Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 30

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 25

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Archive 28

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Game log readability

So I was browsing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Boston_Red_Sox_season and I noticed the show text next to each season of the game log is terribly hard to read (I literally spent a solid minute trying to figure out how to see the details). It isn't just that one either, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_Yankees_season is unreadable too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.85.199.242 (talk) 13:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

There was a discussion on the ice hockey project talk page about changing the header to have a uniform, more legible background colour, with a thick colour line beneath that would differentiate between teams. I think this is a good approach to balance legibility with team individuality. isaacl (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I wish there were a free, legit way to access The Sporting News' 100+ yrs of digital archives to help with article expansion.

I haven't looked for a way for about a year now, so if you have a source that legitimately provides these archives for free (or significantly cheaper!) would be most appreciated. This is less for me and more for everyone that contributes to WikiProject Baseball. I wish there were a way for us all to have free access, as references, while plentiful on google news search, don't even come close to the depth of coverage I found in one particular newspaper that used to be free online.

A few years ago, PaperOfRecord.com, the site that held over 100 years of newspapers of The Sporting News, stopped being a free service and started charging a fee. They want $13 per month or $71 per year. Since I have a fascination with 1950s and 60s baseball and also hated it when AFDs were presented on the grounds that the player had no significant coverage or that an assertion of notability from a player/manager in like the 1920s was 'fake' because they couldn't find a source when TSN archives proved otherwise, I had to get access to the archives. It was an incredibly vital source for my goal of expanding articles of baseball players from the 1950s and 1960s from being more than just small footnotes in history that simply recited how many years they played and what their triple crown stats were.

Because of my dedication to expanding articles of my interest, I joined SABR, the Society for American Baseball Research. One of their benefits is that PaperOfRecord gives every SABR member free access to The Sporting News archives. Since I'm still under 30 years old, membership is $45 per year. That saves almost 40% over just buying it straight from the website, and SABR includes a ton of other stuff to make it worth it for those serious about baseball research. Ages 30-64, unfortunately, raise the price to $65, making it just a $6 difference but still giving you all the benefits and resources at SABR's disposal. I am in no way spamming people or begging them to go out and join SABR since I know there's no way in hell most people here will blow that much cash just to have access to some old newspapers and expand articles on Wikipedia. I am only offering them a solution for that small chance that they desperately want access to the TSN archives as much as I did late last year. I have my reasons for needing this. I'm writing these articles of about 180 specific players for personal reasons mentioned on my userpage.

I still intend to remain with SABR even if there is a legitimate, free way to access The Sporting News online archives. I wish I could write articles at a faster rate than, like, one per year, but real life has been taxing lately, and it can be compounded with the fact that I always know literally nothing about the player before I write his article. I just want others to have more free resources so they can more easily expand articles on baseball players. Let's at least please try to get some Stubs up to C-Class articles, like this article I expanded of Milt Bolling a while back that I'm sure looks like a mess since I am absolutely terrible when it comes to prose, but it looks a hell of a lot better than it did before expansion.

For baseball article writers, especially of players of 50+ years ago, I have a few free sources listed that cover 1885-1920 (Baseball Magazine and Sporting Life (magazine) and 1942-2009 (Baseball Digest) at User:Vodello#Digitally Archived Magazines and Newspapers to expand baseball player articles that can help. If you have any more free reliable sources from old baseball/sports magazines and newspapers, please let me know. I only just recently found out about the LA84 Foundation's efforts to archive Baseball Magazine and Sporting Life. While they haven't been as useful to me as TSN was, I did find a writeup or two of players in the first decade of the 1900s that would've otherwise been pretty much impossible to find. Boston Beaneaters, Boston Doves, Brooklyn Superbas, or Brooklyn Bridegrooms fans might find this to be a great resource after all! Who knows?? Losing The Sporting News as a free resource for editors was a huge blow. I also wish there was free access to the New York Times archives. I think I have to purchase a newspaper subscription or some crap like that. I'm already in this for $45, so I'd rather just take my chances with whatever pops up for free on Google News, Google Books, and the TSN archives.

Anyway, I hope the resource list I have on my page helps at least one person that has a baseball article to expand or create. We's gots to gets more articles fixed up around heres. If my math doesn't suck too much today, only 6.1% of baseball articles excluding lists are rated C-Class or higher. Breaks my heart. I know it's easier to delete than it is to create (certainly leads to a lot more barnstars for some), but let's see if we can get that number up to 10% by year's end. No player deserves to be a stub for all eternity. Ah well, at least SABR has some cool stuff. Gonna suck when I turn 30 in 2014 though. Agent Vodello^{OK, Let's Party, Darling!} 17:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:HighBeam is a huge help, free to Wikipedians that been in the project for over one year an 1000 edits. Mostly covers post 1986 so it's good for players who played after those years. I been trying to get free access to Paper of Record in Wikipedia, but they seemed uninterested, but considering the success of the HighBeam project we could give them or SABR a shot. Secret ^account 14:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

2012 Major League Baseball season‎#Milestones

I could use a little help with this cruft section and some stubborn editors. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Stubborn? I have doing these edits for over three years and have never had any complaints in the previous years adding things until this year... I just want to know why the interest to limit "milestones", even though they are legit... --posty (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiData

For those that haven't heard, the WikiData project aims to create a knowledge base for various data. I think it'd be useful to have WikiProject Baseball consider using it in the future. Potential uses could be to contain records of each game played, which can then be transcluded automatically into the relevant season articles for each team; or batting, pitching, and fielding data for players, which can then be transcluded into player article infoboxes (or elsewhere). This could also be used to replicate or mirror Baseball Reference and Retrosheet data. This will be a long-term project, as WikiData is still in development. Thoughts? Mindmatrix 16:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

article suggestion

Might be worth having a List of Major League Baseball hitters with six hits in one game article (the name mirrors List of Major League Baseball hitters with four home runs in one game). The list is only about 5 times longer [1] so is pretty impressive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O18 (talk • contribs) 20:33, April 20, 2012‎

Since there is an MLB.com page for it, it might be worthy of its own article. We'd need to find more sources to back it up, though. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

In the article, List of Major League Baseball hit records, there is a section listing players with 7 hits in one game.Orsoni (talk) 04:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

There's no clear reason why it uses 7. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

7 is the magic number for hits in a game. It's only happened twice in a nine-inning game - once by Wilbert Robinson, 120 years ago; and once by Rennie Stennett, of all people, in a 1975 game I remember all too well... possibly the most humiliating defeat ever suffered by the Cubs.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

But I don't see how that makes seven the number. 700 home runs has only happened three times, yet we still care about the 500 home run club. The MLB.com source giving weight to six hits in a game is more convincing to me than the fact that seven has happened twice. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Only create an article if multiple sources have discussed the grouping per WP:LISTN.—Bagumba (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Featured list reviewers needed

Hi, all. I have two pages nominated at WP:FLC right now relating to baseball, and they are languishing while waiting for reviewers. Can somebody please check out List of New York Yankees owners and executives and/or List of Major League Baseball player–managers and make any comments? Thanks. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion

Talk:Heinie Meine#Requested move could use some input. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Outline Page

I can't find any references to it within the project (maybe I'm not looking in the right spot), but there is a draft of an Outline of Baseball here. I'd like to see this page on the main Wikipedia section, but right now it has "Draft" status. Can fixing it be added to the "Tasks" on the front page of the Project? Listmeister (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've never understood the fascination with these outlines. Frankly, it is simply a far less useful and much harder to maintain article version of Category:Baseball. Reso lute 18:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Visiting Category:Baseball may be a good way for some readers or editors to begin "work". For many of us and some kinds of work, a better point of entry must be the

entire (baseball) Category hierarchy.

