee-enner" in German, and "bier" more like "bee-er". The "Wein" rule also works for "mein" (mine), "deine" (thine), etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I never get wield, Wiener or weir wrong; and even though I've never studied German formally, I know the German spelling rule, so I don't confuse Lied (song) with Leid (sorrow), or Lieb (love) with Leib (life). It's only "weird" that trips me up. I must remember to start out with weir and just add a d. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Wiener is "VEEner" and Bier is "beer", approximately. No extra syllables there. 92.80.52.54 (talk) 08:09, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I almost always type "there" for "their" and "they're", and usually think "forment", "olnly" and "uninted" for "foment", "only," and "united". (But never spell them that way.) At least I don't say "aks", "warsh", "pixture" or "nucular" like one of my exes until. Mr. Weir was my first boss, so I don't get that wrong. And wierd simply looks weird, although it sounds write. But I have recently put on "heirs" instead of "airs". Anglice scribere is such fun. μηδείς (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if this will help with spelling, but the origin of "weird" is kind of interesting:[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

See for instance this or this (para 11). Or this. Tonywalton ^Talk 18:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't think I'll be "dreeing my weird" in polite company, but thanks anyway. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

June 21

Faroese lyric translation?

Is there anyone here who knows Faroese? If so, could you translate these lines from the Týr song Lord of Lies, which is about Loki from Norse mythology. I'm aware of its general thrust: about the earth shaking and Loki breaking his bonds, but I'd very grateful for a native translation.

Skelvur jørðin øll og rapa bjørg og fjøll
Brýtur hav um lond og slitena so øll bond

Thanks in advance. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:32, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

You can figure most of it out using google translate and trying Icelandic and Danish:

from Icelandic gives:

Skelvur rapa all the earth and rocks and mountains

Breaks hav countries and so slitena All bond

From Danish gives:

Skelvur jørðin øll and rapa Bjorg and fjøll

Brýtur ocean um Lond and slitena sow øll peasant

Which implies to me a rough translation:

Skelvur [breaks/ravishes?] all the earth and rocks and mountains

Breaks the sea [around/and?] the land and so frees all peasants

μηδείς (talk) 03:05, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable translation with what I can glean from my knowledge of Swedish (i.e. not much). However, in the case of Týr lyrics, it looks like you'll get a much better answer by asking at the Týr forum language board. I didn't actually find a translation for the line you asked about, but there seem to be plenty of helpful native Faroese speakers there who can answer you. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 06:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike. I had a look there before asking here, but the problem is that there seems to be an unwritten site policy of "If you want lyrics translations, buy the album and you'll find them on the sleeve". I found a short and not entirely conclusive discussion of "Skelvur jørðin øll". Gordonofcartoon (talk) 10:55, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I know Danish but not Faroese. I read the lines like this. Skelvur (Shake) jørðin øll (all earth) og (and) rapa (crush) bjørg (mountain) og (and) fjøll (hill). Brýtur (Break) hav (sea) um (onto) lond (land) og (and) slitena (tear apart) so (also) øll (all) bond (ties). Bo Jacoby (talk) 08:41, 21 June 2012 (UTC).

That's my reading of it too, from knowing a moderate amount of Swedish and German, and having some passing familiarity with Danish, Icelandic, and Norse-influenced varieties of English. I'd versify it something like this:

He shakes all the earth and crushes peak and fell;

Breaks the sea round the land and sunders every bond.

(I can't reproduce the rhyme-scheme of the original without significantly more time and coffee.) AlexTiefling (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Ask User:EileenSanda. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

"The court requested the two sides to attempt to settle the matter."

"The court requested the two sides to attempt to settle the matter."

I'm not asking if there's a more elegant way to say this (there is). I'm asking: is the above grammatically correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.218.9.50 (talk) 01:52, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Don't see any big problem with it... AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

"I request you to do something" sounds quite odd. One requests things in the accusative case. One requests that people, in the nominative case, do things. It should be a noun in the nominative wth the subjunctive verb, not an accusative noun with the infinitive: "The court requested that the two sides attempt to settle the matter." I'd definitely mark it wrong in a prescriptive setting. I understand Britons don't get the subjunctive, though, so they might judge differently. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

How is this different from I asked John to close the door? You can of course say I asked that John close the door, but there's nothing wrong with the former form (and it's certainly more usual in anything but the very highest registers). --Trovatore (talk) 02:23, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

PS, "I asked John to close the door" means you expected he heard you. "I asked that John close the door" means you made a general request, perhaps to a committee, that he be the door closer. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Request and ask are not the same in the way they govern objects. You can request a book. It's not the same as asking a book. They govern different cases. μηδείς (talk) 02:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Although you can {request|ask} a favor. —Tamfang (talk) 02:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

