Talk:Malcolm X/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions about Malcolm X. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 4

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Leaving the Nation of Islam

I am trying to learn why he left, especially why there was apparently such rancor against his leaving. These sentences are not helping me: After he left the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X began to articulate his own views. During the final year of his life, his philosophy was flexible, and it is difficult to categorize his views on some subjects. Some of the themes to which Malcolm X frequently returned in his speeches demonstrate a relative consistency of thought. This strikes me as obfuscation, intentional or otherwise. Do we know what aspects of Nation teachings he rejected? Rumiton (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to clarify the article over the next few days. In short, Malcolm X rejected the idea that the Nation of Islam's teachings were Islam and that Elijah Muhammad was a holy man. He also rejected the view that white people were devils; he said that people should be judged by their actions, not by the color of their skin.

Part of the rancor toward Malcolm X was due to his incessant public criticism of Elijah Muhammad. Leaders of the Nation of Islam described him as a traitor who was worthy of death, and many NOI members agreed. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, that's interesting. If we can express it that succinctly without straying from sources, the article will thank us. Rumiton (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It still reads as confused. I don't know enough about the subject to work on it myself, but I am happy to help. Rumiton (talk) 13:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the Independent views section is causing the most confusion. With other editors' agreement I would like to work on it. As I know little about the subject, my revision will be a test of the article's coherence. Rumiton (talk) 09:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

For those Watching this page

I have opened a RSN case on the Bruce Perry Book as it smells funny to me It can be found here Weaponbb7 (talk) 04:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Meeting King Faisal

The Autobiography of Malcolm X, Chapter 17, apparently tells us that King Faisal lent him a car to do his Hajj with. Did this happen without their meeting? (Just asking.) Rumiton (talk) 09:11, 12 August 2010 This is the link again: (UTC) http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/malcolmx/section8.rhtml Rumiton (talk) 10:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Malcolm X met Faisal's son during his hajj (April 1964), but I can't find any source that indicates Malcolm X met Faisal during the UN general assembly meeting in September 1960. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, but it seems strange that the king lent him a car for a journey on which he met the prince, but he never met the king himself. Rumiton (talk) 10:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I just re-read the relevant portion of the Autobiography. Malcolm X did meet Faisal as well as his son during his hajj. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I added it (perhaps a bit clumsily) to the pilgrimage section. It could use a page number and a tidying up. Rumiton (talk) 14:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Lede image

I think the current lede image is not the best image available. The current shot is up his nose, and not a good image for the lede IMHO, though it works well with the gunshot holes image below. I would like to see if anybody else thinks the one with him looking to his right, and seated is better for the lede. — GabeMc (talk) 04:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing myself. The previous photo was not only better technically and aesthetically, it was also infinitely more recognizable. I would bring it back and move the new photo to somewhere amid the 1964-65 section. SteveStrummer (talk) 05:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's see what Malik thinks first. — GabeMc (talk) 05:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care which pictures are used. When the article was promoted to featured status, it had this picture in the infobox, which happens to be from the press conference at which Malcolm X announced his departure from the NOI. But as I wrote, I'm not partial to any particular image. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we get this image reversed so Malcolm is right facing? — GabeMc (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not a good idea, it's kind of meddling with evidence. Left-right orientation can be important. Rumiton (talk) 10:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Name in Arabic all wrong

Arabic is read from right-to-left. Even so the way the name is written in Arabic does not match how it's been written here in English even if you read the Arabic backwards. The Arabic reads: الشباز الحاجّ مالك ‎(=El-Shabazz El-Hajj Malik) where as the English says it is "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" (= الحاجّ مالك الشباز). After meddling with the page a bit I've come to the conclusion it's a problem with the line break that arises depending on the size of the window. Decreasing and Increasing the size of the window I've found that the order of the names are correct at a certain width, but wrong at others. I don't write Arabic script on the computer so I'm not sure how to fix this. Perhaps some other editor knows what to do. Rlinfinity (talk) 16:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Where can I find his speech about the comparison of house-negroes and field-negroes?

I think that this was the most important speech he ever made when speaking about the house-negroes and the field-negroes. Why do we not integrate it in the article or at least link to the speech? --188.46.45.30 (talk) 22:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I first heard it on a vinyl record I borrowed from a library, "Malcolm X: message to the grass roots" I believe. — GabeMc (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is a YouTube link, but we would need a reputable source to tell us about it, especially as his early radicalism was very much tempered later in life. Rumiton (talk) 14:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The speech is important enough that it has its own article. See Message to the Grass Roots. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 08:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