Do we have a tool that displays the hierarchy below any given category? ...

Here it is: Category tree Baseball (JavaScript required)

--P64 (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Standardize Won/Loss Colors

Please see Template_talk:Table_cell_templates#Standardize_Won.2FLoss_Colors. --ben_b (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Recent changes?

Is there a way to track recent changes for only baseball articles? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Baseball#External_links—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up!

That works for other WikiProjects too, and gets copied to my user space. --P64 (talk) 22:03, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Copied to your user space, what does that mean? Sorry, I'm still new to all of this. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, That was a rare edit conflict for me, nothing but two people saying Thanks! User:Bagumba should feel good.

Visit User:P64 and you'll see that I have copied that URL near the top of my wikipedia homepage, along with a few others that are useful for my own quick reference. My user space is poorly organized with material such as this scattered across the tops of too many subpages (which may also be poorly organized in other ways :-(

Therefore visit the three extraordinary compilations that I recommend.

AutomaticStrikeout, you are not new this month :-) but WP:USER may yet be useful. --P64 (talk) 23:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I get easily confused by some of this technical stuff, but I think I get the general idea of how to check recent edits for specific categories. Thanks for the help! AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 23:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Robert Pender article

Not sure if he merits an article. Thought I'd get your input. He played for 20 seasons in the minor leagues, from 1886 to 1907 and managed at that level for nine years. He led the Baton Rouge Red Sticks to a league championship in 1903 and the Norfolk Tars to a league championship in 1907. Following his playing career, he umpired throughout the minors. Here are some articles that might constitute solid coverage: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. There are more too, if you look up "Captain Pender" and "Dad Pender," two monikers he went by. This article says he was the best third baseman in the Interstate League ever. He has some coverage in this book [8]. What say you? Alex (talk) 22:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

While most of the coverage was from a single source of the Youngstown Vindicator newspaper, making me wary of the requirement for multiple sources of significant coverage in WP:GNG, his frequent mention in the book makes him notable enough for me. And this is only based on the sources you listed here with no further searches. Thanks for posting this.—Bagumba (talk) 23:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess I agree with Bagumba. I certainly appreciate that in the case of an individual who may or may not be notable, you brought it here for discussion before creating it. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

numerical milestone categories

I have nominated Category:300 saves club and Category:500 home run club for deletion here. Note that I am not at all proposing the deletion of the lists 300 saves club and 500 home run club. Those are much better vehicles for providing the numerical accomplishments, as they provide context and numerical precision. Your feedback is welcome.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

(500 home run club is a regular article, not a List.)

One big difference between the articles home run#See also and Save (baseball)#See also is that the former includes a list of links to homerun-related lists (See also, linked here). Whatever FROBBY-related lists do exist ist probably should be linked to the main article FROBBY at See also; same for -related articles such as "500 home run club". Cross-references would be overkill but one back-reference would be appropriate: eg, one link back to Home run#See also (or a subsection of See also) in See also for each homerun-related list. --P64 (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no "see also" to 300 save club, but there is a navbox {{300 save club}} in Save (baseball).—Bagumba (talk) 05:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

"300 save club" does include section 300 save club#See also, which links two saves-related lists. My suggestion is that the every saves-related page (all saves lists and some other pages) should See also [[Save (baseball)#See also |Save-related articles]], which section of the main article should maintain links to all saves-related lists.

Save (baseball)#See also currently links only one saves-related list article, one of the two that "300 save club" Sees also.

In contrast, Home run#See also currently links 13 homerun-related lists and articles (no categories, i think). But no longer in contrast to saves, 500 home run club#See also links only three particular homerun-related pages and does not link back to "Home run#See also". --P64 (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

We should all be embarrassed

In April 2012, Portal:Baseball was viewed 1,663 times. In the same time period, Portal:Justin Bieber was viewed 4,417 times. I've noticed that a lot of our high profile pages (3,000 hit club, Hank Aaron, Bryce Harper, Cliff Lee, etc.) don't link to the portal. I linked a bunch of them to the portal, but could use your help in adding {{Portal|Baseball}} to more of our pages. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:32, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

So far this is working. The Baseball portal has almost as many views through half of May as it got for all of April. Suck it, Bieber! Still have to do more to catch his portal, though. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Advice about this article?

Hi,

I've been working on this article, John Adams (drummer), for about the past month and I'd like a little of your feedback. It's about one of the handful of dedicated, notable fans of baseball, and I think it's a little off the beaten path from what you normally deal with at this Wikiproject. But sure you have some advice on how to make it better and how to proceed. Already I think I'm getting close to taking it GAN (it's a very small article, but it's a small topic). So think of this as an informal peer review. Alright. Thanks -- Bobnorwal (talk) 06:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Splitting

Is there any possibilty, the other articles on relocated MLB teams will be split, the way the Expos/Nationals are? GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I sure hope not. Spanneraol (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Because this was a discussion that needed to be re-opened, yet again? Reso lute 02:36, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Well we can take care of all that drama right now by having a "one franchise, one article" policy on this, just like all the other franchise articles.--JOJ ^Hutton 03:22, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that we both know it will never happen for all of the reasons presented in over a dozen discussions that show it will never happen. But that will never stop GoodDay from trying to stir up drama, especially when he sees the same drama from the last discussion is starting to die down. Reso lute 15:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Never, say never. All the MLB team articles would be sync, if it weren't for unreasonable Canadian pride from some editors. GoodDay (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The previous discussions have been summarized at Talk:Montreal Expos/FAQ (including a list of various MLB franchises that have separate articles for their incarnations in different cities). If you have some new arguments to raise, new light to shed upon the previous points, or suggestions that help make a given compromise more attractive by addressing its shortcomings, please do bring them forward. In the interest of saving time, however, I think it would be good to avoid rehashing the same discussion points (which you agreed with as well). isaacl (talk) 07:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I was just checking in (on April 28) to make sure there was no hope of bringing the MLB team articles in to sync. GoodDay (talk) 07:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

GoodDay, many editors have spoken on this issue on both sides on many occasions, and have expressed a whole range of thoughts and arguments. You do yourself no favours by making comments that suggest that you think you are being more reasonable than all of the other contributors over the years that have expressed an opinion that differs from yours. Making a comment like "if it weren't for unreasonable Canadian pride from some editors" is unnecessary, uncivil and contrary to WP:AGF. Knock it off.--Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't perfect, we all know that, but it's not fair to admonish other editors when they point out obvious flaws in some of Wikipedia's consensus procedures.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

My comment was absolutely fair. I would similarly expect to be admonished if I said something silly like "if it weren't for the irrational WikiProject Baseball editors". And I think you should remember that a consensus with which you disagree ≠ obvious flaw in the consensus procedure. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Article question

I was wondering if this new article is notable. I wanted to bring it here first. Penale52 (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, an article summarizing a very specific type of player transaction for a baseball season seems completely unnecessary - this should be merged into the transactions sections of the MLB teams' season articles. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:22, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Does any article include a classified or annotated list of player status types? or list of player transaction types? (Category: Baseball labor relations contains two article, designated for assignment and player to be named later.)

The answers may be yes for current types, no for historical types; may differ for status and transactions. --P64 (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I nominated the list for deletion, Wikipedia isn't a newspaper to record player transactions, especially something so common as being designated for assignment. Secret ^account 01:43, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible list

I am considering making a list of the ejections for the current MLB season, and I wanted to know if this is going to be considered notable. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 15:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I see no need to have such a list for the current season. Would the list of ejections for the 1940 season interest you? IF not then why do we need one for this season? No use for this at all. Spanneraol (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I see no encyclopedic rationale for documenting ejections. Just because Wikipedia can be a source of information doesn't mean it should. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 22:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

If you wanted to make an all-time list of most ejections, then I could see that passing notability (I'm surprised that's never been created). Documenting each one this season, however, certainly fails list criteria. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:LISTN should be used as a guide for list notability.—Bagumba (talk) 22:19, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Unbreakable?