It's faux-elegant. For reasons already stated, The court asked would be better grammar. —Tamfang (talk) 02:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your excellent answers.76.218.9.50 (talk) 02:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

And μηδείς ... I'm American, so your objection applies. Thanks again.76.218.9.50 (talk) 02:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Hehe. I have to assume that educated Britons can at least understand us Americans when we use the subjunctive, if not produce it themselves, in the same way that we educated Americans can appreciate Shakespeare, if not improvise Elizabethan English. μηδείς (talk) 03:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Were I to tell you that some of us in the UK still use the subjunctive, your assumption would be confirmed. Dbfirs 07:11, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

God bless you Sir, or Madam. μηδείς (talk) 22:05, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

There really isn't one unified "subjunctive mood" in modern English, but rather various different surviving fragments and relics of the old subjunctive, each of which is now a somewhat separate construction. The particular "subjunctive" construction which is more common in the U.S. than in the U.K. is the lack of "-s" ending in 3rd person present-tense forms (and invariant present-tense finite "be" in all persons and in numbers) in "I demand that he stop breaking the law" or "I insist that he be put in prison" etc. (as opposed to "I heard that he has stopped breaking the law" or "I know that he is in prison" etc.). Other surviving subjunctive constructions are roughly as common in the U.K. as in the U.S., as far as I know... AnonMoos (talk) 20:42, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Is your point, if I understand it correctly, to point out that the difference between the subjunctive and the indicative is not marked in every person and tense? μηδείς (talk) 22:01, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

PS, here's a particularly painful unuse of the subjunctive to American ears: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#TV_with_a_particular_type_of_EPG μηδείς (talk) 22:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

There's another frequently seen example of misuse of the subjunctive: that of using it in both parts of an "if ..., (then) ..." construction, when it should apply only in the latter part.

Example: "If you would have told me he was already here, I wouldn't have wasted time calling him". The first part ought to be "If you had told me he was already here...".

Americanites are no slouches when it comes to this, but I'm sure they're not the only ones. Australians are prone to saying "If you had have told me ....". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:25, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

If you would have is a bit different from if you had. If you had is, in and of itself, a neutral counterfactual. If you would have is generally a reproach. Think of would as the past tense of will, and will in the sense of wish/choose to. --Trovatore (talk) 23:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Jack is correct. The conditional should be used after the subjunctive, which is the counterfactual condition that conditions the conditional. It is often used twice in a row by people who have a feeling they shouldn't be using the present indicative, but aren't quite so used to the mental exercise. Kind of like using the high beams just because it is after dark. Trovatore has given a technically possible rationalization, since would could be taken as the subjunctive of will if it is used as a full verb, meaning to wish, not an auxiliary. But that's giving far too much credit. The supposed indicative "if you will have told me" is not something I have ever heard. μηδείς (talk) 00:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Further, "If you would have" is not universally recognised as a proper formulation. In many places it's considered a prescriptive error. Not all places, obviously. Reproach can be achieved by the use of the appropriate voice tone when speaking, or using "only" in writing: "If only you'd told me was here ...", or both. "Only" wouldn't fit if "would" were part of the equation ("If only you would've told me he was here ..." - nah). -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:08, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Similar to the pattern Jack mentions: "I would have liked to have seen that." —Tamfang (talk) 00:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Related is "I would have thought that XYZ would have been the case", when what they actually mean is "I think that XYZ is/was the case". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 18:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

When I say "I would have thought", there's an implied "until I got this new info". —Tamfang (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Medeis -- my point is exactly what I said previously: There are a number of modern relics of the old historical subjunctive (e.g. "so be it", "if I were", "if he were" etc.) which are probably used more or less similarly in the U.S. and U.K., but one particular relic of the historical subjunctive (as explained previously) is more commonly used in the U.S. than in the U.K. There is no subjunctive in modern English in terms of a unified grammatical/morphological verb conjugation -- there are only scattered relics and remnants of the old historical subjunctive, and each such modern remnant is a somewhat different construction within the synchronic grammar of modern English. AnonMoos (talk) 23:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

That is like calling the third person singular a scattered relic of tense marking. Fine, if that's the terminology you want to use. And you can also say there are set phrases that use the subjunctive such as so be it. But there's nothing relict about the regular use of the present subjunctive in examples like "I insist he show up on time." That is simply regular use of the mood, not a relic. Nor can the other regular forms of the indicative simply be substituted for the reqular present subjunctive. One can say, "I insist you pay me immediately." But not, "I insist you are paying me immediately." μηδείς (talk) 00:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Each of the so-called "subjunctive" constructions in modern English covers only a rather small and semi-obscure corner of modern English grammar, and there's really nothing unifying them in terms of modern English itself. It's only our historical knowledge which enables us to know that "If I were" and "I insist that he come" have a common origin -- someone studying the modern language only, without access to historical knowledge, would not be able to connect the two constructions, since they have no particular similarity in terms of modern English. Furthermore, "If I were" is preserved in Britain much more than "I insist that he come", which is evidence that these are two rather separate and disconnected constructions in the modern language... AnonMoos (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

