Talk:List of Christian metal artists/Archive 2

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Attack Attack!

Wheres Attack Attack!? They have christian lyrics!! They should be here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.252.148.142 (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Attack Attack! do not consider themselves to be a Christian band. If you can find a source that says they are, feel free to add it to their article and then add them back here. Adding and removing the band has gone back-and-forth for a while. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with that guy up top. Their lyrics sometimes have deep scriptural meanings even though theyre not considered christian. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Glad you agree with anon. If you want to get the editors of the band's article to change their position on this, it would make perfect sense to add them to this list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

But lots of other bands on this list dont consider themselves christian. Ar they considered christian bcause they say they are or by lyrical content? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.32.16 (talk) 23:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Usually the former, but also based on reviews from Christian media. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Their Itunes bio says they follow "strict christian principals." Does that count as a reasonable argument?DCcomicslover (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover

It's customary for every response to be indented by another set of colons.

I can't access their iTunes bio. The store is giving an error. I don't know if a retail store qualifies as a reliable source. I think they and Amazon may only be used to verify that a song appears on an album, but not for any other facts. If iTunes listed them in their Christian music store, it might be more compelling. I would rather see a reviewer or interview declare the band is a Christian band. I can't speak for other editors, particularly the ones who keep removing them from the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC

I think that the iTunes info comes from Allmusic, as the "strict Christian principles" is in the AllMusic bio. Most of iTunes' info on artists comes from AllMusic, and it usually attributes it to Allmusic. And if iTunes attributes it to Allmusic, it means that you can search the AMG database and the artist will be there and you can get the info direct, instead of using a retail store.--3family6 (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

But theyre lyrics are christian.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.252.4.9 (talk) 2010-11-13T11:46:25

Are they? Do you have a reference for that? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Their article says that the band has christian based lyrics DCcomicslover (talk) 14:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover

We are not to rely on Wikipedia alone for references. Their article also says that they don't want to be labelled a Christian band: "not all members of Attack Attack! follow the religion. As such, they do not consider themselves a Christian band.". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Even if they don't consider themselves christian what about their lyrics? That guy a comment or 2 up had a good point DCcomicslover (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Chris True of Allmusic says quote: "the Ohio-based Attack Attack! was a screamo/metalcore outfit that held true to a strict set of Christian beliefs." I am pretty sure warrants inclusion, but I felt that I should ask here first.--3family6 (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey I've been trying to get them on forever! Fine by me. But you might want to alphabetize it. t comes before u. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Thanks, fixed.--3family6 (talk) 02:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

There was a whole debate about them on the forums over at Jesus Freak Hideout. This, from a moderator there, was pretty much the end of it. Simply put, Christian lyrics but not embraced by Christians, so not a Christian band. Please remove them. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Nice research! That reference should good for starting a consensus discussion as to whether they should be removed.--3family6 (talk) 00:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting research. Fan forums are not WP:RS, although good to know. I don't think the band is a Christian band, but am I a [WP:RS]]? I know I'm not WP:V. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Fan forums may not be reliable, but given that it's the moderator denying that they are a Christian band, it could at least be a source that they are not accepted by Christians, which would put their status as a "Christian band" in question. Also, the post I linked to mentioned some Youtube panels or something like that - maybe I could try and turn up some of those. Admittedly, though, I probably should have gotten consensus here before removing them. Let me know if you think I should put them back.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 04:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:49, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

As the source is a moderator, it might count as reliable, if the identity and/or expertise of the moderator can be determined. Judging from the nature of the post, it might be John DiBiase or a knowledgeable staff member. However, the site requires registration in order to view the profile, so at this point I can't tell. I might sign up so I can verify, but at this point leave the band on the list unless a more valid source is found or the validity of this one can be determined.--3family6 (talk) 13:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

This might end the discussion: Here's an interview with the current guitarist, Andrew Whiting, where he says right at the beginning that the Christian-based lyrics were written by Johnny [Franck, their former guitarist and clean vocalist], and that he himself is not a Christian and that the band isn't either. Also, a song on their newest album is called "Sexual Man Chocolate." This may not end the discussion, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 03:08, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

That is a very good link. It may not end the discussion though, as while working on the Crunkcore page I accidentally found another mention of them being called Christian: [1] I personally do not think the band is Christian, for the reasons given above, but my opinion is not reliable.