There's a Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable (2nd nomination) going on right now, for anyone who feels like weighing in. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Spring Training logs again

That conversation fizzled and got archived. I want to be clear, now that the WP:RECENTISM of spring training has faded, we can delete these from articles? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

For those like me who need a refresher, here's the previous discussion. My previous comment was "the main argument to keep is because the information is correct and some editors have the energy to support it. However, I haven't seen a reason why the information is notable." No compelling arguments to keep followed.—Bagumba (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, delete these please. Spanneraol (talk) 18:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

On it. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've deleted it from the 2012 season articles that had it (CWS, BOS, LAA) and the 2011 CWS season page as well. There may be more in 2011 and beyond, but I don't have time to keep looking and this is a start. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Regular season logs

On a side note from the Spring Training log discussion, I would even favor removing the regular season logs per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. The information is all available (and probably more accurate) via a single link to any number of external sites, and the WP article is not providing any added value of consolidating information from multiple references. IMO it just seems to be a lot of duplicate effort unless this was automated through some bot.—Bagumba (talk) 18:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not as set against these... as the regular season games are notable... However, I wouldn't miss them if they were gone... My main issue is that probably 80% of our season articles are just game logs... I wish the editors that are spending their time updating these things and various other stat tables would spend some time writing prose about the season... much better use of their time. Spanneraol (talk) 18:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Spanneraol. They're not as bad as the spring training logs, since these games actually mean something, but they detract from encyclopedic prose, and all they manage to accomplish is duplicating tables from stat websites. I don't get the point. Just like I don't get why stat pages have ridiculous "watch lists" (seriously, people update someone with 1,700 hits on the 2,000 hits page... 300 hits takes an All-Star caliber season and a half to achieve). – Muboshgu (talk) 18:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that the biggest loss is time better spent to explain what actually happened in the season when it is not obvious by just looking at logs from 162 games. I dont mind editors gaining interest in WP by starting with those types of edits, but there is otherwise little value to be gained from duplicating what is already available on an external site. Does anyone have any past experience on responses from people that were nudged?—Bagumba (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Not everyone can, or wants to write prose. People need to keep this in mind. It takes many different people doing many different kinds of things to make the wiki run. Gnomes who update stats are just as important as those who write prose. It isn't a loss of time if the editor wouldn't write prose anyways. If anything you are gaining edits from editors who wouldn't write prose to begin with. -DJSasso (talk) 19:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

True, no loss if they were never going to write pose anyways. But I wonder if that is more the case or if the editor would be willing to write pose but thinks stats are more "helpful". I guess its best to approach them one-by-one to see they are aware and interested in other (perhaps more important) tasks.—Bagumba (talk)

Yeah we couldn't know unless we asked each one individually, but I am guessing the sort of person who keeps sets of numbers up to date is a completely different type of person than would write prose. One being a logical brain type and the other being a creative brain type. I know I personally have a much harder time with prose than with fixing the ity bity gnomish stuff I take care of. If someone were to tell me my type of editing was a waste of time and that I shouldn't do it and should write prose instead I would just leave wikipedia. -DJSasso (talk) 20:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't remove them from the regular season, just because other editors choose to help the wiki in ways different than yours doesn't mean either of you aren't helping. Clearly someone looking at an article for a season of a sports team expects to see the results of the games. -DJSasso (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

That same logic would be used by Spring Training log proponents. If this was a presentation of stats in a different view or consolidated from multiple sites, someone could easier buy that it was "helping" even if they didn't like the content.—Bagumba (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

It's helping even if it is from a single site in that the reader doesn't have to leave Wikipedia. Even if I could find the stats elsewhere I would be greatly inconvenienced by having to go to another website to see them when I as a reader would expect them to be on the page I am currently reading. If the information is important to the article we should have it even if they information is found elsewhere. In fact the entirety of Wikipedia should be able to be found on other sites, that is sort of the point of what wikipedia does. It gathers notable information from other sources and puts it in a single place. Removing stats from a season article is effectively removing the most important information in a season article. Personally I wouldn't remove the pre-season either, but it wasn't worth getting into a debate about since it was the pre-season. However removing the regular season stats would in my opinion just be ridiculous. -DJSasso (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps my opinion is clouded by wanting to improve prose by converting time spent on stats. I will point out that the same argument to have stats without having to leave WP is inconsistent with the consensus to not have year-by-year player stats in bios. In the same vain, I actually prefer it in the player articles, but didn't think it was worth the effort of editors in the grand scheme of things and also per NOTSTATS.—Bagumba (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Game logs should only remain on page that get updated. They're not just on baseball season pages, but the NBA and NHL as well. –BuickCentury Driver 21:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll neither argue for nor against them for WP:MLB's purposes, but speaking from my experience with the Calgary Flames season articles I write, I hate doing the game logs. I find them tedious. However, I also believe they are an important, almost central, component of the articles. Sports are defined by statistics, and it seems silly to leave the most basic and important stats out of an article and claim that our work is complete. In my case, several editors have come along and maintained the game logs and player stats, while I write the prose. I end up getting the GA credit, but the articles are a good example of Wikipedia collaboration, and it gives other editors who may not feel comfortable writing prose an avenue to positively add to the project. YMMV. Reso lute 22:50, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I personally would be pleased to write more prose for the seasons I'm interested in writing about - currently only 2012 Washington Nationals season, but I'm open to expanding my interests - but I'm not certain of what should and should not be included in that prose. If someone could point me at a few examples of good-prose season articles, I can access the necessary sources for the prose. In the meantime, I'll just be a good little stats gnome :). - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Well the 2009 Philadelphia Phillies season is, I believe, our only season article that is a "Good Article" so I'd look at that one. Spanneraol (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, that is pretty. I like. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Template:Chicago White Sox roster

Would someone else mind intervening here? It's a small dispute, whether to list Adam Dunn as an infielder or DH. I think we've had an issue with this user (Carthage44 (talk · contribs)) before. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Bracket help

The 2012 SEC Baseball Tournament has been expanded to 10 teams from 8, so the current {{SECBracket}} won't work. I can't find a 10 team double elimination bracket template and I can't figure out how to edit the code to add another round. It will need to follow this format. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. ~ Richmond96 t • c 01:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about 10-team, but if I recall correctly, the Little League World Series uses a double-elimination system. Hope that helps. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 19:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Some one has actually created {{SECBracket2012}}, which works perfectly. I just didn't know how to get the code right. ~ Richmond96 t • c 22:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Player Statistics advice

I've been maintaining the player statistics for the 2012 Washington Nationals season. There is soon likely to be a pitcher who only has relief appearances - Chien-Ming Wang - who will be transitioned to a starting role. I'd like advice on how to represent his starting stats vs. his relief stats and his combined stats. My best current idea is to have his total stats included in the relief section, but only his stats as a starter in the starting section. But that seems unwieldy. Ideas? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Issues like that are why I tend to just put all pitchers together in a "pitchers" category on my pages... easier to deal with and you don't have to make choices like that. Spanneraol (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...maybe do that and add a Games Started column...though that might be too many columns. I'll think about it and play a little in my sandbox. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Wild Card standings?