But since when has the ability to do internal reconstruction been a prerequisite for linguistic competence? There is nothing semi-obscure to the North-American speaker about the present subjunctive. It is entirely regular: use the infinitive form without "to". "I demand he see me immediately!" "I insist she not be late!" But never, *"I demand he is seeing me immediately!" nor *"I insist she isn't being late!" You are conflating loss of the distinction by certain speakers with "modern" English grammar. One might as well insist that if an American doesn't say "What's up bruva?" he's not speaking modern English but using a semi-obscure dialect. μηδείς (talk) 03:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct that the construction is perfectly productive in American English (and the use of the "infinitive"-appearing verb form there is mandatory for correct standard American English) -- though it's hardly the most commonly-used construction, and there are many ways to rephrase any sentence to avoid the construction. HOWEVER the connection between the "if I were" construction and the "I demand that he see me immediately" construction is historical only -- there's no way that anyone would group the two together without specific historical knowledge of non-modern English... AnonMoos (talk) 10:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

2012 LinkedIn hack#Response from LinkedIn (version of 03:31, 20 June 2012), in the current set of WP:DYK articles listed on the Main Page, contains the following statement.

• LinkedIn requested its users to immediately change their passwords.
  

—Wavelength (talk) 00:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Heh. Kind of like "She requested her vacation days to immediately schedule the surgery"? From whom did LinkedIn immediately request its users? μηδείς (talk) 00:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Name of Guinea-Bissau

What is the name of Guinea-Bissau in Guinea-Bissau Creole and in French? Please leave me a note on my talk page if you know. Thanks,  Liam987(talk) 16:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Guinée-Bissau or Guinée-Bissao in French. I can't be bothered to post this on your talk page. 92.80.52.54 (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

We don't do that, as a matter of policy and system architecture. Any questions asked here will be answered here. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

What a wonderful phrase is "system architecture" - I shall save that to impress my friends with ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'd be surprised if it's an unprecedented coinage, but I did just come up with it myself.

Whoa, we have Systems architecture and Systems architect. Nothing new under the sun. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:18, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

It's at least ten years since I read that RIBA were complaining vocally about how the IT world had hijacked the word "architect". --ColinFine (talk) 00:02, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe they should have put their complaint in writing. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful comments, does anyone know the answer to my question?  Liam987(talk) 15:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

You asked 2 questions, one of which was answered straight away. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

In Creole it might simply be the same as the name of the country in Portuguese, i.e. 'Guiné-Bissau', or simply 'Guiné' as the language (in Portuguese) is called 'crioulo da Guiné'. V85 (talk) 20:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

June 22

“I have refused 12 girls, 9 has refused me” In this phrase shouldn’t we use “9 have refused me”?

“I have refused 12 girls, 9 has refused me” In this phrase shouldn’t we use “9 have refused me” because in this context we are talking about 9 girls. What is the correct sentence according to grammar? Please answer me with reference if available. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.240.73.64 (talk) 02:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. When in doubt, fill in the words that have been omitted and go by that: "I have refused twelve girls and nine girls have refused me." Subject-verb agreement μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

What if the missing word were "the" as in "I have refused 12 girls, the nine has refused me", making "nine" a collective noun referring to a specific group (in US usage)? (just being facetious, of course) --William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 03:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Can you think of any parallel construction to that? Would you say, for example, "The 12 has found him not guilty"? I can't think of any obvious example like that. Perhaps the opposite, where Brits might say, "The BBC have interviewed him."

Of course House MD fans would understand, "I have slept with 12 girls but 13 has refused me."μηδείς (talk) 03:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

But in that case, I believe, '13' doesn't represent '13 girls', but rather 'girl no. 13'. So although the number is higher than 1, it represents a single individual. V85 (talk) 08:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

This entire line of discussion reminds me of seven women that were on my mind. Specifically the four that want to own me, two that want to stone me, and one says she's a friend of mine... --Jayron32 03:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Jayron! Take it easy! --Trovatore (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Hehe. μηδείς (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Moon mentioned by Iran space agency page in Persian

I am verifying this disputed claim that the Iranian Space Agency has a program for human space flight to the moon. The agency has this page in Persian which blogger Parviz Tarikhi linked to here paraphrasing part of Hamid Fazeli's speech as "based on the I. R. President’s order a human should be sent to space by 2021 and in this connection the studies and programs for sending human to space and Moon had been started.". My question for Persian readers is whether that is a reasonable loose translation of the seventh paragraph from ISA where Google translate appears to find the moon mentioned? I do not wish to rely on a blogger nor on Google translate, but I have zero knowledge of the language. The first paragraph also appears to mention the moon and is:

سرپرست سازمان فضايي ايران با اعلام آغاز مطالعات طراحي لباس فضانوردي و اعزام انسان به كره ماه از پرتاب فضانورد ايراني به ارتفاع زير 200 كيلومتر طي پنج سال اول اجراي پروژه اعزام انسان به فضا و مكانيابي احداث شهرك فضايي ايران خبر داد.

and the seventh paragraph is:

سرپرست سازمان فضايي ايران با اشاره به اين كه ماهواره ملي اميد سوار بر مركب سفير ايراني با حداقل آزمايشات زير سيستمي به فضا پرتاب شد تصريح كرد: در اين راستا با تلاش و كوشش پژوهشگران و دانشمندان فضايي و با عنايت الهي اين مسير را بسيار سريع طي كردهايم و مطالعات برنامههاي تدوين شده در خصوص اعزام انسان به فضا و كره ماه كه آغاز شده و پرتاب ماهوارهها به مدار ژئو در شوراي عالي فضايي كه هفته آينده برگزار ميشود مطرح ميشود.

I am not looking for an exact translation, only for a better idea what Hamid Fazeli was saying in relation to the moon. -84user (talk) 08:55, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Translation is correct. There is a mention of sending man to the Moon. Omidinist (talk) 03:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Translation does not say this. You are incorrect. The Scythian 11:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be helpful, Scythian, if you could provide us with a translation, to get us beyond "yes it does / no it does not". THanks. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Then what is this, the Scythian? (اعزام انسان به فضا و كره ماه) = (sending man to space and the Moon) Omidinist (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Quick question about peacock terms

I'm asking here rather than at WT:WTW for a quicker response. Anyway, for example, there's an article saying "Blah Blah is a popular comic book series written by John Doe". In this particular case, can using the world "popular" be considered a peacock term? Thanks. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I would say that it is a peacock term, but that in some cases the popularity of a thing is so widely known that it would not need justifying. But if there is any likelihood that somebody might contest (particularly if it is very popular in one country but little known elsewhere) it should be avoided unless it is referenced. --ColinFine (talk) 09:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

(EC) Yes. I remember a publication from many years back: every suicide or acciental death on which it published a story had a headline along the lines of "popular xxx dies". There are objective proxies for a measurement of popularity, such as sales/readership figures and longevity. Popular is acceptable if it is referenced to a reliable source. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

It's always poor style in an article lead. If the comic book wasn't popular, then we wouldn't have an article on it. As in "Charles Darwin was a notable scientist". True, sourceable, but not good article style. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

What is the argument in favor of using the word popular? "Blah Blah is a comic book series written by John Doe". What is wrong with the sentence without the word popular? Bus stop (talk) 13:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Not so: "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or popularity" (WP:N). --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Popular doesn't necessarily mean widely liked. It can mean 'of the people' (i.e., laymen) as opposed to critical, professional, academic or technical. As in, "I am not looking for a textbook, just a popular introduction to the subject." μηδείς (talk) 19:59, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

If it really is that popular, people will have bought many copies of it, so you might be able to say it's a best-selling comic. (With a source). That seems more appropriate for an article lead. V85 (talk) 20:55, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Things are generally far more likely to be well-selling than best-selling per se (and far more likely still to be poorly-selling than well-selling, but that's beside the point). Most authors can only dream of producing books that sell reasonably well, let alone become best-sellers. But we seem to have got this far in the evolution of the English language without such terms as "well-selling", "well-seller". Shame, really.-- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Shortest Words

I was thinking the other day about the longest words in the English language (now some new chemical compound, no doubt), and then the shortest ones (I, a, etc.). That got me thinking: are there any words in the English language, or created in some work of fiction, that are zero letters long? I am aware of Metamicrofiction, a story mentioned in a single pdf file that is no words or letter long, but am more interested in individual words. Thanks, Sazea (talk) 17:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Depends on how you define a "letter". This is probably not what you were looking for, but you could say that & is "zero letters long" as it only consists of one symbol and no letters. (Granted, originally it consisted of the two letters e & t, but I'd argue that nobody who doesn't have an extreme interest in scripts and their developments thinks of it that way any more.) V85 (talk) 17:59, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

As a side note, I think of & as e and t because that's how I write it. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 18:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

You could say the empty categories are zero letters long, as are deleted words like the relative pronoun in "The Man ___ I Love". Angr (talk) 18:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

! --- OtherDave (talk) 18:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Being curious, I read that page on empty categories - and came away completely bewildered. It is 100% jargon. Can anyone give an example of an empty category in a sentence? Would love to know what they are. 184.147.116.134 (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

They're difficult to explain without jargon, as they're a product of certain syntactic theories and not everyone believes in them. But some examples are the trace of "who" in the sentence "Who do you want ___ to win?" (the presence of the trace can be inferred from the fact that want to in that sentence cannot be contracted to wanna, as it can in "I want to win" where there is no trace). Another example is found in "It's easy ___ to understand" where the blank is the unexpressed subject of the verb understand.