(malxom x biography ) mistake

Hi. There are a number of things about the House Negro - Field Negro speech that are interesting. Firstly, the great film of it is now no longer on youtube. A shame. You can at least see the reactions of people as he moves them from anger to humour and back again like a master. Secondly, the latest time I've seen the speech (he made it frequently) was 4th Feb 1965.... Can this be true? I'd love to know because by this time he'd had his damascene conversion and in that speech he's extemely nasty about non-violence practitioners.. (CORE, SNCC et al were extremely tough and brave young people - how he could equate MLK and them as traitors is breathtakingly awful...I'd therefore be extremely grateful if anyone could tell me the last time he made the speech..Imagine where he could have led SNCC, Stokely and the Black Panthers if he hadn't been ASSASSINATED...? 1969 with MLK & him alive. Lord. Philthegeordie@hotmail.co.uk for any definitive times for the last FN/HN speech. Much appreciated. {{edit semi-protected}}

Noormubarak (talk) 12:40, 25 December 2010 (UTC) it is mentioned in Malxom X biography that during his youth, he was involved in sex with men for money. this is totally a lie. out of respect for a man who died fighting for morals and human values, remove this disgusting unrelevent and misleading point.

Not done: Please see this and earlier archived discussions. The Wikipedia article simply reports what an apparently reliable source says, and notes that other biographers have not made the same claim. Unless you have a good reason for believing this to be untrue, there's no reason to remove it. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 14:30, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

edit request

please add this famous photo, File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif Malcolm X holding an M1 Carbine and pulling back the curtains to peer out of a window. A similar image first appeared in Ebony magazine.

File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 (talk) 17:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can't add that picture because our use of it wouldn't satisfy Wikipedia's non-free content criteria. The photo is subject to a copyright, we describe it in the article, and adding the photo wouldn't add anything to the reader's understanding that the text doesn't. I wish the copyright rules here were different, but we can't add it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Change in the Lead

I changed the lead to reflect the fact more clearly that Malcolm X disavowed his time with the Nation of Islam. He was a spokesperson for them but when he was free of them he called himself foolish and his time with them 12 years wasted. So who was Time's most influential man? The front man preaching the views of the Nation of Islam or the free man who was traveling the world to find himself. Hopefully anyone trying to get at his philosophy will clearly understand that he himself repudiated his speeches while with the Nation of Islam. Too important not to mention in some way in the lead. Glennconti (talk) 05:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

While this is true we must be careful not to state "wasted years" as this is out of context and undue weight. It gives the reader the impression to dismiss everything he previously said by Mr. X. Now unless we can deal with specifics for example "White man is the devil" I think you will find that not that much changed. Often the detractors do this to take the spike out of Malcolm, "dont take anything he said in the nation, as he disagreed with that and made a complete U-turn" NOT TRUE. A issue with the organizations of NOI doesnt mean "By any means necessary" is now invalid. Undue weight. Wasted years might mean also building the nation, not the ideology of liberation (that never changed) --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I have added back in the the idea that Malcolm X had regrets about his actions as a member of the Nation of Islam. And I have named one of them: his reform of his ideas about racism. Malcolm X had no love for the NOI after he left. Hell, some of their members killed him. Why glorify his time with them when he himself called himself Elijah Mohammed's puppet? He was trying to say the ideas were not his and he had serious regrets. This is too important not to say.Glennconti (talk) 12:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid the sentences you added, while well-intentioned, may convey a meaning you didn't intend. "His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence." This criticism didn't stop when Malcolm X left the NOI. You added a sentence that says "However, his philosophy changed after he left the Nation of Islam." This suggests his critics were right and that he abandoned the teachings that led to that criticism after leaving the NOI. (It also suggests the criticism stopped when he left the Nation.) I don't believe his critics were right, and I feel quite strongly that Wikipedia shouldn't be taking a position on the matter.

I also think there's merit to what Halqh wrote: Malcolm X didn't wake up one March morning in 1964, leave the Nation of Islam, and change his philosophy. His philosophy had been evolving while he was an NOI member, especially during 1963, and it continued to evolve until his death.

In the spirit of WP:BRD, I'm going to Revert your Bold additions while we Discuss them. Okay? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:01, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

@Malik: Important points nicely made. Rumiton (talk) 10:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

It would be strange to meet any intellectual or revolutionary who didnt evolve. Look at King, look at Dubois. Un Due Weight. I 100% agree with user Shabazz. Look even at Gadaffi. Malcolm had a beef with NOI (the organizational corruption), more so than their ideology. He had a problem building up the NOI and serving a "false prophet". His ideology as it relates to Why he is Malcolm X did not change as implied in that POV sentence. Post Hajj "They can not be any Black White unity unless there is first Black unity" (How has his ideology changed? Did he become MLK and sing "we shall overcome"? Did he stop saying people had a right to defend themselves? No he got heavier and declare USA should be taken before the courts. Human rights issue.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 13:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact remains that his philosophy did change and he did disavow racism. People study what Mr. X said to understand what he stood for. And some criticize his stand while at the NOI. But he repudiated the NOI. He said he was a ventriloquists dummy. ALL YOU ARE DOING IS ALLOWING MALCOLM X TO CONTINUE TO BE A SPOKESMAN FOR THE NATION OF ISLAM. This would not be his intent if he were living today. That is, if he had not been murdered by them. He left the NOI and changed his philosophy. What are you afraid of. The truth will not hurt you and it desires to be said in the lead. Glennconti (talk) 13:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Further, my statement that his philosophy changed comes after both what his praisers and his detractors said. The "however" is and injection of truth after both speculations or points of view.Glennconti (talk) 13:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Consensus remains with Malik Shabazz - leaving the article as is...Modernist (talk) 14:06, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Also there is plenty of space for adding SPECIFIC changes he made ideologically, see bottom of the article not the LEDE.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There is not consensus. That he changed his philosophy was already in the lead. I just moved it up some. It should stay in the lead and be moved where I had it. I also added some language. Which we should negotiate. But to remove all idea that his philosophy changed from the lead is wrong. Glennconti (talk) 14:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that. The lede says he became a Sunni Muslim, went on a pilgimage and renounced racism. They are quite major changes. Rumiton (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Right and I think that should be said right after he is being accused of being a racist. And specifically that his philosophy changed from the NOI time. Glennconti (talk) 14:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