Is the single reviewer's opinion a reliable source? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What reviewer? Neither the allmusic or Phoenix articles are reviews, so that might be where I am confused. But both sources are about as reliable as you can get.--3family6 (talk) 22:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

So, this appears to be the breakdown (no pun intended!) of the argument for Attack Attack!. We have two reliable sources for Attack Attack! being Christian, but we have two sources for the band saying that they are not Christian, and a source with undetermined reliability for them not being Christian. Also, at least one of the former member (Johnny) professes to be Christian, and another former member, Austin Carlile, might be as well (his wiki page sources his beliefs to his Myspace account, which can only be accessed by friends). Right now, the band should stay, but if the reliability of the JFH post can be determined, removal might be warranted because of controversy.--3family6 (talk) 00:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm a member on those forums (not a Christian, just like the music) and I copied this directly from that moderator's page:

Member Profile: JfHadmin Active Stats

Avatar

Username: JfHadmin

Group: Administrator Administrator

Account Status: Active

Online Status: Offline

Joined: Oct-01-2003 at 4:55pm

Last Visit: Feb-07-2011 at 11:14am

Posts: 1021 [0.38 posts per day]

Find Posts: Search for other posts by JfHadmin

Information Communicate

Real Name: John

Date of Birth: Apr-27-1980

Age: 30

Location: Not Given

Homepage: Homepage

Occupation: JfH President, Editor, Writer

Interests: Not Given

Email Address: john@jesusfreakhideout.com

MSN Messenger: Not Given

AIM Address: AIM Address

Yahoo Messenger: Not Given

ICQ Number: Not Given

Skype Name: Not Given

Signature

John of JfH

http://www.Jesusfreakhideout.com

http://www.JohnDiBiase.com

http://www.littleJesusFreaks.com

Also, it's worth noting that the two members who are supposedly Christian (Johnny and Austin) are no longer in the band. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 01:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Good research. I think that is sufficient to cast enough doubt to warrant removal. But we should wait for some others (namely Walter) to step in here and discuss.--3family6 (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

No opinion on Attack Attack!. I would have said something when I was indenting/formatting. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

But to be on this list they only need to have Played christian music at one point in their careers. Which they did. Which warrents inclusion.DCcomicslover (talk) 04:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

That's still up for debate. They played music with Christian themes but that's not Christian music. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I second Walter. Trouble is considered Christian by some sources, but is considered secular both by the band themselves and other sources. In the case with Attack Attack!, we have a reliable biography and a reliable mention which both call them Christian, but we have learned from the band that both members who at least profess Christianity have left, and (much more importantly) we have a statement by Christian music expert John DiBiase saying that they are not Christian (it is a forum post, but that's pretty much the same as a blog, which is perfectly acceptable if the poster is an expert). The key thing to remember here is this statement in the lead: "Some bands might not be listed because of a disputed status as a 'Christian band.'"--3family6 (talk) 13:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Well Im up for whatever is bst for the page and the project. If that is the consensus Ill let It lie. For now at least. DCcomicslover (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Ref format

Just so I don't always wind up doing this (and to make it easier for me when I do it), here is the format for internet references:
<ref>{{cite web |url= |title= |author= |date= |work= |publisher= |accessdate=December 24, 2024}}</ref>
Just fill in each parameter that applies. If a ref if used more than once, give it a name and use only the name in subsequent uses.--3family6 (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you Walter for formatting the above correctly.--3family6 (talk) 14:22, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh but you're so good at it.... Just kidding. Alright I'll be sure to try to follow this in the future DCcomicslover (talk) 19:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Hows that look? DCcomicslover (talk) 20:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Skillet article genres

The Skillet article needs some genre attention. Could one of you please come-up with some WP:RS (please avoid Cross Rhythms as they'll probably list them as disco or inspirational or something silly like that :) ) for genres? I suspect that they could also be used here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Are these enough? Note: I did include a few Cross Rhythms reviews at the end, but don't worry, nothing controversial :) --3family6 (talk) 21:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

http://allmusic.com/artist/skillet-p194866/biography | http://allmusic.com/album/invincible-r461775 | http://allmusic.com/album/alien-youth-r547785 | http://allmusic.com/album/collide-r667946 | http://allmusic.com/album/ardent-worship-skillet-live-bonus-material-r534941 | http://allmusic.com/album/comatose-r858130 | http://www.tollbooth.org/2001/reviews/skillet.html | http://www.tollbooth.org/2006/reviews/skillet.html | http://christianmusic.about.com/od/upcomingreleases/a/skilletcomaUCR.htm | http://christianmusic.about.com/od/cdreviewssz/fr/skilletawake.htm | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/HeyYouILoveYourSoul.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Invincible.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/AlienYouth.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Collide.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Comatose.asp | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Collide/8843/ | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Hey_You_I_Love_Your_Soul/3638/ | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Skillet/5467/