I'm not sure how to represent it, but the glottal stop has to count here - not a letter as such but, to a Cockney, carries such a lot of meaning. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there a word that consists only of the glottal stop? V85 (talk) 20:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

No, that would be a cough. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I know people whose coughs are not mere words but whole novellas. They're cousins of those who make their "ah"s and "um"s an art form. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The glottal stop replaces words or phrases in certain dialects. For example, in South Yorkshire it replaces "the", and is usually represented by "t'" as in the phrase "Put t'wood in t'ole". If you listen to a native from South Yorkshire the t is not spoken as a t but as a stop before the following word. It's more commonly recognised in the Cockney dialect. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

... we had to lick t'road clean .... -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:12, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

If you mean are there words with no characters of any kind, that's a ridiculous question, because there could only be one, and it would be indistinguishable from no word at all. I'm going to assume that's not what you're asking. If you mean are there words that are spelled with symbols other than letters, I can think of a few. In comic strips intended for publication in newspapers, profanity is often represented with a string of punctuation marks such as #@%&*!. If a word, such as a name, is to be hidden from the reader, it may be represented by a string of dashes or asterisks. Sometimes people use one or more question marks or exclamation points to convey confusion or frustration, respectively. Finally, some comic strips represent frustrated grumbling with a small scribble in the speech balloon. None of these has a defined pronunciation, though.Jerk182 (talk) 23:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that's what I was asking. I was wondering if there was a zero length word used in some sort of creative fiction or the like. It could possibly be indicated by a double space in a line, or even not being writable in the first place. That all said, the responses here have been rather interesting and informative, as well as thought provoking (for me at least). I suppose in addition to the examples above, computer programming deals with the idea of zero length character strings all the time (which do not equate with words, but are similar). Another thought: would the !? neologism on its own be considered as a sentence with no words, or would the punctuation have a separate definition? I'm guessing it isn't a zero length word in this case. Thanks again, Sazea (talk) 04:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Fnord? Adam Bishop (talk) 06:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Beep (sound). Bo Jacoby (talk) 08:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC).

I believe the neologism you referred to is the interrobang. I think that could be a stand-in for a word as well as any pronunciation mark. If you want an example of an unpronounceable symbol, there's always Prince_(musician) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerk182 (talk • contribs) 02:34, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

By spelling, a, I, and O (and e and even u if they are used as the name of a vowel or a shape) are the shortest words in English. Phonetically, however, in their citation forms, they are the same length as ew, ow, oh, and oy, etc., and they are longer than words with short vowels ending in voiceless stops such as at, up, and ick. μηδείς (talk) 03:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The musical notes A through G, and even extending to H in Germany/Austria, are never spelled out. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 05:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has mentioned Zero-marking in English. Without using jargon: there are things you want to say in English that require you not to use a word. A foreign learner may well insert a word, because, in mentally translating from their language, the concept seems to require one. Think of the difference between "I like books" and "I like the books". The absence of the word "the" is mandatory in the first sentence in order to convey the intended meaning, of the general liking of books in the abstract sense. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Denis Leary (or some other standup) told of a snobby restaurant called [grunt], spelled "nothing, with a circumflex." —Tamfang (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yiddish

I saw a documentary on Hasidic Judaism (ultra-orthodox Judaism) recently. One of the things that were discussed in that documentary was access to the Internet and a group of Hasidic Jews attempting to create a 'kosher Internet' (i.e. an Internet that would comply with the rules of ultra-orthodox Judaism). This was presented as a parallel to other modern gadgets which had 'kosher' alternatives, such as mobile phones, and kosher computers. (The one presented in the documentary didn't have access to the Internet, it only allowed the user to receive e-mail, and it couldn't play media files.)

In one of the scenes, one of the people working on creating the 'kosher Internet' said that the ultra-orthodox are already online, and opened an online forum where users were discussing matters pertaining to Judaism, in Yiddish. Apparently, the fact that they were using Yiddish was a clear marker to the people in the office, that whoever was writing and discussing these things were ulta-orthodox. Is Yiddish really a marker of ultra-orthodox identity? Does speaking Yiddish mark one as being an ultra-orthodox Jew to others and do the ultra-orthodox themselves emphasise speaking Yiddish instead of, say, Hebrew? V85 (talk) 18:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