This seems like a waste of space to me... Template:2012 NL Wild Card standings Way too early to be tracking and we never included it on previous seasons. Spanneraol (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

On the one hand, I agree with you that it's too early, and tracking it is probably too much. But on the other hand, it does seem useful to have once the season is over. I'd suggest keeping it, but keeping it off of pages during the active season. Unless...does it call to the various division standings templates? If it does, such that it doesn't need to be manually updated except by updating the divisions, keep it around. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 14:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I would think its even less useful once the season is over. Just ads more clutter to the pages. Spanneraol (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

About the only way this would have long term significance is if it was a graph showing the standings throughout the year. Otherwise, it's just news.—Bagumba (talk) 22:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Succession boxes

User user:Dirtlawyer1 is deleting succession boxes that seem to have a navigational box that covers the same subject. You may or may not have already noticed this, but I thought the project would like to know. I do not have a dog in the fight, and don't have opinion on the matter.Neonblak ^talk - 20:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Clarify please? The user is only deleting succession boxes when there's a navbox that's got a built-in succession mechanism too, if I understood correctly. Are they only doing this in baseball pages, or other places as well? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 20:21, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

While some may debate whether most succession boxes are even needed, I hope we all can agree duplicates for the same subject are redundant and not needed.—Bagumba (talk) 20:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Greetings. I just saw this discussion pop up on my watchlist. To clarify, I am only deleting succession boxes for which there is already a chronological navbox on the exact same subject (e.g. New York Yankees managers). There is no reason to have unnecessary succession box clutter when there is already a navbox. I am not deleting succession boxes for which no navbox exists (e.g. minor league managers, random awards, etc.). This has already been done throughout WP:NFL, WP:CFB and for all other college sports. Several core WP:HOCKEY editors continue to strongly prefer succession boxes over navboxes, and I leave their project's articles to their preferences. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

As long as you're confining yourself to succession boxes made redundant by other navboxes, I have no problem. Among other things, Wikipedia is not subject to the rules of the Department of Redundancy Department. :) - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 21:29, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Joliet Jackhammers players

Category:Joliet Jackhammers players, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merging. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Bill Miller (umpire)

There has been some difference of opinion about the content relating to the Brett Lawrie incident. I would appreciate anyone interested in discussing it on the talk page. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

There are also some IP addresses that revert attempts to refine the text of the article. Any assistance or advice is welcome. isaacl (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, the last five IP addresses to edit this article have begun with 98.142. I could be wrong, but that seems fishy. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hack Wilson's GA review

Does anybody want to help out by picking up the review at Talk:Hack Wilson/GA1? It's not far from passing, but the nominator, Orsoni (talk · contribs), hasn't edited on Wikipedia in a week and I don't know when (or if) he's planning on returning. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll see if I can tomorrow; hopefully a free block of time will pop up for me. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help in promoting this article to GA status while I was away on vacation. Much appreciated!Orsoni (talk) 21:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Top prospects

If I was to create an article listing Baseball America's top 100 prospects, would it be nominated for deletion? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably. The list is unique and original to BA, so is protected by copyright. Having an alphabetical list of top baseball prospects, and their ranking by the major baseball scouting organisations might be acceptable. (For example, yearly lists could include any player who was listed in the top 100 of any reputable ranking system.) It could also contain prose about which players are regarded as 'elite'. Article titles might be List of baseball prospects from 2012 or something similar. Mindmatrix 17:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 17:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If enough independent articles exist that could be used to recreate the list outside of the BA reference, it would be considered notable under WP:LISTN. For example, if one could find articles that "player X was #1 BA prospect", another that "player Y was #2 prospect", etc, it would not be a copyvio. In general, if a list is only available from the publisher, its a copyvio—not to mention not notable if nobody even writes about it.—Bagumba (talk) 17:54, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Kirby Puckett Discrepancy

This may be minute, but Kirby Puckett was drafted #3 overall in 1982, which is noted on his page. However, there is no mention of him on the 1982 MLB Draft page. I don't know how to fix this but I figured someone on here might. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.51.147 (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

There was a January draft, whereas 1982 MLB Draft only has the June draft results.—Bagumba (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Even List articles need at least short prefaces that explain what they are about. Articles on particular draft renditions such as 1982 Major League Baseball Draft, 1983, etc, desperately need to say what is the MLB draft, when was this one conducted, and (this incident suggests) what other drafts MLB conducted this year.

Rule 5 draft results needs something similar that explains how the list is incomplete. The template {{dynamic list}} is an overstatement for a list that is currently complete but needs periodic update; if that list article does cover all of the Rule 5 drafts to date, or lacks only completion of the latest rendition (2011/2012), then use {{update}} or {{update after}}.

move to Talk: Rule 5 draft results, although my forthcoming comments will make some suggestions that have general application. --P64 (talk) 15:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. --P64 (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

1997 AL East & Central

OK, this is a head scratcher. I randomly opened my The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Baseball Desk Reference ISBN 0-7894-8392-0 to the 1997 season (p. 160) and it said Detroit & Milwaukee flipped divisions that year, with Det. in the Central & Mil. in the East. But that didn't sound right to me, so I checked a few more sources and they all had Det. moving to the East in 1998 and Mil. moving to the NL in 1998; there was no flip of divisions in 1997. But then I checked one last source, Total Baseball (6th ed., 1998) p. 2380 and it has the 1997 flip of Det. & Mil. in the East & Central. WP & B-R.com do not have this 1997 flip. So what gives? Did Mil. play 1997 in the AL East or AL Central? One last thing, their records were almost identical: 78-83/Mil. 79-83/Det. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.216.98 (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall Milwaukee ever playing in the east... but in any event, the official source is MLB so check MLB.com [9] and you get the Brewers in the Central and the Tigers in the East. Spanneraol (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Did Total Baseball then err? Does anyone have a more recent TB that has a correction? I would be interested in knowing if TB corrected this. I guess a simple look at newspaper standings from 1997 would also answer this, but I don't have easy access to that right now. --64.85.216.98 (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

According to a Cincinnati Post article, "BASEBALL COOLS ON BIG REALIGNMENT RADICAL PLAN LOSES SUPPORT" dated August 23, 1997, the Tigers were in the AL East in 1997. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

According to American League West #Former members, the Brewers were an AL West founding member, but moved to the AL East in 1972, to the AL Central in 1994, and to the NL Central in 1998. Eagle4000 (talk) 17:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Although Detroit & Milwaukee did not flip divisions in 1997 (with Det. in the Central & Mil. in the East), Detroit did move from the AL East to the AL Central in 1998 (American League East #Former Members), at the same time that Milwaukee moved from the AL Central to the NL Central. Also, American League West #The Division Members says that -- in 1972 -- Milwaukee switched divisions with Washington/Texas, by moving to the AL East (from the AL West), while the newly named Texas Rangers franchise moved to the AL West from the AL East (where it had resided as the Washington Senators). Eagle4000 (talk) 18:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Place of birth in lead?

Is there a specific policy for having the place of birth in the lead for baseball players? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Yup. It doesn't belong there. See MOS:BIO for what's supposed to be listed in the first sentence and other parts of the lead section of a biographical article on Wikipedia.