Wow! I just looked at the Skillet article, and I can see why sources are needed. Where are all those metal genres coming from? That was the clincher for me to put up a dubious tag on the ref I found that includes Skillet on the list. Its a single source for a single album, which I'm not sure is enough to grant them a listing here. It calls them "melodic metal" anyway, none of the stuff on their page.--3family6 (talk) 21:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

OK. We need to come to consensus on this quickly. The anon came back and an admin kindly locked the page to avoid further changes, but it's only locked for a week. I suspect that we can come to consensus by Monday. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I know that at least one recent press release from the band refers to themselves as "alternative rockers" when I have more time I'll try to hunt down the refferance. The genres symphonic rock, hard rock and Alternative rock would seem to cover the groups most recent albums the best however with a band like Skillet just about every album covers a new genre. It's very hard to declare them one genre, so perhaps calling them a "Christian rock" band would be best due to it's ambiguity.(116Rebel (talk) 06:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)).

First, let me say that the genre list on the article was reached by consensus of several editors just before Comatose was released. Not all have agreed with the decision, but neither side really offered refs. There should have been refs and I'm glad we're finally getting some.

Good sources

• http://christianmusic.about.com/od/upcomingreleases/a/skilletcomaUCR.htm Comatose review: "Mixing classic rock, old school progressive rock, modern alternative riffs and touches of classical strings",
• http://christianmusic.about.com/od/cdreviewssz/fr/skilletawake.htm Awake review: "hard-rockin', power-punchin' delivery", "Style: Rock"
• http://www.hmmagazine.com/2011/01/skillet-single-1-5-million-digi-downloads/ "Atlantic/Ardent/INO rockers SKILLET", "third consecutive mainstream Active Rock single", "both the mainstream Top Alternative Rock and Top Christian Billboard Year End charts", "MEDIABASE listed Skillet as the 8th most played Active Rock artist of the year, with “Monster” being the 11th most played Active Rock song of the year.",
• http://www.hmmagazine.com/2010/11/skillet-still-burning-up-charts/ "top 5 Active Mainstream Rock single, “Monster” was also a hit Christian rock single", "single from AWAKE with “Forgiven” on Christian CHR and Rock"
  • More of the same; Active Rock, Rock, Christian Rock, Hard Rock, Christian CHR (Contemporary Hit Radio), In short, HM magazine is one of the best sources, but the material is so plentiful, it's hard to wade through.

Mediocre sources

• http://allmusic.com/artist/skillet-p194866/biography "Alternative CCM rockers" Genre list for all of All Music: Alternative CCM, Contemporary Christian, Christian Rock, Gospel, Post-Grunge
  • http://allmusic.com/album/ardent-worship-skillet-live-bonus-material-r534941 Ardent Worship: Skillet Live review: "Alternative and Christian rock band"
  • http://allmusic.com/album/invincible-r461775 Invincible review: "melodic alternative-rock sound"
  • http://allmusic.com/album/alien-youth-r547785 Alien Youth review: "progressive Christian music", "heavy, distorted guitars drive the tune into an alternative peak"
  • http://allmusic.com/album/collide-r667946 Collide review: "much more aggressive sound", "Songs ... of unadulterated rock bliss",
  • http://allmusic.com/album/comatose-r858130 Comatose review: no mention of style or genre.

• http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Collide/8843/ Collide review: "STYLE: Rock", "Christian rock", "The rock factor remains, and has indeed been turned up several notches", "the keyboard-led rock of the previous album has been replaced by a thoroughly gritty, yet still melodic, hard rock sound, perhaps comparable to Chevelle or Tool", "Skillet are still in the business of producing hard rock anthems",
• http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Awake/82480/ Awake review: "string arrangements counter-pointing all those biting guitars on some tracks",
• There are several other reviews by Cross Rhythms. I didn't bother to read them all.