How about right after he is being accused of being a racist we say: "However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime and he later disavowed racism." In this way we don't even have to mention that he ended up disliking the NOI because this truth makes people here uncomfortable.Glennconti (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Glennconti, please moderate your tone. We can all bring something of value to this debate. Rumiton (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry for any immoderate tone. That was not my intention. What do you think of the language I have proposed? Glennconti (talk) 15:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I have proposed a new and different change to the lead as follows:

"However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime and he later disavowed racism.".

If there are no dissenting comments I will be so bold as to make this change myself after a period of time. Glennconti (talk) 23:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm concerned that you're missing the point of the first paragraph of the article. It summarizes, in very brief fashion, who Malcolm X was and why he was important. What his admirers saw in him and—since he was (and remains) a very controversial figure—what his detractors said about him. The first paragraph doesn't say anything about what Malcolm X believed or taught (only what his detractors accused him of teaching).

I think there's room to improve the third paragraph. It says that Malcolm X left the NOI, became a Sunni, and disavowed racism. I think there's an opportunity there to say more about other changes in Malcolm X's philosophy after he left the NOI. Do you have any specific suggestions? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand that the lead is for important summary. I feel that it is very important for people to understand That Malcolm X changed his philosophy so people should be encouraged to study his entire body of work. Especially the later time after he left the influence of the NOI. I feel that you do a disservice to Malcolm X if you just study the speeches while he was at the NOI and think that was all he was about. Dare I say it, he hated them and his daughter wanted to get revenge. There was a blood feud. This counts for something and is very important. What I have proposed is the truth and is very mild. I feel the NOI wanted Malcolm X silenced so he could not alter as he STARTED TO their doctrine. Who knows what Malcolm X would have said had he not been killed. I too feel that the supporters of the doctrines of the NOI want to silence me also. The change to the lead should be allowed. Glennconti (talk) 13:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Please understand that what you (or we) feel really counts for nothing, and speculating on what he might have said if not killed, or what his daughter might have wanted to do is futile. We can only report what reputable sources have said, and I believe the article does this quite well. One area where your comments might be relevant is the treatment of NOI in the lede. It does not explain that inter-racial hatred was an integral part of their philosophy, and probably it should. Otherwise the significance of "...and disavowed racism" may not be properly understood. Rumiton (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I think we all agree that the article is quite good. But I think we also all agree that it is possible to change the lead to improve it. To get back to my proposed change it has been said of the proposed change that it adds undue weight to his later ideas. Please consider this. Of the three phases of his adult life where should we look to find where he ultimately stood. A) When he was a criminal and drug user? B) When he was with the NOI? C) When he was a Sunni Muslim? We need to say that "Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime." This is indisputable and invites reflection on all phases of his life. Can we not at least agree on this? Further, that he "disavowed racism" is also an indisputable fact and I think give the appropriate weight to his final ideas. What do you all think? Glennconti (talk) 18:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the lede already says that Malcolm X disavowed racism. Yes, I double-checked: it does say that. I've asked you if there you have any other specific suggestions for that paragraph. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that it does. However, I want to move it to a more prominent position in the first paragraph. I think the article will be enhanced if we make a change to the first paragraph. For some reason you will broach no change to the first paragraph. I have shown that this is a very important idea I am trying to convey. Why do you resist this and further will not negotiate the language? And I want to add the idea that his philosophy changed over his life time. Why do you also resist this? Glennconti (talk) 06:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I am just trying to get a handle on what you are saying. I agree that the evolution of his ideas could bear greater emphasis in the lede. Do you have a concrete suggestion? Rumiton (talk) 08:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the lead currently says:

To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]

I would like it to say:

To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his life time and he later disavowed racism. He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]