I always include the birthplace in an "early years" section, along with the subject's family background, early education, etc., together with high school sports history if the subject is an athlete. If the subject is a MLB player and only briefly played college baseball, it may be appropriate to stick the short college history in the "early years" section, too. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Use of "winner" and "award" in infobox

Previous consensus for listing All-Star appearance was to use "All-Star" instead of "All-Star selection" for brevity. Should we do the same for "winner" where many infoboxes currently list "Silver Slugger Award winner" or "Gold Glove Award winner" (e.g. Alex Rodriguez). What about even removing "Award" and shortening to "Silver Slugger" and "Gold Glove"?—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Whereas players across many sports are often described as an "All-Star" as a contraction of "All-Star player", I don't believe MLB players are often referred to as a "Gold Glove". The grammar works a bit better in the case of "Silver Slugger", but my feeling is that it is still not common to refer to an MLB player by this abbreviated phrase. isaacl (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

In space-limited player infoboxes, let's delete/omit the use of words like "selection," "winner," "recipient," "honoree," etc. The name of the award followed by a parenthetical with the season (or seasons) that the award was received are self-explanatory. The additional words add nothing to the reader's understanding, and often cause an otherwise unnecessary and unattractive line-wrap. I have heard the unconvincing argument, as advanced by Isaac above, that it is somehow not proper to refer to a player as "a Gold Glove." To my way of thinking, "Gold Glove (2011)" does not refer to the player; it refers to the award and the year the player received it. Editors are free to use the words "winner," "recipient," "honoree," etc., in body text when describing a player's honors, and I would encourage them to do so to the extent necessary to create smoothly flowing prose. In the infobox, such words are surplusage and may be omitted.

In reviewing several hundred MLB player bios over the last several years, the only occasion where I believe the use of an additional word is necessary following infobox honors and awards is when we list World Series championships won by the player. Why this difference, you ask? Because when we list "World Series (2011)" in a player's infobox, it is unclear whether the player was on the winning team or was merely a participant. In this one instance, I advocate adding the word "champion" for clarity, as in "World Series champion (2011)." It is not necessary to add "winner" or "champion" to "National League pennant (1898)," however, because only the league champion claims the pennant; there is no ambiguity. In most MLB bios I've reviewed, league pennants are already presented in this fashion.

FYI, WP:NFL and WP:CFB have already decided to omit such unnecessary words from infobox honors by project consensus. WP:NFL, however, likewise makes an exception for such as "Super Bowl champion (XXXII)." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a reasonable argument; therefore I agree with omitting the word award. isaacl (talk) 15:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Omit the word "award" in the infobox, but keep it in the prose areas. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 15:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm kind of on the fence about this topic, but I definitely think that the word "award" should be retained in infoboxes for awards that are named after people (e.g. "AL CY Young Award", "Roberto Clemente Award"). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the need for brevity, as it's only one more word. Also, we need to remember that as an online encylopedia, these articles should be directed towards the neophyte reader who may know absolutely nothing about the sport, such as readers from countries where baseball isn't a major sport. To them, the words "Gold Glove" may be meaningless, whereas the word award would help clarify the entry. I think some editors lose sight of this and tend to direct articles towards sports fans who are already knowledgeable about the sport.Orsoni (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

(outdent) (edit conflict) (edit summary says "indecisive" and I can't disagree much with Orsoni)

It's reasonable to select an "infobox use names" for awards where some include the word "Award" and others do not, more likely IMO depending on length rather than what the award is named after. If this infobox or column were narrow, "Clemente Award" or "Clemente" might be reasonable.

The troubling point here is that this infobox cell covers more than awards, and group honors such as all-star, and even group achievements such as champions. The cell display name is "Awards and career highlights". Is there a fixed list of permitted highlights --at least for players who do have some permitted award, etc? (Free form seems entirely acceptable to me if a player's greatest achievement was "Triple and double in one game".) The listings in this cell ought to convey --for almost all readers, without reading another article-- which do refer to awards of some kind and which are other highlights. Abbreviations without 'Award', 'Crown', 'Medal', 'Trophy', etc may impair that --depending on what other listings occur.

{{Infobox writer}} has cell names on the left, which uses horizontal space, including one for Notable awards only, which saves horizontal space because Award goes without saying, in a general sense that may cover 'Medal', 'Prize' or whatever. ... even so, I find that it's common to abbreviate by dropping the fullname, as in Clemente Award rather than Roberto Clemente. ... Indeed, there is a tendency to display Awards: Pulitzer Prize rather than Awards: Pulitzer in History, although the 'Prize' is more famous than any baseball award. ... Awards: National Book Award rather than Awards: National Book, Fiction. ... Pulitzer and National Book in some award categories would be too long for one line, even without 'Prize' and 'Award'. I doubt that is why we spell out those redundancies and give less info where we do have room to abbreviate completely (underlined). I don't know of any relevant policy or guideline. --P64 (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought this discussion might be more productive if we had some concrete examples to discuss, approve, disapprove, improve, etc. The following list was taken from the list of World Series MVP articles:

2x World Series champion (1978, 1979)

not 2x World Series (1978, 1979)

2x National League pennant (1898, 1901)

not 2x National League pennant winner (1898, 1901)

14x All-Star (1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002,

2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)

not 14x All-Star selection (1995, 1998, 1999,

2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007,

2008, 2009, 2010)

4x NL home run champion (1957, 1963, 1966, 1967)

not 4x NL Home Run Champion (1957, 1963, 1966, 1967)

2x NL batting title (1965, 1966)

not 2x NL batting champion (1965, 1966)

World Series Most Valuable Player (1964)

or 4x World Series MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

not 4x World Series MVP Award (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

NL Most Valuable Player (1975)

or 4x NL MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

ALCS Most Valuable Player (1996)

or 4x ALCS MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

NL Comeback Player of the Year (1986)

not NL Comeback Player of the Year Award (1986)

AL Rookie of the Year (1996)

not AL Rookie of the Year Award (1996)

AL Manager of the Year (1989)

4x Gold Glove Award (1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)

not 4x Gold Glove (1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)

Hickok Belt (1955)

not Hickok Belt winner (1955)

Hutch Award (1966)

not Hutch Award recipient (1966)

3× NL Rolaids Relief Man of the Year (1977, 1978, 1980)

not 3× NL Relief Man of the Year (1977, 1978, 1980)

3x Silver Slugger Award (1992, 1996, 1998)

not 3x Silver Slugger (1992, 1996, 1998)

Babe Ruth Award (2008)

not Babe Ruth (2008)

Branch Rickey Award (2007)

not Branch Rickey winner (2007)

2x NL Cy Young Award (1978, 1981)

not 2x NL Cy Young (1978, 1981)

Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (2009)

not Lou Gehrig Award (2009)

Roberto Clemente Award (2010)

not Roberto Clemente (2010)

MLB career home run record (715)

MLB postseason RBI record (21 in 2011)

AL career stolen bases record (337)

2× NL complete games leader (2003, 2004)

not 2× NL leader in complete games (2003, 2004)

New York Yankees No. 5 retired

not New York Yankees #5 retired

Texas Rangers Hall of Fame

I think the list above is fairly representative of the most common MLB championships, honors and awards. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:50, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The conversation started with the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards; you seem to be suggesting to keep the word "award" for these prizes, in spite of your previous response. Is this correct? isaacl (talk) 02:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Isaac, I thought I was pretty clear in my original comment above, but apparently I was not. My original comments were really limited to the use of the additional words "winner," "recipient," "honoree," "selection," and the like, which some editors are compelled to add to infobox honors. (The most egregious example is adding "selection" to "All-Star" and "winner" to various other awards.) While I do not think tagging "Award" on the end of MLB, AL, NL, ALCS and NLCS MVP honors serves any useful purpose, other awards have commonly used names such as the Cy Young Award and the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award. Where an award is commonly known by an actual name that includes the word "Award" or "Trophy," we should use it. This is especially true where an award is named for a player, and omitting the word "Award" only serves to confuse readers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