• http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/HeyYouILoveYourSoul.asp Het You review: "1996 ... grunge-influenced self-titled album", "Skillet mixes rock with electronic elements for a unique industrial feel", "hybrid of Audio Adrenaline [rock band] and Code of Ethics [keyboard-driven pop]", "there is a hint of Nine Inch Nails"
• http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Invincible.asp Invincible review: "When the band altered their hard rock sound from the first album to include a more electronic, almost techno-flavored hard rock", "fast-paced pop/rock song", "Invincible seems to rock harder at times than previous efforts"
• http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/AlienYouth.asp Alien Youth review: "Skillet went into the studio with the goals of making this their most aggressive and passionate record yet", "one of the best modern worship acts around. While rocking their hardest", "'Kill Me Heal Me' is a heavy crunchy guitar-laden industrial rocker", "'Thirst is Taking Over' rock ballad", "leading bands in Christian rock today. Their electronic/industrial hard rock"
• http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Collide.asp Collide review: "Skillet began in 1996 with a powerful garage rock sound" (first review from the same review said it was grunge), "soon forsook their raw rock sound for an electronic-fueled modern rock", "influences from today's mainstream modern rock scene", "Skillet's debut was often compared to Nirvana or Bush", "later work was oftentimes compared to Marilyn Manson", "replaced instead by a raw, more aggressive straight-up rock sound", "Collide takes the rock quartet to another level with an album that can truthfully be regarded as one of the best rock albums"
• http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Comatose.asp Comatose review: "Comatose, their latest rock production", "since their 1996 grunge rock self-titled debut" (so he's back to calling it grunge!), "Comatose opens with a burst of string-laced hard rock", "driving rock track", "hard-driven worshipful track", "proceeds to venture into more pop-driven rock", "The near pop-punk sentiment of 'Those Nights'" (notice that it's near - 3family6!), "this particular rock quartet, the song soars to heights one might find in a soft rock radio hit", "pop-laced hard rock track", "the more raw rock stylings of their previous effort"

I want you to know that for that last one I already saw that reference but I dislike GENRE WARRIORS and agree that it is not enough :)--3family6 (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Bad/unreliable sources

• http://www.tollbooth.org/2001/reviews/skillet.html Alien Youth review (appear to be user reviewed and therefore not WP:RS): "in the fall of 1996, Skillet quickly became a Christian rock favorite with their edgy hard rock sound.", "The new sound wasn't necessarily rock or industrial or techno", "The electronic influence is still just as obvious as on Invincible, but now the band has rekindled the heaviness found on the original debut", "At this point, Skillet's sound can be considered to be industrial."; "Skillet once again returns to its rock roots while still maintaining the more electronically modified elements", "marriage between the harder elements and the more trendy dance vibe"; "Skillet rocks hard with their latest album Alien Youth. Produced by vocalist John Cooper, the quartet has delivered a mix of hardcore rock and industrial sounds that comes closer to a live performance than any of their previous offerings.".
• http://www.tollbooth.org/2006/reviews/skillet.html Comatose review (appear to be user reviewed and therefore not WP:RS): "back catalogue [of] garage rock, electronica, industrial, hard-rock, and even a worship album", "[this album is] fusing melodic metal with ccm-style pop", "poorly paced “hard-pop” recording", "somewhat reminiscent of their danceable electronica style from Invincible, but with melodies that have the feel of modern goth/pop/rock artists like Evanescence", "[their ballads are] tiresome, sometimes groan-worthy pop-punk" (pop-punk? who is this Jonathan Avants guy?); "a hard rockin' good time, heavy with synth strings" (they're actually a live string section), "'Rebirthing' ... carries on the heavy, Linkin Park/Evanasence sound", (this reviewer gives the first Skillet album to reach gold a one star rating and continues to refer to the synth strings completely missing the credits: "strings arranged and conducted by Paul Buckmaster" and "additional string arrangements by John L. and Corey Cooper".

My conclusion for genres

Rock, Christian rock, alternative rock, hard rock, industrial music (early), grunge (early).