So as not to be redundant in the lead the "and he later disavowed racism" bit is a movement from a subsequent paragraph in the lead. Glennconti (talk) 12:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with that change. Rumiton (talk) 12:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Disagree who said he was ever a racist in the first place? Where is the global source that said he was a racist, you cannot become a non-racist if you already and always were non-racist. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The first paragraph says this in the second sentence and appears to be well referenced. Do you propose that we also change the second sentence of the first paragraph? It currently reads: His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] Glennconti (talk) 17:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Halaqah - The change I have proposed specifically answers the charges that he was a racist by saying he disavowed racism. He was accused of racism and then he disavowed it. I should think that you would want to clear the air. I have checked some sources on the Internet and some say at one point he was a racist. But we don't need to get into that in the lead and I don't think we should. Please see [1] where this one pundit says that Malcolm X was initially a racist. You have strong feelings that Mr. X was never a racist. Will you be able to maintain a NPOV in this discussion? Glennconti (talk) 18:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Glennconti, where in the first paragraph does it discuss any of Malcolm X's beliefs? Why, of all the things he taught, should we single out racism? Why don't we say that he advocated self-determination for African-American communities? self-defense? human rights? freedom?

Also, as I wrote earlier, the conjunction "however" suggests that Malcolm's critics were right. Wikipedia shouldn't take sides on that matter. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Please dont worry about my feelings for Mr X. It goes back to the problem of undue weight which makes us think as the above editor notes "HIS critics were correct, he was a racist after all" that is a NPOV? He never was a racist. Show me universal sources from his fans where he is considered a racist? He said he was against racism. He cannot fight racism and be a racist. It give weight and preference to the detractor argument. Did Amiri Baraka say he was a racist? Did Molefi Asante say he was a racist. I never consider X a racist and i dont know anyone that does. Spike Lee, John Clarke, Karenga also doesnt think he ever was. ...--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 19:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Halaqah - I have no opinion as to whether or not Mr. X was initially a racist. Nothing in what I have proposed "makes us think" anything. Think what you want. You obviously have a point of view. I am simply stating the truth. Glennconti (talk) 20:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Malik S.--- Then I take it you have a problem with the conjunction and the proximity of the "disavowing of racism" idea (but have no problem with the philosophy changed over his lifetime idea). I am willing to discuss an alternative conjunction - any suggestions? Further, the structure is admirers then detractors. Would you be more comfortable with detractors first then admirers then the change. In this way, we put more distance between the first mention of racism and the second? However I don't understand your need for separation of the two uses of the idea of racism. I think the two references to it (racism) in the lead should be close together because they seem to go together. Glennconti (talk) 19:44, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't read your mind. If you are critical of the change, please offer an alternative. Or I will be forced to make changes trying to guess what you don't like. Please try and be constructive. Glennconti (talk) 11:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion the lede is fine as is...Modernist (talk) 12:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Others have the opinion it can be improved. Are you trying to block any improvement to the article? Glennconti (talk) 13:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Break

No one wishes to make a counter proposal, so I will propose a new change in hopes that it will achieve consensus. How about: Regardless of his admirers and his critics, the fact remains that Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime. In this way, we have altered the conjunction and don't even mention the possibility that his position on racism may or may not have changed. This should satisfy both Malik S. and Halaqah. If I get no feedback after a period of time I will assume this change is acceptable by all parties. Glennconti (talk) 17:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility that nobody has made a counter-proposal because nobody else sees a need for a change in the lede?

Your latest suggestion is at least as bad as the earlier ones. The language seems completely out of place in the first paragraph, which discusses how others have perceived Malcolm X.

I told you where I thought a mention of Malcolm X's philosophy belongs—in the third paragraph of the lede. You've completely ignored that suggestion. Here's a new suggestion: maybe we should try to summarize Malcolm X#Philosophy and include that as a fourth paragraph in the lede.

Finally, please stop your threats. They're really annoying. There is no deadline. We'll add to the article when we reach consensus, not when you decide. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:34, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

At least one other person agreed that a change to the lead was warranted and when I say I will make a change after a period of time, it is not a threat it is a courtesy. How do I know if others have lost interest in the discussion or not? As you know any editor has the right to make changes and no one owns an article. Do you have any thoughts to an summary outline on this fourth paragraph? Glennconti (talk) 19:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess that was me, and though I am still learning about this subject, I am surprised that there is resistance to describing his pre-Hajj beliefs as "racist." There are many sources like this [[2]] one that report on his opinion that white people were devils and incapable of any goodness, while blacks were the only true humans. It is to his great credit that he overcame this early stuff, but is there really a problem with calling it racism? Rumiton (talk) 16:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't dispute that Malcolm X's teachings during his years in the NOI were racist. What his beliefs were, on the other hand, we'll probably never know. Please read the first paragraph of Malcolm X#Beliefs of the Nation of Islam.