As you responded to my discussion of the term "Gold Glove" and gave "Gold Glove (2011)" as a specific example, perhaps you can understand my confusion on the matter. isaacl (talk) 04:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Mea culpa, Isaac. In editing MLB bios, I have encountered so many infobox renderings of "Gold Glove winner (2011)" that I thought that the actual name of the award was "Gold Glove." It is not; the actual name is "Gold Glove Award." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, guys, can we finish this discussion and come to a conclusion? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

There was an argument to keep "Award" to distinguish cases where the award was named after a person, e.g. "Roberto Clemente Award" vs "Roberto Clemente". So I thought, "fine, just leave award on everything for simplicity", but I see "World Series Most Valuable Player", "NL Most Valuable Player", "AL Rookie of the Year" where "Award" isnt used. What is the general rule here? Is there are going to be exceptions, I'd prefer to not have them for Gold Glove or Silver Slugger, as baseball-reference.com lists them. Either have the rule as

1. Do not specify "Award" except in cases where the award is named after a person

2. Always use "Award".

I !vote #1.—Bagumba (talk) 23:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would vote to use award as mentioned above, for the benefit of readers who have no previous knowledge of the sport. Encyclopedia articles should not strive for brevity, but for thoroughness.Orsoni (talk) 00:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

To be clear (since there's multiple examples above), you would also want "World Series Most Valuable Player Award" and not "World Series Most Valuable Player Award"?—Bagumba (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

2012 NCAA Division I baseball season

The article 2012 NCAA Division I baseball season is seriously broken. The main part looks OK; but skip down to reference 56 and it becomes a sea of Node-count limit exceeded. This tells me that there are transclusion issues: either there are too many templates, or those templates are too complicated. The problem is not necessarily with one of the references. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Michael McHenry

Could someone make this redlink a blue one? He seems to have slipped under the radar despite being on the active roster of a major league team for the better part of a year and a half, being involved in an infamous bad call[10] (aside: what an obnoxious puff piece on a bad call where Meals obviously made the wrong call because he was tired and wanted to go home) and having some other high profile plays (e.g., [11]). Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Misspelled: Michael McKenry.—Bagumba (talk) 07:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Awful. I guess if one is going to be stupid, he might as well go all the way. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Or just blame the lousy Wikipedia search tool :-)—Bagumba (talk) 08:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:ANI

There is currently a discussion at ANI about someone producing a whole mess of draftee stubs. Interested parties may wish to comment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:21, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Here is the direct link to the specific section of the discussion: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:DGenao18_creating_unsourced_stubs_for_every_MLB_draft_pick—Bagumba (talk) 07:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

How to become a member?

How do I go about becoming a member of this project? Is there anything special I have to do? What responsibilities does one have upon becoming a member? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 23:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Just add your name to this list, and say to yourself "I am a full-fledged member of WikiProject Baseball member." Then, start editing what you are interested in. At least that is what I did :)Neonblak ^talk - 23:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Just be sure, during the initiation, to say, "Thank you sir! May I have another?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

First you have to sacrifice a live chicken. Then you have to put your right foot in, put your right foot out, put your right foot in and shake it all about. Do the hokey pokey, and turn yourself around. Then you have to stand on your head while reciting the Little league pledge: I trust in God I love my country And will respect its laws I will play fair And strive to win But win or lose I will always do my best.

Oh wait, thats the initiation for the National Rifle association. Oh well, just sign your name and let the fun begin.--JOJ ^Hutton 22:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Marty Foster

Would someone please look at the part about the Yankees ejections and decide if it is notable. I've already removed it as non-notable, but another editor has reintroduced it. This editor has also reverted some of my other edits, to the point that a paragraph of information that was not notable, not neutral, and not sourced was put back and duplicated. I don't feel like getting into an edit war, so I'd appreciate some help. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This has been dealt with by Muboshgu, although I suppose the IP editor may come back. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Umpire notability

Is there a set standard on what would qualify an umpire as notable enough for his own article? Is any experience at the MLB level good enough? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Unlike players, umpires don't typically get routine coverage in the media. So I'm not sure they would pass GNG even if this project said they'd qualify. So I don't think umpires have any inherent notability unless they can pass GNG. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:BASEBALL/N presumes notability of MLB umps.—Bagumba (talk) 22:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

And at the very least, umpires who are in the Hall of Fame would be notable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Report on the use of self-published sources

The first version of a report on the use of self-published sources is now available, in Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedia reliability. Some of the self-published sources listed in the report pertain to this project.

Suggestions on the report itself (a discussion has started here), and help in remedying the use of the self-published items that relate to this project will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 06:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Duplicate articles

Joe Kelly (pitcher) (created June 10th) and Joe Kelly (baseball) (created June 8th) are the exact same person. This project needs to figure out which one should stay and which one should be the redirect. Jrcla2 (talk) 00:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Joe Kelly (baseball) should probably be just re-directed to Joe Kelly. I didn't realize there was other Joe Kelly's when I created it.--Yankees10 00:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't it redirect to Joe Kelly (pitcher) until such time as there is another MLB player with that name? (That is, the only baseball player on that dab page is the pitcher.) Mindmatrix 00:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Redirect to Joe Kelly (Pitcher).--JOJ ^Hutton 00:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

There is also Joe Kelly (1910s outfielder) and Joe Kelly (1920s outfielder).--Yankees10 00:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thus Joe Kelly (baseball) should redirect to the disambiguation page. -Dewelar (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised Joe Kelly (baseball) wasn't already a redirect, considering there were two Joe Kelly's (plus Joe Kelley) before the new Joe Kelly debuted. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm surpised also. Probably why I made the mistake.--Yankees10 01:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking Joe Kelly (baseball) should be speedy deleted with CSD G6. Who would ever type it in? If they entered Joe Kelly, they would go to the individual Joe Kelly's and not to another dab. Unless we wanted to leave it solely as a placeholder so nobody uses it again.—Bagumba (talk) 01:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I grant you that no casual reader will type in "Joe Kelly (baseball)", and I doubt any of us would either, but I think it should serve as a redirect to the dab page. The fact that it wasn't a placeholder allowed this duplication to happen in the first place (although I see the baseball disambiguator article is older than the pitcher disambiguator article). – Muboshgu (talk) 02:00, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

My two cents: Joe Kelly (baseball) should redirect to Joe Kelly. Since there are now three baseball-related Joe Kellys, the disambiguation is necessary. I agree with Muboshgu in that if "Joe Kelly (baseball)" had been a redirect already (like it should have been) then this entire issue would have never arisen in the first place. I'm going to be bold and redirect it to the disambiguation page. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I have only one cent but I spend it in pieces (ha'pennies?). It is valuable to be consistent about the use or non-use of "(baseball)" to disambig people, even their disambig pages. Is there a way to check how many biographies and how many disambig pages currently have "(baseball)" titles? --P64 (talk) 15:27, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

... [12] If baseball-related disambiguation pages are reliably claimed by WP:Baseball, there are none that use "(baseball)" in their own titles. I suggest continuing that practice. Any that do exist but have not been claimed should be claimed, and converted to redirects rather than deleted, as argued by Muboshgu. --P64 (talk) 15:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Joe Kelly (baseball) was created on June 8 but was not added to Joe Kelly dab. Joe Kelly (pitcher) was created on June 10, and added to Joe Kelly at the same time. It would seem more likely the duplicates were created because the first one was not added to the master dab page, not that we need to create a new rule about creating (IMO unnecessary) redirects for "XXXX (baseball)" articles.—Bagumba (talk) 15:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there doesn't need to be a rule about creating "XXXX (baseball)" redirects, but if two or more baseball players share the same name then "XXXX (baseball)" should most definitely be a redirect to a disambiguation page. In basketball, there is a redirect established for Bob Duffy (basketball) because two different players by that name are notable. Hence, the (basketball) redirect is appropriate, and I think that the same logic equally carries over to baseball player articles. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Naming conventions for statistical ranking articles

I came across 2 articles that capture essentially the same information: 3,000 strikeout club and List of top 100 Major League Baseball strikeout pitchers. Can someone explain why we have both? "3,000 K's" is just a small subset of the info in "List of 100 K pitchers". Why should we duplicate a ranking for the same statistical category?