The currently listed genres of alternative metal, Christian metal, industrial metal, post-grunge, and symphonic metal are not supported. The proposed genres of contemporary Christian, gospel music, and post-grunge are also not supported. Post-grunge is only stated by All Music in their genre cloud but it's not reliable as we know and it's not supported anywhere else although the genre seems to be an amorphous, catch-all genre. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:07, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you'll find Allmusic is the most widely used and most widely considered reliable source on music on wikipedia. Certainly more so than about.com and HMM. So anything they list on the band's page, unless greatly outweighed by other reliable sources, is going in. 86.164.71.55 (talk) 13:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I know how widely AllMusic is used. I don't know if 3family6 or DCcomicslover has commented that it's not as good on Christian music, but it's not. In the case of Skillet, it's the only one that uses the term "alternative". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

AllMusic reviews fit reliability criteria. AllMusic genre tags do not.--3family6 (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow... I miss a lot when i leave town. Whats the big dispute here? I need a fill in. And Yeah Allmusic does suck at genres sometimes DCcomicslover (talk) 03:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Quick history: Anon correctly removed unreferenced genres on article and added different unreferenced genres which is no better. Final edit from anon added the AllMusicref which is, as shown above, not particularly good. The band shouldn't be listed on this metal article and consensus must be achieved to move forward. Notice has been placed on article's talk page. Anon has not come here to discuss. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

You just love stepping in front of the loaded gun don't you? :) Well... I would call Skillet metal but thats my opinion. So were looking for what? A source that calls them metal? Or have we decided they're not? DCcomicslover (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I'm approaching this without assumptions. I'm looking for sources of their genre. WP:RS --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I might regret this... Not sure how reliable this is but try this http://www.bloodygoodhorror.com/bgh/blogs/09/17/2009/skillet-awake-album-review DCcomicslover (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Yeah, feels like a blog. Two "reviews" of Skillet albums on that site, both from the same person. Can't see what else the author has written without creating an account. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Screw that I think it's a blog. This isn't though http://www.enotes.com/contemporary-musicians/skillet-biography DCcomicslover (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Quotes from that source, which I would call good, are

"resembles [[has the appearance of] a heavy metal band, but promotes a Christian message. The band, which has been compared to Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson, 'rocks pretty hard compared to the average Christian radio band,'".

"Since its beginnings in 1996, Skillet has played in a variety of styles, ranging from the modern rock of their self-titled debut album, to the electronic style of Hey You I Love Your Soul, to reverent prayer on Ardent Worship, and industrial grunge on Alien Youth."

Conclusion: still not metal. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Picky picky picky.... ok Ill keep working. I found a souce that Wikipedia wont let me post. Something about spam. Know how i can temporarily allow that? DCcomicslover (talk) 20:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

If the filter won't let you post it, it's not a permitted source, but yeah. You just have to post it with a bit of trickery. en.wikipedia.org might work. Not including the http:// might help as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

hubpages.com/hub/Skillet DCcomicslover (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I can see why Wikipedia doesn't allow that source: pages are used-created.

"One of the more popular Christian rock bands", "unique style that ranges from grunge to nu metal and electro- industrial to alternative rock. You may even pick out a little goth metal.". Don't know if we could use it as a reference though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm.... So something else... Ill work on it. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover Its Called metal and rock here... http://www.rockeyez.com/reviews/cd/skillet/rev-comatose.html 21:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover — Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs)

It seems to be a user forum and so not WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... totally off subject but would this be an RS? http://www.firestreamvault.com/ DCcomicslover (talk) 17:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Personal web site (where I go to get album covers for ripped discs that iTunes doesn't have covers) but not as a WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Personally I agree on Allmusic: they suck immensely, and not just on Christian music, on many kinds. But unfortunately it -is- considered one of the most reliable sources on wikipedia for music genres. Looking at both it and the other sources, I'd go with Christian rock and/or contemporary Christian, hard rock, and one of alternative rock/grunge/post-grunge (all of which get mentioned and are related to one another anyway). 87.194.171.224 (talk) 11:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Got a source that calls the hard rock with a dose of good old fashioned metal! http://www.thefish.com/music/interviews/11617888/Collision-Course/ DCcomicslover (talk) 15:58, 23 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I don't think that Allmusic is very reliable for genres, especially anyone in the Christian genres. It lists nearly all Christian genres as being Gospel. Speaking in generalities, the answer definitely needs to include a minimum of some type of mainstream rock (or metal) because of documented charted hits, Christian rock (or metal), and Christian Hit Radio (aka Contemporary Christian Music). I documented that "The Last Night (song)" was the most played song on that Christian CHR format in 2007 from R&R (magazine) which got data from ACNielsen http://web.archive.org/web/20080530004107/http://www.radioandrecords.com/Formats/Charts/YearEnd/07/Christian_CHR_songs.asp . I'm surprised to see Jesus Freak Hideout only in the mediocre category, I can't think of anything more reliable than it for Christian music. I'm also surprised to see about.com in a good sources section. I have rarely even consider them as a source since it doesn't seem reliable. I'm surprised to read that there's editorial oversight by the NY Times. Royalbroil 04:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