Still, I don't have any problem saying he disavowed racism. The lede already says that. The article already says that. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, I see where you're coming from. OTOH, if he didn't actually believe the stuff he was saying, what did that make him? A puppet, OK. And the article already says that. I still find something vaguely unsatisfactory in the way the lead currently treats this period of his life. Need to think some more. Rumiton (talk) 05:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

What was the issue again because It already says this in the lede (per shabazz comments). But Did Malcolm actually say "I am no longer a racist?" --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 12:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if Malcolm X ever said that, but he wrote from Mecca that his experiences with fellow Muslims of all colors had "forced [him] to re-arrange much of [his] thought patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of [his] previous conclusions" (emphasis in original). — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the resistance to the original idea for the first paragraph of the lead. A) Malcolm X was accused of racism. B) Malcolm X changed his philosophy over his lifetime. C) Malcolm X disavowed racism. All three are verifiable facts. Any conclusions or inferences from the three facts are completely up to the reader. Glennconti (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you haven't been reading my messages. I have no objection, but I don't think it belongs in the first paragraph. There is nothing in the first paragraph that discusses Malcolm X's beliefs or teachings, so why would we say that they changed over his lifetime? I think the proper place for that discussion is in the third paragraph, after we've mentioned some of his beliefs (Black pride and Black self-reliance, which he never abandoned).

I'm very busy right now with a project at work, but I think the lede would benefit even more from a fourth paragraph that summarizes the Malcolm X#Philosophy section of the article. Would you care to start it? Otherwise it will have to wait a little while. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Creating a fourth para wouldn't be a ten minute project. Its content would impact on the first three, and quite a few things would need to be shifted about. Basically, the whole lede would need rewriting and there would inevitably be issues of consensus. Still, I agree it would add value to the article and it should be done. If nobody else does, I'll make a start in the next few days. (Famous last words? I hope not.) Rumiton (talk) 04:34, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, I had a go. There is still a lot of disjointedness in the lede, and too many refs which I think should have stayed in the main body. But it's a start. Rumiton (talk) 10:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I may be out of date with thinking refs should be minimised in the lede. I see the current version of WP:LEAD no longer says so. Rumiton (talk) 11:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

This is interesting that we are making this change right around the time of a new book out on Malcolm X. The title is "Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention" which from its title talks specifically about how Malcolm X's philosophies changed over time. The book is due out April 4th. Glennconti (talk) 16:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Great work, Rumiton. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for improving it. Rumiton (talk) 09:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Nation of Islam

This rather clumsy title now appears 60 times in the article. I tried to initialise it (NOI) but that was reverted. Any other ideas how this might be streamlined? Rumiton (talk) 12:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to use an abbreviation that isn't widely known (at least I don't think it's widely known—if I'm mistaken, please let me know). Where the name pops up repeatedly in close proximity, I try to use phrases like "the organization" and "the group" on second and third mentions. If anybody has better ideas, I'm open to suggestions. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:34, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I see your point re made-up abbrevs, but something needs to be done. It's just too clumsy and tedious to read as it is. I'll have a look tonight. Rumiton (talk) 03:23, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

skin color and skin tone

Is there a difference between color and tone? Rumiton (talk) 10:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so, why? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Because we have "skin color and skin tone". There was a previous mention of hair color, so I assumed this should read "hair color and skin tone" or perhaps "skin color and hair tone" but it was reverted back to the above. Rumiton (talk) 03:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

What do you know! It's been like that for at least two years, and you're the first person who's pointed it out.

Looking back, I might have meant was that skin color (white vs. black) and skin tone (light-skinned vs. dark-skinned) were significant to him. I don't think the article really deals with the light/dark issue, so I suppose we could drop either color or tone. Have at it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

With a will! Rumiton (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Needs amplification re "Shabazz" name

The article states in the first sentence that he was also known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz but then never elaborates. When did he take this name? Did he use it in all contexts? Of course, any additional information about its significance and why he used it would be nice, but at a minimum the date should be reported. JamesMLane t c 23:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Those are all good questions, and (as far as I know) there are no simple answers. I agree the article should say more about the name, however, and I'll try to add some in the next few weeks. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:07, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Hits

According to [[3]] this article is currently averaging 9214 looks per day. Take bows, editors. Rumiton (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Untold Truth Behind Malcolm's Mother

They called her crazy for rejecting free pork because she wants to adhere to Seventh Day Adventist dietary restrictions. So whenever the state sent food commodities to her home she would not serve the pork. The state used that against her said that she was not providing her kids with proper nutritional guidelines. So they removed them out of the home and put her in a psych ward. Until she was released to Malcolm and his siblings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.247.186 (talk) 04:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

One of the reasons why (white) people considered Louise Little crazy is that she was a proud Black woman who refused to take orders from the welfare people, including serving her family the pork that was sent to them. But she also had genuine mental health problems. She was committed after she was found walking barefoot in the snow-filled streets with her baby (Robert) clutched to her chest. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

bisexuality

I think his bisexuality should be added to the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/books/malcolm-x-biographer-dies-on-eve-of-publication-of-redefining-work.html?hp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.187.183 (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The article doesn't say Malcolm X was bisexual. It says he engaged in "an early homosexual relationship with a white businessman", and so does our article: "Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money." — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

