Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 113

Archive 110

Archive 111

Archive 112

Archive 113

Archive 114

Archive 115

→

Archive 120

Commander Coookson of HMS Peterel

Around 1877 Commander Coookson brought some turtles from the Galápagos Islands to London on the Royal Navy ship HMS Peterel(dab page). I'd be interested in finding out Commander Cookson's full name and wikilinking an article on him if possible. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 10:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

To answer my own question. It's William Edgar De Crackenthorpe Cookson R.N.(http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowBiog.php?id=1491). Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 11:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Page naming conventions: Nuclear Weapons

I found it very strange that we have the following naming convention for pages relating to states and their (actual or alleged) nuclear weapons programmes:

• Nuclear weapons and the United States

• Nuclear weapons and the United Kingdom

• Force de Frappe - (Redirected from Nuclear weapons of France)

• Nuclear weapons and Israel

• Russia and weapons of mass destruction

• People's Republic of China and weapons of mass destruction

• North Korea and weapons of mass destruction

• Iran and weapons of mass destruction

• Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction

• India and weapons of mass destruction

• South Africa and weapons of mass destruction

So when we feel allied towards the state, they are called "Nuclear Weapons" and when not, they are referred to as "Weapons of mass destruction" based on Wiki Search "Nuclear weapons [country name]" - rather odd. Farawayman (talk) 16:59, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

That is vexing. However, the language we use should reflect what sources say, and we suffer from FUTON bias with added anglocentrism - the sources in these articles will use different terms to describe (say) American nuclear development versus Iranian nuclear development. Also, "weapons of mass destruction" covers more than just nuclear stuff - it's a bigger umbrella. With some of those countries it may be impractical to split up the content into viable separate articles on CBRN, but where there's more content it's practical (ie. we have Soviet biological weapons program). bobrayner (talk) 17:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Though... NBC weapons are "weapons of mass destruction", so it shouldn't solely be nukes... what of chemical and biological agents? 70.49.127.65 (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

This is splitting of subject in some case - the UK has Nuclear weapons and the United Kingdom and Chemical weapons and the United Kingdom with a covering United Kingdom and weapons of mass destruction to summarize both and include biological weapons. GraemeLeggett (talk) 06:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Military results

I have a question about the results in the infoboxes. For many battles, campaigns or offensives there probably are no reliable sources that directly state the result. So can sources be used indirectly for this? Like if a source states the strategic goals of an offensive for one side and then says that they were accomplished, is that enough to set the result to strategic victory for that side? -YMB29 (talk) 20:54, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

That sounds to me like it would pass. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 21:43, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I've done that in my own articles, see Battle of Osan. Oftentimes strategic and tactical goals and outcomes are different for two sides in a battle. —Ed!^(talk) 22:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thank you both for the answers. -YMB29 (talk) 22:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I just want to make sure. Do these passages[1] from reliable sources support that the offensive was a strategic victory? -YMB29 (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

You are making slight omissions by forgetting to mention that Soviet forces were unable to accomplish the predefined goals of operation. As stated in several sources and also verified by original STAVKA orders. And also again you are mixing the result of the offensive with that of the war. - Wanderer602 (talk) 22:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

No, you are the one mixing things up. You are talking about tactical or operational goals, not strategic ones. This was pointed out to you many times, but you ignore it.

Anyway, I asked a specific question, and it was not addressed to you since I am looking for a third opinion. -YMB29 (talk) 23:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

If you want a non-biased answer that others can accept without complaints from the said third person you need to actually present the question in a non-biased way. Also once again for clarification, the article in question is about the operation, not about the war. - Wanderer602 (talk) 04:27, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what you are talking about. Like I told you before, the sources speak for themselves. Let others comment here. -YMB29 (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but you are representing sources you selected even with your knowledge of the several of opposing sources. It is called bias. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of any sources more reliable that contradict these ones. The question is about these sources. If you have sources that contradict them, you can bring them up later and we can compare which ones are more reliable. -YMB29 (talk) 05:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Ribbon bars identification | General William Slim

Dear all,

I'm currently identifying the ribbon badges on then General William Slim's uniform: Commons:File:TNA INF3-5 General William Slim 1939-1946.jpg. Unfortunately the article does not feature an exhaustive list of his awards and honours. Thanks a lot in advance for any helpful suggestions.