Similarly, I'm wondering why some of the statistical ranking articles are named the way they are. We have "List of top 100 Major League Baseball x category players", "List of Major League Baseball leaders in x category", "List of Major League Baseball players with y amount of x category", and "y club", all of which are essentially capturing historical statistical rankings. So why not have them named consistently?

Clubs

List of top

List of MLB leaders in career stats

List of players past stat threshold

Wouldn't it make most sense to standardize each article name as "List of Major League Baseball leaders in x stat"? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 05:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I've nominated a number of those articles for deletion personally. I think the clubs are notable as they are and would oppose renaming them. I think the other articles all violate WP:NOTSTATS. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

The clubs should all meet WP:LISTN. As for the other lists, if they exist, a name like ""List of Major League Baseball leaders in x stat" seems consistent with WP:LISTNAME: "Many lists are not intended to contain every possible member, but this does not need to be explained in the title itself ... the detailed criteria for inclusion should be described in the lead, and a reasonably concise title should be chosen for the list."—Bagumba (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

In groups two and three, I would name them all "List ... career leaders ..." in contrast to "List ... single-season leaders ..." for all-time and contrast to "league leaders" for annual season leaders. Bagumba cites LISTNAME on target, however, and one instance must be that "single-season" is unnecessary; "season" is good enough. Anyway, I wouldn't name any leaders lists ambiguously, without "career" or "season" or "league", etc.

Adding a few tidbits I have these suggestions

• Use "List of Major League Baseball term leaders in ..." where term is "career" for all-time career leaders, "season" for all-time single-season leaders, "league" for annual league leaders.

• Don't use "all-time" in list names concerning player achievements.

• For team (or ballclub, club, franchise, etc) achievements use "List of Major League Baseball [no term] leaders in team term ..." where term is "all-time" or "season". Thus "all-time" implies cumulative team/ballclub/etc achievements.

• Use ".300 batting average" rather than "a .300 batting average"; same for any player or team average or percentage.

• Don't use commas in numbers less than 10,000.

Should all existing lists should be renamed for consistency with the agreed naming convention, whatever it may become? I doubt it. --P64 (talk) 16:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Please accept my compliments on your proposal for long overdue standardization in the naming of these MLB list articles. I have only one small quibble, and that's with your proposal "Don't use commas in numbers less than 10,000." In American English, it is the standard convention to use a comma delimiter in any number greater than 999; IMO, it also makes them easier to read at a glance. It also consistently formats numbers when they are stacked in columns and tables. Please note that MOS:NUMBERS neither requires nor proscribes the use of comma delimiters in four-digit numbers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:32, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I might also suggest shortening "Major League Baseball" to "MLB". While initials are generally not used due to disambiguation, the long titles with baseball terms makes it clear which MLB is being referred to.—Bagumba (talk) 16:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Might I recommend a different alternative to ballclub/franchise achievements? I think "List of [team] leaders in [term] [stat]" is a better solution. For example, "List of New York Yankees leaders in career home runs" sounds better. Also, I would strongly argue to maintain the phrasing as "single-season" and move the term just before the statistic. Writing "List of Major League Baseball season (or single-season) leaders in home runs" makes me think the list will be about home run champions by year, whereas "List of Major League Baseball leaders in single-season home runs" makes it clearer the the list will be a ranking of the most home runs anyone has ever hit in a single season. If someone is a "single-season leader in home runs", then they led the league in home runs for a particular year. If someone is a "leader in single-season home runs", then they have the most home runs ever hit in one season. The placement of the time period affects the meaning of the phrase. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 17:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree about team-season and team-career achievements of players, which I intend to cover at all, and overlooked completely, and don't admire in my capacity as a fan ...

I meant the season and all-time achievements of teams:

- List of M.L.B. leaders in team season winning percentage

- List of M.L.B. leaders in team all-time winning percentage

Now I wonder why we don't say "... leading players in ..." and "... leading teams in ..." --for leadership other than (single season) "league leaders", which is too well established.

Here is one that I overlooked.

• Don't use "leader" in Top list names, "List of top 100 Major League Baseball ..."

Now I wonder whether all of the Top lists can be named simply "Top 100 Major League Baseball team season winning percentages" without "List of".

Offhand I prefer "MLB" but can any project get away with such a thing? Do I vaguely recall regular article, list, or WP:CATegory names where every "NABBP" has been spelled out in compliance? --P64 (talk) 19:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I can see a problem with making "List of top 100" the standard. If we rename the threshold articles (e.g. "List of players with 300 hr"), then some people above that threshold could get squeezed out of the newly-renamed "List of top 100" article. I like the "List of MLB leaders" convention because you can determine what the appropriate threshold for inclusion is. If the article is about hits leaders, we can say the threshold for inclusion is 2,000 hits. If the article is about walks, we can decide to just make it the top 100. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

John D'Acquisto

I'm seeking out advice on his article.

After D'Acquisto's baseball career was over, he was twice sentenced to prison for financial crimes. There are news sources for this no problem. At the moment the article contains three of them.

The thing is, I just rewrote Mr. D'Acquisto's article. He is a wikipedia editor[13] whose worked on his own article, may also have a second account[14], and he has edited[15] into the article claims that he exonerated of the crimes he was convicted of.

I have access to High Beam Research and have conducted a search of Google news article. There is only one article[16] that makes any mention of D'Acquisto being exonerated. It's a interview from 2011 after D'Acquisto edited his article.

To me, and anyone tell me if you feel I'm wrong, would think if D'Acquisto had eventually been exonerated of his crimes he would gotten media attention at the time it happened. Was I right in editing out Mr. D'Acquisto's claims?(The article was a mess with links all over the place and at one time included a phone number for Mr. D'Acquisto's attorney) Please give me some input on what should be done with the article. I've put the article on my watchlist. It wouldn't surprise me if Mr. D'Acquisto tries editing back in the old material....William 02:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

You missed his third account, which he used back in 2009 when I had a conversation with him about this issue. Crazy to think this is still going on. -Dewelar (talk) 03:13, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Heh..."conversation" is a strong word...I posted to his talk page, and he responded nearly two years later. -Dewelar (talk) 03:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I saw your conversation with Mr. D'Acquisto but missed his third account.