However, it adds the line "No other biographers have written about such sexual encounters.[38][39]" The article mentioned above provides a second credible source. That line should now be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.62.134 (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

When the book is published and somebody has a chance to read it, that sentence can be removed. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

While it most likely will be removed, Malik is right. Waiting until the book is actually published won't hurt anything. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

This is controversial, with no concrete evidence, should it not state; "It is thought by some that Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money. This is highly debated ." Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/19/manning_marables_controversial_new_biography_refuels —Preceding unsigned comment added by Withoutillusions (talk • contribs) 02:18, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Democracynow is hardly a reliable source. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Amiri Baraka and Herb Boyd notwithstanding, the information is supported by two biographies of Malcolm X. Marable writes that there is "circumstantial but strong evidence" about one incident. Perry writes of two or three others. There is no need for a disclaimer in the article that this is highly debated. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The article refers to the claims of bisexual behavior as absolute fact, but 'circumstancial evidence' in two biographies is hardly proof. This is especially true when we consider the fact that the sexual allegations do not appear in any of the other dozens of books and articles written about Malcolm X. More importantly, X's own autobiography contradicts one of the alleged incidents of bisexual behavior, which X attributes to his partner-in-crime Rudy. Think of it this way: multiple books about JFK (and RFK) allege that either or both men had affairs with Marilyn Monroe, but we would (rightly) never state those claims as absolute fact in their biographies. As such, the reference to Malcolm X's alleged bisexuality should, at the least, be qualified by the clause 'according to two biographies.' Thus, "According to two biographies, Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money." I plan to make this change shortly, unless anyone has reasonable objections. Dmalveaux (talk) 15:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course his own autobiography contradicts it. Anyone surprised by that, please raise your hand. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

If you're interested, I recommend that you visit a library or a bookstore and read Marable's biography for yourself. On pages 65 and 66, Marable describes Malcolm Little's relationship with William Paul Lennon. "The uncertain particulars of their intimate relationship would generate much controversy and speculation in the years following Malcolm's death." (p. 65) "The Autobiography describes sexual contacts with Lennon, except that Malcolm falsely attributed them to a character named Rudy." (p. 66) "Based on circumstantial but strong evidence, Malcolm was probably describing his own homosexual encounters with Paul Lennon." (p. 66)

In the footnotes, Marable writes: "Bruce Perry's Malcolm asserts that on several occasions in 1944–45 Malcolm engaged in homosexual acts for payment. ... Perry's claims, when published in 1991, generated a firestorm of criticism from those devoted to Malcolm's iconic image, who pointed out that his only credible source for these escapades was "Shorty" Jarvis. ... Since the publication of Perry's book, other evidence has surfaced that supports his general assertions. For example, according to Rodnell Collins, Malcolm revealed details to Ella Collins about "a business deal he and Malcolm Jarvis had with an elderly, wealthy white millionaire, named Paul Lennon, who would pay them to rub powder over his body." See Collins, Seventh Child, p. 76.

Rodnell Collins is (was?) Malcolm X's nephew, the son of his half-sister Ella Collins. Rodnell's book, Seventh Child: A Family Memoir of Malcolm X (1998), says exactly what Marable quotes.

So there are three books, not two, that report the same information. More importantly, there has not been a single post-Perry biography that has challenged the same-sex encounters of Malcolm Little. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:43, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

No one disputes that Marable's biography alleges bisexual behavior. No one disputes that Perry's book also alleges bisexual behavior. Those are two books. As for what you call the third book: Rodnell Collins' claim about X rubbing powder over an elderly man's body (which, again, X attributes to Rudy) does not support this article's relevant sentence, which says "Little had sex with other men." So we're still only looking at two books that claim X had sex with men; two books that support the article's claim. Two books out of the dozens of books and articles that do not mention such a thing. It's also important to note that Malcolm X revealed a host of embarrassing things about his youth in in his autobiography, yet never mentioned any bisexual behavior. Having said that, my point is not that the claims are absolutely untrue (I personally think that they are, at least in part, true). Rather, my point is that the claims have not been proven true to the point that the article should definitively say "Little had sex with other men" as absolute fact. The article loses nothing by adding the qualifier, "According to two biographers..." or some variation thereof. It's a reasonable act of restraint on our part to include such a qualifier. We would, and do, extend the same courtesy to other leaders, especially those who can no longer speak for themselves. Dmalveaux (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at. Rather than say "two biographers", I would rather say "recent biographies", because (as I mentioned) no post-Perry biography has challenged Little's same-sex encounters. What do you think? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:26, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

"Recent biographies" sounds good. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

A good and reasonable compromise. Rumiton (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Sounds good. I'll make the change shortly if no one else gets to it. Dmalveaux (talk) 16:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Dgamba, 15 May 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It was later discovered via The Freedom Of Information Act, former Nation Of Islam National Treasurer John Ali, was, and still may be an F.B.I. Agent during his tenure with The Nation Of Islam. A data base search for this agent years later, after the Malcolm X F.B.I. files were released is non-existent.