According to Yiddish language#Religious communities, "The major exception to the decline of spoken Yiddish can be found in Haredi communities all over the world. In some of the more closely knit such communities Yiddish is spoken as a home and schooling language, especially in Hasidic, Litvish or Yeshivish communities..." so it wouldn't surprise me at all if using Yiddish online could be taken as a sign of being Haredi or Hasidic. Not with 100% certainty of course, but probably far, far greater than chance. (Go to Yiddish Wikipedia sometime and click on "recent changes" on a weekday and again on a Saturday to see how rarely Yiddish speakers are online on Shabbes!) Angr (talk) 18:21, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Traditionally some religious Jews were opposed to "defiling the holy language" by using Hebrew in non-religious contexts, which is part of the reason why many "ultra-orthodox" (not only Hasidic) continue to use Yiddish in daily life in Israel. In general, there was not much left of Yiddish-speaking communities in Europe after WW2, while use of Yiddish has diminished in non-European countries due to assimilation of immigrants and their descendants, so those under 50 who speak Yiddish are likely to belong to groups which are determined to keep to Yiddish, i.e. predominantly religious groups... AnonMoos (talk) 05:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Although see this British newspaper article "Yiddish is no joke'" about renewed interest in Yiddish in the wider Jewish community; "Beyond the very religious, Yiddish has been undergoing a marked revival, especially among young people, for more than 20 years... The main driver of this revival is the fact that, as Jewish populations become more diverse and Jewish identity less connected to religion and more to ethnicity, Jews are increasingly looking for alternative ways to be Jewish." Alansplodge (talk) 17:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

June 23

Is 'denigrate' a racist word?

You are making a 'nigger' out of something or someone, and implicitly that's considered a bad thing. However, I don't see that the word is avoided by the mainstream press. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Is that a serious question? It's not "nigger" it's simply "black". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

That is nonsensical and false. Neither "denigrate" nor "niggardly" (nor "picnic", to mention another urban legend in passing) has anything whatsoever to do with the word "nigger"! --Orange Mike | Talk 14:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, denigrate does contain the stem of a Latin word meaning "black", and so has a remote etymological relationship. But you might as well ask whether the names of the countries "Niger" and "Nigeria" are racist! By the way, the Latin word for "black" in an emotionally negative sense was ater more often than niger... AnonMoos (talk) 14:21, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

According to the OED, denigrate is derived from the "participial stem of Latin dēnigrāre to blacken", and means, among other things, "To blacken, sully, or stain (character or reputation); to blacken the reputation of (a person, etc.); to defame". Thus, the word does not refer to black people at all, but to the idea of "blackening" (soiling or dirtying) someone's reputation. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It's clear that 'denigrate' was originally not meant to be, uhh, denigrating to black people. However, things change, and words acquire new meanings and new associations are established. 'Negro' was in the past not, well, sorry for the repetition, denigrating, but it is now and I am seriously asking if that's the case of "denigrate." OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it. I've never heard it being considered a racist term. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Neither have I.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that some terms may be made racist and unacceptable over time by virtue of being appropriated by racists. i.e. if people regularly started using the word 'niggard(ly)', for example around black people with the obvious connotation that 'I'm only saying this because it sounds like another well-known n-word, but will feign ignorance and fall back on the precise dictionary definition if offence is caused', then I'd imagine that before too long, it would be considered unacceptable to use that word in polite conversation. Or if a particular false etymology became well-known and unquestioningly accepted by the masses, I guess. Though I don't think that the word 'picnic' has ever seriously been considered offensive. Or 'crowbar', for that matter. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It comes down to the root source of "black" meaning bad, and conversely, "white" meaning good. (Think of white hats and black hats in cowboy movies.) I don't believe this association, at it's root, is racist. It goes back to us being diurnal, so being adapted to daylight and fearing the dark, where we can't see what's going on. If we were nocturnal, on the other hand, the dark might be comforting, and daylight might make us feel nervous and exposed. The evidence that it's not a racial thing is that many cultures had the concept of black as bad before they ever encountered people of varying races. StuRat (talk) 18:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The ancient Romans probably barely even knew that black people might exist (according to unverifiable travelers' stories) when they started memorializing the anniversary of the Battle of the Allia as dies ater or "black day", the most mournful day of the Roman calendar (kind of the Roman Tisha B'Av -- though there's nothing about this on our Battle of the Allia article, and only a little bit on the Roman festivals article...). -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:46, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

This concern is on a par with being concerned that "sinister" is an insult to left handed people. HiLo48 (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

"Sinister" is an insult to left-handed people. Looie496 (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Only if left-handed people are directly accused of being sinister simply because of their left-handedness. But to use the word in some other context (e.g. "John Carradine had a reputation for playing sinister roles") is not an insult to anyone. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

For reference: Controversies about the word "niggardly". BrainyBabe (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Names of Honduras

What are the names of Honduras in Miskito and Garifuna?  Liam987(talk) 15:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

In Miskito its the same, Honduras, but in Garifuna its Indura. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.85.213 (talk) 23:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

June 24

English word for a trip...