Please apply changes directly via the "Add note" on the Commons or answer on my talk page.

Regards, Peter Weis (talk) 16:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll respond here otherwise you'll have people going all over the place and duplicating the work. It's a bit of a difficult to be sure what the ribbons are because the artist has blurred some of them and the colours are a bit faded.

Top row: Order of the Bath, Order of the British Empire, Distinguished Service Order

Middle row: Military Cross, 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal

Bottom row: 1939-45 Star, Africa Star, (Cannot identify), (Cannot identify, but ought to be a Mention in Despatches)

The image shows him sometime before Jan 46 (going on the order of the first two ribbons and the lack of higher orders which he picked up later) and presumably some time just after the war had finished since he is shown wearing the 39-45 star. Without knowing the date it is not possible to say exactly what level of each order he held at the time. I've cheated slightly in that I have a book with a clear picture of his uniform ribbons on the cover, albeit at an earlier date hence difficulty identifying the later WWII medals. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much Wiki-Ed. I failed to identify the British War Medal and those blurry two at the bottom right. Maybe something like Honours of Winston Churchill#List of honours should be added to William Slim's article - yet without proper sources about the date of presentation this might be quite some work. Do you know how his appointment as Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire (GBE) in January 1946 would have effected the manner of representation on his uniform? Regards, Peter Weis (talk) 20:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If you have a look at his article you'll see a list of titles and post nominals near the bottom. The order of the post nominals shown there indicates the order of wear. So, for example, a GBE is higher than a KCB, so it would come first in 1946. But then in 1950 the KCB was made up to a GCB, and the Order of the Bath is senior to the Order of the British Empire, so the position would change again. Ignore the "KstJ" - that's irrelevant - but all the other letters correspond to the placement of the ribbons. The medals are trickier because they are not recorded in the title - you have to work out the pattern and the order and compare it with a chart. Fortunately Wikipedia has those charts so not too difficult. Obviously he would have got the Burma Star whenever it was issued, but I cannot tell from the image. A colour photo from later in his career should clarify what the fuzzy ones are.Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this explanation. As I've mentioned on the talk page of the image, its source seems to be this photography from the National Army Museum. As for colour images/paintings: see #1, #2 or #3. Although they are from different ages, they might feature a hint on the yet unidentified ribbon bars. Regards, Peter Weis (talk) 09:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Bottom row 3rd from left is definitely the Burma Star, fourth from left is indistinct and cannot reliably be identified from the painting. However, based on painting from 1952 and 1961 painting set in WW2, it is most likely the ribbon of the War Medal 1939-45, although it may be that of Chief Commander of the Legion of Merit which appears not to have been conferred until 1948. Notwithstanding, he still has not been awarded the Defence Medal which in theory should have been issued at the same time as the War Medal 1939-45 but as the 1961 painting shows, he clearly had both of these before he had received the Defence Medal - so the question becomes when did he get the War Medal 1939-45? AusTerrapin (talk) 11:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Having just checked Peter's suggestions, it all becomes clear - B&W Photo and #2 quite clearly show Slim wearing the MiD insignia on cloth of same colour of the uniform (at that point there was no campaign medal approved for it to be attached to, so it goes either directly on the uniform (if no other ribbons) or on a ribbon matched to the colour of the uniform (first time I have actually seen a photo/painting of this occurring but it is covered in various instructions relating to wear). This eliminates the Legion of Merit from the picture. The last ribbon is either the MiD worn on a ribbon the colour of the uniform (most likely given the absence of any red or blue in that section of the painting) or the MiD worn on the ribbon of the War Medal 1939-45. However given the painting appears to be based on B&W Photo and the last ribbon in that photo doesn't appear to contain any of the white that is present in the War Medal ribbon, it seems fairly certain that it would be the MiD worn on a khaki ribbon rather than on the War Medal 1939-45 ribbon. AusTerrapin (talk) 19:36, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the very detailed information. As written in his article, Slim was mentioned in dispatches twice in 1941. I didn't manage to find out, when the War Medal 1939-45 was awarded. A database of awarded medals or his biography could help to identify the exact date of presentation. Be encouraged to add any of Slim's honours to this list. Regards, Peter Weis (talk) 13:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Bed-making