Dgamba (talk) 21:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Not done no source and specific change CTJF83 21:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 71.102.140.36, 22 August 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Memorials and tributes

Paragraph four (4) second sentence:

Many cities have renamed streets after Malcolm X; in 1987, New York mayor Ed Koch proclaimed Lenox Avenue in Harlem to be Malcolm X Boulevard.[269] The name of Reid Street in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]

Please change to “The name of Reid Avenue in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]"

See Goggle Maps, type in “Reid Avenue, Brooklyn, NY.”

71.102.140.36 (talk) 04:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

That's original research, not reported in a reliable source

Not done Chzz ► 05:09, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

While Google Maps is not a reliable source, I think you're right. I will review sources other than Rickford's biography of Betty Shabazz (footnote 270) to see whether they mention the name change and say "Reid Avenue" instead of "Reid Street". Thank you for pointing out this error. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Malcolm X project at Columbia U. site

There are now two of them. The one currently in "External links", www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/mxp/index.html, and this one: mxp.manningmarable.com. Which one should be regarded as "correct"? The second one seems to be more recent. Prescottbush (talk) 03:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I stumbled across the second site a few months ago and lost the URL. It's definitely a newer version of the website. Would you like to update the External link in the article? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. The link was in the acknowledgments section of Marable's book. Prescottbush (talk) 15:20, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Daughter

The name of the first daughter, Atallah, is not derived from the name Atillah the Hun, who was neither black nor shared the Islamic faith, thus making it unlikely that Malcolm X, who was so careful about names, would name his first daughter thus. The name Atallah , in Arabic, means "gift from God", and is a common name for Muslim/Arab children. Please make the appropriate note of this in your page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.149.170 (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Attallah may have that meaning in Arabic, but according to Malcolm X himself (in The Autobiography of Malcolm X), she was named for Attila the Hun. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

It might still be good to note the difference. Attallah is a common name in the Middle East and it would be weird if everyone went away accidentally thinking all those people were named after Attilah the Hun.41.199.150.25 (talk) 10:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I found an interview in which Attallah Shabazz says her name was based on the Arabic "gift of God" and not after Atilla. I'll add that to the article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:43, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Other names

"Detroit Red" redirects to this article without explaining what that means or why. This article does not mention his other names used. There should be a place in this article for those other names, which are should be easy to find reference for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.219.32 (talk) 08:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the omission of Detroit Red. I think the article mentions Malcolm X's other names in historical context. If you think of anything else that's missing, please post it. Thanks. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request 6 October 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Paragraph two (2) of main article, two (2) typographical errors corrections in bold Two (2) grammatical errors (striking the comma after hospital; instead, place the comma in the same sentence after "thirteen", e.g. When he was thirteen, his mother...). Typographical orrections as follows:

Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing (entering).

Therefore, to change X to Y, Here is X:

Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. hen he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing.

Change it to Y:

Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen, his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entering.

David Jerrard Givens (talk) 02:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the problems. I just fixed them. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:01, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Either way is that detail necessary in an Article about Malcolm?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 19:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

value of life insurance policy

I think the part where the value of the life insurance policy is stated and then given a value in 2010 dollars would qualify as original research. The value either needs to be verified or that sectioned removed. Also as Value of money is ambigious, there are at least ten different ways to determine value in the past compared to present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.141.193.128 (talk) 17:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree with you, but the source cited, Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention by Manning Marable, specifically says $1,000 was "the equivalent of about $15,000 in 2010" (p. 32). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik Shabazz (talk • contribs) 17:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, now I am confused to do we use that template formatnum or no? I put it in a bunch of articles. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with formatnum, and it isn't clear to me what it has to do with the value of money in the past. If it's working for you, don't change it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Where are his papers?

I do not see if their are any surviving papers of him or where they are. From here, Harlem Center’s Director to Retire in Early 2011 can I edit the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture to say that it has all of his papers? It's unclear to me. If Schomburg does have all his papers, then why is it not in the article, or did I miss it? 66.234.33.8 (talk) 11:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Malcolm X Papers, Contested Malcolm X papers go to NY Public Library, Malcolm X Trove to Schomburg Center. It looks like the papers are in the Schomburg. If it is true, then I am requesting an edit be placed in the article to indicate that. Thanks 66.234.33.8 (talk) 11:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

If this article does not account for where his papers are store, then the only conclusion I can draw is that his papers are not notable and then I have to delete any reference to them in the Schomburg Center article. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no need to be in a rush and you should not hastily conclude that his papers are not notable. Why would you think you need to delete mention of his papers in one article just because they are not yet mentioned in his biography? I have not yet had the time to look into the matter, but you could add the content yourself if you have researched it and can add solid references to reliable sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Cool; it's on the backburner. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I have just taken a look at my copy of Manning Marable's monumental biography Malcolm X: a life of reinvention published last year in 2011. In his bibliography section on page 564, Marable refers to the Malcolm X Collection at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture as one of the sources he used in writing his biography. The other significant academic collection of Malcolm X documents is housed at Emory University in Atlanta. Of course, there are many other archives that contain some documents related to Malcolm X, but these seem to be the two archives devoted to collecting primary documents about Malcolm's life and work. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Since Malcolm X is most widely known for his autobiography and his speeches, I didn't think a discussion of his papers was significant for this article. That doesn't mean they're not a significant holding at the Schomburg, or that acquiring them wasn't a coup for Howard Dodson (the library's director).