...for the purpose of visiting relatives in your country of origin, after already settling down in another country? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.1.40 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe a return visit? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 05:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really able to answer your question, but a term of reference that was in use by Americans for country of origin was "the old country". The sorts of "old countries" commonly referenced by this term of reference were I think generally in the vicinity of Europe. This is all anecdotal so please take with grain of salt. Bus stop (talk) 05:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I hear "go back home" sometimes. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Which, from that, homecoming would work. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

"Pilgrimage" comes to mind. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no specific word. @OP: Do you speak a language that has a specific word for that occasion? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:33, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

June 25

Franconian dialect of bavarian german

Hello, I have been looking for about 64 years for the answer to this . Background first. In 1948 I used the Franconian word for entschuldigen which means excuse. My uncle said to never use that word again and I promtly forgot. The next time I heard it was in 1989 in Kulmbach at a Rotary club meeting, and forgot it again! Can someone please help me find that word? Please? Even tne people around Kulmbach, Triebenreuth, Baiersbach, and Marktleugast do not know. Bob W — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31delux (talk • contribs) 13:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I can't help you, but I strongly believe your chances of getting that question answered would be higher at the German Wikipedia's Auskunft. Its regulars have proven some expertise in (or is it on?) exactly this area repeatedly in the past. --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 21:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Only a guess: Hobberla. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 22:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The psychic sidekick

My son keeps mixing up psychic and sidekick. Any suggestions on how I can help him distinguish the two words (not their meanings, just the words). Thanks. -- JeffreyBillings (talk) 15:28, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, it came from The Psychic Sidekicks! (2001) Pokémon episode #156. -- JeffreyBillings (talk) 15:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Have him look at a picture of, say, Batman and Robin. Where is the sidekick standing? Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 15:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec)It depends how old your son is and whether he likes to find out about words, likes jokes, puns and wordplay (most children do). If so, I have some ideas and other people here will have more. You could tell him that a side kick is someone who is by your side and can kick people. You could make up stories and poems together about Puh-sychics, siccicks, sideykickies and kicksides. See if he wants to learn to spell these two words and some other really tricky spellings. But if he's not interested in any of that you can just leave it and he will work it out one day. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:49, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

He should be familiar with the words "side" and "kick", so "sidekick" is no problem. "Psychic" is a bit harder. He might know the words "psych", as in "to psych out your opponent", or "psycho", along with "ick", so you can build off his knowledge of those words. I'm guessing he's too young to read, because the difference in spellings make it obvious which is which. StuRat (talk) 16:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be a great idea, StuRat! If only it actually applied in practice. Then we could, for example, tell the difference between "it's" when used as an abbreviation and "it's" when used as a personal pronoun. But as it is, we have to be guided by the context. I wonder why nobody has ever thought of spelling these words differently, to "make it obvious which is which". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

As Judith points out, it depends on how old your son is. The way to help him distinguish these words will be quite different if he's 3 than if he's 8, which again will be different than if he's 17. Angr (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

And, of course, his age would also determine how serious this mix-up if. For a three-year old, I'd guess the true meanings would become more apparent with time and use. As Judtih says: Just leave it and he will work it out by himself. V85 (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Note that if he confuses lots of similar words, especially as he gets older, this could be caused by a hearing loss, so he should have his ears checked out by a doctor. StuRat (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies! You've given me some good ideas. -- JeffreyBillings (talk) 02:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. Can we mark this Q resolved ? StuRat (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Translation and Meaning of Beija

I have named my Beauty Salon "Beija Rouge". I would like to know the meaning of "Beija" translated in English. As I understand it "Beija" is a French word meaning "Kiss". Would "Beija Rouge" translate to "Red Kisses" or "Kisses of Red"? Am I correct on this assumption? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.214.135 (talk) 18:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it's a Portuguese word meaning "kisses"--but not as the plural of the noun "kiss", rather as the 3rd person singular of the verb "to kiss" (as in "John kisses Mary every morning before he goes to work"). So "Beija Rouge" doesn't really make a lot of sense, as it combines a Portuguese verb form with a French adjective. If you want your salon to have a name that means "red kisses" in French, you'll have to change the name to "Baises Rouges". Angr (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

"Baisers Rouges", surely, if you're meaning kisses (nouns) that are red? Alternatively, "Baiser Rouge" if you only want one of them, or the other way round for dramatic emphasis. There has been a film called Rouge Baiser and there already exists a brand of makeup by that name, which could cause problems. Karenjc 19:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You're right, Baisers Rouges. I made either a typo or a thinko. In order to avoid conflict with the brand of makeup, the OP could go for all-Portuguese name and call her salon Beijos Vermelhos instead. Angr (talk) 20:23, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Why did you name your salon before you know what the name means ? Could be risky. StuRat (talk) 19:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Personally I do not like the look of Baisers rouges, and besides baiser (as a verb) is also a not-so-polite word for making love. I would prefer a more casual, borderline argotic word such as Bisous rouges or Bécots rouges — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.97.171.80 (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Why not call it "The Rouge Kiss" ? That will be understandable by all English speakers (since "rouge" has been borrowed from French into English) and avoid you having to explain the name a dozen times every day, for life. Also, as a business owner, you might be concerned that the inability of people to recall, spell, and look up foreign words might reduce return business.