The 2011 news article is dubious to me. Why- Mr. D'Acquisto made many claims about his baseball playing that don't match the facts. He didn't throw 3 complete games in Richmond, didn't allow no runs in 11 games while with Oakland, and a few other tall tales. The reporter was clearly reporting IMHO things Mr. D'Acquisto was saying as fact without doublechecking anything. That makes me think the part about Mr. D'Acquisto being exonerated is also based just on what Mr. D'Acquisto said and not on any other proof....William 11:03, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

If it were up to me, I wouldn't take anything he said at face value, and certainly someone interviewing him has an interest in presenting him in a positive light, so I think leaving any mention of exoneration out of the article is prudent. I guess we really need are court records from the case. The link Mr. D'Acquisto posted in 2010 that claimed to link to such documents is dead now, and I have no idea how to search for such records. Perhaps someone else can help here. -Dewelar (talk) 15:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, the charges and conviction are well-sourced, so there's no WP:BLP issue there. And a link to Google Docs for his information? That...doesn't look so good. As for his editing his own article, both the conflict of interest noticeboard and, given he's used three accounts, WP:SPI might be applicable... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Well i have no comment on the issue at hand, but the article could use a rewrite.. that middle paragraph is extremely long and hard to read... could also use some wikilinks. Spanneraol (talk) 17:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

$%#@. I was just working on cleaning this up and had made some major edits, but lost them in an edit conflict. Not worth it to do all that work again. -Dewelar (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

That's why anytime I'm ever working on an article that may take a while, I save and save often. That way if there is an edit conflict, I only lose a little bit of work, rather than the whole thing. Also you could hit backspace on your browser and bring up the changes you made, then cut and paste into an updated version of the article.--JOJ ^Hutton 20:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my big problem was that I fumbled getting my text into the clipboard, and was left pasting nothing. *shrug* It's all information that someone else can get anyway, just annoyed at the lost work. Just a tip for others: if someone suggests improving an article, it might not be a good idea to jump right in and tag it for improvement. Give people a chance to actually, you know, do it first. -Dewelar (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment - This is a situation best suited for Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard and/or Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboards than here. Yes it's a baseball related article, but you may get better feedback on those boards.--JOJ ^Hutton 18:42, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I cleaned up the stuff about his playing career and added links... need to find sources for his playing in the "senior league" or his being asked to return in 1990... Spanneraol (talk) 00:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I did further cleanup to the article including the putting in of references, took out statements that didn't adhere to NPOV, took out claims of D'Acquisto getting a offer from the giants in 1990(Which I could find no verification for with either High Beam or Google News Archive searches) corrected the date on which he was released by the Richmond Braves etc. He did pitch in the Senior League, that's not in dispute.

For everyone's information, I did report[17] D'Acquisto's edits to the COI board....William 01:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Umpires Proposal

For those who are interested, there is currently a proposal to create a WikiProject specifically focused on umpires. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

James Bates

For what it's worth, I created the stub James Bates (baseball) today. If anyone wants to attack it to add to it please do so. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I just nominated the article for deletion. A- Minor League baseball players are almost always not notable and B- There is nothing at the baseball reference page you gave as a source other than a name. So the article is unsourced....William 23:23, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The average minor leaguer is not going to be considered notable unless he did something extraordinary, like hitting 60 home runs in a season (as with Joe Bauman or winning nearly 300 games (as with Frank Shellenback). Shellenback was actually in the majors briefly, and is theoretically notable just on that basis; but he is far better known as an enduring minor league star. But for every Frank Shellenback, there are maybe a thousand guys whose cup of coffee was in the minors rather than the majors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree, speedy delete. I did a quick Google look-see, and most of the hits involve a CBS announcer falling off his stool. So that, I guess that would be much more notable...if it were notable.Neonblak ^talk - 00:34, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Yup I was going to prod it when I saw this comment yesterday, but I wanted to wait to see what others said. -DJSasso (talk) 11:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

There's another problem with Jrcla2's edits. He's creating category pages for college baseball players and in the category pages he's putting in a link to the university as if the university has its own category page. Unfortunately, that's not always so and therefore the category pages have redlinks in them....William 11:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call my edits a "problem" considering all categories can and should eventually be created pertaining to colleges and universities. If there is a policy about not including red link categories within other subcategories, please show it to me because I will stop doing that if it's against policy. Otherwise there's nothing wrong with it and it encourages category creation. I also have no qualms with the baseball player being deleted because I was unaware that those minor league teams he played for did not bestow inherent notability (I'm mainly a college basketball and football editor who's been dabbling in college baseball lately for uniformity among our three WikiProjects). WilliamJE, perhaps you ought to rethink your approach to interaction with, or about, other editors. Judging by your ruthless attack on the WikiEtiquette moderators (as evidence on your userpage) and that you're currently embroiled in a WikiEtiquette assistance debate yourself, it's not always 'everyone else.' It was pretty contentious to call my edits "problems" even though I'm clearly one of the good guys on this website (related: since when has creating a semi-professional baseball biography, whose creator genuinely thought was notable, to be problematic? Because that is what was insinuated by lumping that and my redlink categories together). Jrcla2 (talk) 18:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

You're clearly not familar with WP:REDNOT which states- Red links are generally not included in either See also sections nor in navigational boxes since these navigation aids are intended to help readers find existing articles. An exception is red links in navboxes where the red-linked articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referendums, presidents, sports league seasons, etc.

An article should never be left with a non-existent (red-linked) category in it. Either the category should be created, or else the nonexistent category link should be removed or changed to a category that does exist.

You didn't know that policy. That's why your edits are a problem....William 19:27, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

And I appreciate you pointing out the red link policy. But, it would have been a much more easily correctable issue if you had politely dropped me a note on my talk page with a "hey, noticed you creating categories with red links...here's a policy that says why they shouldn't be there" rather than this approach. But hey, it's your prerogative. Have a great day. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

You could have easily have learned REDNOT on your own by doing WP:REDLINK instead of going to my user page and then writing about it here. WP:CIVIL keeps me from saying more....William 20:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The easiest way to avoid this, of course, is to immediately place the new school category in the appropriate parent category (in this case, Category:College baseball players in the United States), thus making it no longer a redlink. -Dewelar (talk) 22:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Two-seam fastball vs. sinker

One thing that's bothered me for a while is the ambiguous way Wikipedia (and other places) treat the two-seam fastball and the sinker. On the talk page of the sinker article, I opened up a discussion on this issue because the article says the sinker is "also known as the 2 seam fastball," which strikes me as strange since we have a page for that pitch as well. Do they overlap that much? If they do, should the pages be merged?

As Bill James and Rob Neyer write in their book, The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers: An Historical Compendium of Pitching, Pitchers, and Pitches:

Until (roughly) the 1920s, you would see only one term: “fast ball.” Gradually, though, players and writers started talking about different kinds of fastballs: sinking fastballs (commonly, the “sinker”), rising fastballs, tailing fastballs, sailing fastballs, even sliding fastballs. Most of those terms remained in standard use until the 1990s, when for some reason they were replaced by terms that described how the ball looked to the hitter (“two-seam” and “four-seam”) or how the pitch was thrown (“cut fastball” and “split-fingered fastball”), rather than how it seemed to behave.

If we go by that logic, the pages should be merged because the two-seamer is the modern incarnation of the sinker. Seeming to agree with this distinction is Dan Brooks, who groups two-seamers and sinkers together on his pitcher charts.

I'm more inclined to agree with a separation. As I understand them, two-seamers and sinkers serve different purposes -- which is why their actual movement, at least characterized by PITCHf/x, is somewhat different.[18] Two-seamers exist as a variant of the four-seam fastball, usually thrown as an alternative for pitchers facing hitters from the opposite side of the plate (the greater horizontal break away from the plate aiding the pitcher's cause, in theory). Sinkers tend to be utilized more by sinkerballers — people who use it as their primary pitch, like a knuckleballer would.

Therefore, I recommend keeping the pages separate and more clearly delineating the differences between the pitches in the articles. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Possible change to umpires infobox?

I've noticed that there seems to be a flaw with Template:Infobox Mlbumpire. The template is written so that all umpires' names are automatically wikilinked. While this may not seem like an important issue on the surface, it prevents umpires with disambiguated article names (example: Adrian Johnson (umpire)) from being included, and instead forces the infobox to link to the wrong page. While there are ways to avoid this, they are somewhat confusing and cumbersome, and it would be much easier if the wikilinks were simply removed from the template. Can anyone do this? Delaywaves • talk 23:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, it would be nice if a date and place of birth could be included in the infobox. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 03:33, 20 June 2012 (UTC)