I've just rescued a rather feeble stub which referred to military personnel having to make beds to bounce-a-coin tightness (and I remember a friend saying that her RAF officer trainee son at one point slept on his floor before inspections so as not to disturb his precisely-made bed!). Not exactly "military history", but I thought someone round here might be able to contribute sourced info about standards, techniques, etc in military life. I found a youtube video on "bedmaking in basic training" but nothing WP:RS. PamD 16:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I've added a couple of references, one of the covers-off on coin-dropping as aa test for adequate tightness. Still needs details for preparation techniques. I've have also added the project Banner and stub-tags; I notice that we don't seem to have a task force for military culture and thus this one slips through the cracks of our task forces as it is too generic to pick up under one of the national task forces. AusTerrapin (talk) 12:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move: Decapitalize the word "war" in non-proper noun titles

Concerning the following articles: Sino-Xiongnu War, Gojoseon–Han War, Goguryeo–Wei War, Goguryeo–Sui War, Goguryeo–Tang War, Silla–Tang War, Ming–Kotte War, Ming–Hồ War, Mongol–Jin War, Gaya–Silla War, Goguryeo–Yamato War, Goryeo–Khitan War.

The move request is at [2]. --Cold Season (talk) 11:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Article titles for military operations

Hi all, I'm repeating my question from Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) page where I got redirected here.

I've read WP:TITLE but could not find why military operations are titled [Operation Something] instead of [Something], e.g. [Operation Market Garden] instead of [Market Garden]. Is there a specific title rule in place or it's just a tradition? --Petar Petrov (talk) 18:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why that convention might exist, but I think the "Operation" looks like a helpful natural disambiguator. Otherwise we have the problem that there are thousands of operations named after completely different things which already have their own article and which already satisfy WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. If we renamed "Operation Market Garden" to "Market Garden", we'd have to find somewhere else to put the horticultural article already at that title; if we renamed "Operation Sledgehammer" to "Sledgehammer" then the article about the tool would have to move to some other unnatural name; and so on.

Think of it this way: We don't normally use middle names in the titles of BLP articles. But if several people have the same common name (ie. John Smith), then including a middle name in the title could be helpful. bobrayner (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

It is also what the sources call them. Not to mention, per the above, it provides context to what is being talked about. Outside the circle of those intrested, who would know Market Garden was a miltiary operation and not some kind of market or whatnot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.86.206 (talk) 19:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I also like the titles as they are now. But correct me if I'm wrong, according to WP:TITLE they should be "Barbarosa (operation)" instead of "Operation Barbarosa". The name is Barbarosa, otherwise it would be incorrect to call it "Plan Barbarosa". I'm asking why the military operation titles are exception from WP:TITLE. --Petar Petrov (talk) 19:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

In that example, the WP:COMMONNAME is "Operation Barbarossa". All the reliable sources refer to it as such in English, therefore it is at that title at the English Wikipedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

And none refer to it as "Plan Barbarossa"? What if some operation is referred to as "Operation X" and "Plan X"? --Petar Petrov (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The rider in Bushranger's comment is "in English." The proper translation might be Plan or Case, but normally it's rendered in this context as Operation. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

In English indeed. Translation is irrelevant as there are enough sources in English. I assume for "Plan ..." and "Operation ..." the most popular has to be chosen. Thanks for the answers to all. --Petar Petrov (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2012 (UTC)