Or, since you're not averse to mixing languages, how about something like "Le Rouge Kiss" (or "Kiss Le Rouge", if you want to be a bit naughty) ? StuRat (talk) 23:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Ugh le ugh. —Tamfang (talk) 21:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I prefer Czerwene Baczi (pronounced "cherWENeh BAHchee"). μηδείς (talk) 17:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Care to give us the language ? StuRat (talk) 17:39, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

"Red kisses" in my family's dialect of Rusyn, aka Ruthenian, which is about equidistant between standard Slovak and Ukrainian. I chose to use the quasi-Polish orthography I have seen in old family documents, although it is nowadays usually written using Cyrillic or Slovak when it is still written. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting that Baczi is pronounced just like the Italian word for kisses, baci. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 18:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I used to tell my grandmother she was speaking perfect Italian when she would say Daj mi baczi. μηδείς (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

June 26

Debby

I note that the storm currently being mean to Florida and surrounding areas is called Debby. Each time I look at that name it just seems wrong. The similar girl's name in Australia is always spelt Debbie. (At least that's my impression.) I believe it's the same in the UK. Is Debby really the common spelling of that name in the US? Does Debbie occur at all? HiLo48 (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Both ways here in the US. StuRat (talk) 05:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Having made that post I thought of Debbie Reynolds, so of course you're right. HiLo48 (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

As compared with Debby Boone, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Calling a tropical storm Debby instead of Deborah is just wrong. Would you call a storm Barbie instead of Barbara, or Cindy instead of Cynthia?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, because there are only a limitted amount of short common names beginning with any certain letter. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I just went hunting. You can blame it on the World Meteorological Organization. HiLo48 (talk) 07:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Hurricane Cindy. Karenjc 08:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

There have been a number of hurricanes named either Debbie or Debby depending on the whim of the folks building the lists. Type "hurricane debb" in the searh box and they should show up. Meanwhile, there have also been several Hurrican Debras. No Deborahs, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's revisit the issue of spelling variants when we get Tropical Storm Boadicea. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Pronunciations on TV and radio could be interesting too. HiLo48 (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm waiting for Niamh or Siobhan. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 18:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

George Bouhe

How is the surname of Lee Harvey Oswald's friend George Bouhe pronounced? He's said to be Russian, but Bouhe doesn't look like a Russian name to me. I can't even imagine how it would be spelled in Cyrillic. Does anyone know at least the anglicized pronunciation? Pais (talk) 11:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The Russian spelling of his name was apparently Бухе [8] which would be pronounced BOO-kheh. However as a businessman in Dallas he must have used a different pronunciation.--Cam (talk) 12:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Chinese - Super Hercules

[9] "中国北车为神华集团特制火车头“超级大力士”可促运能提升2倍" (used in China_Railways_HXD2#Related_orders)

Is there an appropriate chinese translation of “超级大力士” .. ? Google translate throws out "super hercules" but as far as I know translating as "hercules" would be a conceit (and not - 'encyclopedic'). Thanks.Oranjblud (talk) 11:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's a conceit. There are many vehicles called Hercules. See Hercules (disambiguation)#Vehicles. Oda Mari (talk) 17:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

They're not chinese though ? - is Hercules the only and correct translation?

If I do https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=大力士&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&biw it makes me wonder if "strong man" or "iron man" is better ??Oranjblud (talk) 19:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

side tracked

Good evening;

I am a french contributor, and I don't understand the meaning of "side tracked" in the following sentence : In February 1944 there was criticism in Parliament of the way that Blamey had "side tracked" various generals;. Can you explain, please. Thank you. Dhatier (talk) 23:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Railway analogy: side track is not the main line ... Blamey has managed to get the generals to deviate from whatever was their plan. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:40, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It seems to be a use of definition 3 of the verb on this Wiktionary page. It was felt by some that Blamey had relegated certian generals to the sidelines, that he had kept them from performing effective duties. Deor (talk) 23:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. He removed them from command and assigned them to less important duties. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:46, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

For context and for those who know him not, we're talking about Thomas Blamey. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:47, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Without any further context it is a bit ambiguous to me. It could mean either "Blamey distracted various generals (so he could do something sneaky while they were otherwise occupied)" or "Blamey bypassed or circumvented various generals (i.e. continued on a course of action without consulting or getting consensus from the generals)". Either way, it seems a little too informal for use in (for example) a WP article.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 23:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

See my link for context. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. We use the same railway analogy in french : mettre sur une voie de garage. Dhatier (talk) 00:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)