If other editors feel we should mention his papers in this article, I'm not opposed it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess there need's to be an author that writes the collection, itself, is notable. We already know the part that was initially misappropriated was appraised at $500k. Then his daughters donated more. I got what I want. I'll go look at p. 564 of Maltby's book and now, even better, I know I have to look at biographies of people that donated papers to the Schomburg. Although, I do bring in E. J. Josey who discusses the collection and he is extremely powerful. I probably need to get rid of the NY Times and LA Times as citation; they're too weak. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 10:22, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a confusion here about requirements for an article's topic (which must be notable) and the various bits of information that make up an article's content (content need not be notable -- again, only the article's topic need be notable). See WP:NNC. EEng (talk) 10:07, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so you are saying that if some dude says something is historically important, as editors we can deprecate it and then omit that fact from the article. Although, if "Malcolm X found a cure for cancer", then we would have to include that cause it's absurd not to. Right? 66.234.33.8 (talk) 10:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't say whether what you're saying is what I'm saying, because I can't understand what you're saying, dude. But I do know what I'm saying. I'm saying that the link I supplied discusses the common misconception that article content (as opposed to topic) must be notable. EEng (talk) 04:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Let me rephrase. If this article does not mention his papers, then that gives me prima facia evidence his papers are worthless. As far as "content need not be notable", as you point out, that's fine. As an editor, I just do not think it makes sense to include not "notable", worthless, garbage information in the Schomburg article. I think a full and fair evaluation of his papers, which is part of his legacy, is important. I am very sorry, but sometimes the WP: pages are difficult to comprehend. I don't have a law degree. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of whether this article mentions Malcolm X's papers, they may be notable to an article about the Schomburg Center. An analogy: A forward pass may not be important enough to mention in a quarterback's biography, but it would be very important to discuss it in an article about the football game. In any event, we seem to be in agreement (see below) that Malcolm X's papers should be mentioned in this article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll see what Josey says about the notability of the other archives mentioned here. If he does not mention them or deprecates them, then that's a problem. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 14:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, the only things in that archive might be a set of postcards signed Happy Birthday, so...66.234.33.8 (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not attached to this article and I am sure that a popular view of Malcolm is extremely important. But Josey is world-class. I don't know if he had a chance to review the archives because they are so hot off the press, but I really feel no love for any of the authors used in this article, as compared to Josey. I am prejudiced to believe that Josey knocks the socks off every author used in this article. Sorry, but he's only been involved in librarianship for 50 years. The dude is a certifiable powerhouse. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am a relative newcomer to this article, but I will say that I favor a brief description of the institutions holding his papers in this article which is his biography. More lengthy descriptions of the Malcolm X holdings in the articles about those academic institutions would be appropriate, I think. I do not understand why we should deprecate a certain source (Manning Marable or whoever]] because one editor feels "no love" for that source as opposed to lots of love for Josey, unless that lack of love is based on something really solid in more reliable sources. I also don't see the need to "get rid of" the New York Times source that describes the unusual provenance of this trove of papers in fair detail - I think that is a wonderful source for understanding the unique history of this particular archive. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 2:15 am, Today (UTC−5)

I drafted a short discussion of the papers here. Please feel free to edit as you'd like or comment here. Thanks. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

You guys might get mad at me, but the Schomburg Center is really extremely important. Whomever did the Infobox on libraries, they did it wrong. I really only have, prolly, 4 things to include in the collection. Phillis Wheatley is immortal. Ralph Bunche won the Nobel Peace Prize. So that only leaves 2 spots. I have a problem with even finding out who was the first director of Schomburg, so I hope that you guys can figure out the historical significance of his papers. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

"Recording found" section

A new section, "Recording found", was added to the article this week. While the new recording has been in the news recently, I'm not sure it merits mention in the article. It seems like an instance of WP:Recentism and undue weight. What do other editors think? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

White foster parents

Sorry guys, I know I'm doing this wrong, but I noticed that in the first section (Early Life), that it says Malcolm lived with a series of white foster parents. He lived in a detention home in Mason, Michigan, which did have white people in charge, but later was taken in by an African-American family before moving to Roxbury with Ella. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.192.26 (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

No need to apologize; you did it exactly right. With respect to the race of the foster parents, I'll double-check the sources to see what they say. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You're right—the last family Malcolm Little stayed with, the Lyonses, were African-American. I'll fix the article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)