AllMusic tags range from excellent to complete junk, and unlike reviews are not traceable to a writer. Past discussions consider them unreliable.--3family6 (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I should explain what got links into the three categories. The good sources had a clear reviewer and contained adjectives that clearly described the subject. They also tended to be general articles. Mediocre articles tended to be album-specific and didn't offer any specific genre information. They also didn't have a specific reviewer. The bad ones are obvious: they were not reliable sources because they were blogs or user-created sites. I wouldn't use the bad sources at all and I tried to balance the others. Can we either come up with additional sources or come to conclusion on the suggested genres? The block will end on the article in a few days. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

My conclusion for genres: Christian Metal, hard rock, grunge (early). I keep seeing a lot of articles talking about their early stuff which I havent heard and calling it Grunge. Havent heard any of it so can't judge. The Hard Rock is a given. And the Christian Metal is a personal opinion, but We do have I think 2 RS that claim it.And I think i have posted enough to prove that a lot of people think that as well. And simply saying Christian Metal will take away the "Oh wait, What kind of metal??" factor. Just my opinion. I do enjoy digging for sources though so thanks for the excercise! :) DCcomicslover (talk) 16:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I didn't see two reliable sources that called it Christian Metal. Which two were those? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

http://www.thefish.com/music/interviews/11617888/Collision-Course/ This is one. and the one we have as a source on this page. DCcomicslover (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I hadn't seen the article. But as a source, it's not reliable since it's a copyright violation, as stated at the beginning of the article: "Copyright Christianity Today International". The article appears to be at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/comments/allreviews.html?id=74508 but does not contain the full copy of the text. The text there reads "On earlier albums, Skillet tried everything from grunge to techno to acoustic. But with their latest, Collide, the band has founds its most comfortable sonic zone: hard rock."

So that's one article. Where was the second?

As for emphasizing grunge over industrial, I don't think that's fair since they were industrial for two albums and grunge (late grunge actually) for one. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I havent heard any of their early stuff so.. And does Sputnikmusic count as an RS? DCcomicslover (talk) 20:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover Just in case it does.... http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/34291/Skillet-Collide/ DCcomicslover (talk) 15:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I don't know that it does. It looks like a blog/user review. A response even says "I'm not so sure this is nu-metal". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

This next one is a webzine. Calls them Alternative Metal. http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Skillet-l-en.html DCcomicslover (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Spirit of Metal looks like it's editable by members, and therefore isn't a good source. I really can't see anything convincing for any metal genres to go in. 86.161.107.219 (talk) 15:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The bios might be editable but the article isn't I dont think. DCcomicslover (talk) 18:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover Nope. Genres aren't editable, That makes it a reliable genre source at least. DCcomicslover (talk) 00:03, 27 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

The whole site is unreliable unless you can prove the staff are paid experts. (Don't worry, I had use webzines in the past and have learned my lesson, its an easy mistake.)--3family6 (talk) 02:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Crap.... K i think this is reliable. http://www.metalreview.com/reviews/3109/skillet-comatose DCcomicslover (talk) 15:48, 1 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I've encountered Metal Review before when I was trying to source Kekal's albums, and I've had trouble determining if they're reliable. They look professional, but nothing is said about whether they are paid journalists. I think they're just a high quality webzine, which unfortunately isn't enough to qualify as reliable. It doesn't matter anyway, the review says nothing about Skillet being metal. For the record, I think that Skillet definitely is alternative metal on the newest releases, and use industrial metal on a few older songs, but I can't find sources to back up this statement.--3family6 (talk) 18:04, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I can see that. I was hoping that even with these sources I could at least raise enough doubt to warrent the alternative metal inclusion. I hope I've done that. Did you find anything? DCcomicslover (talk) 18:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover Called metal here.... http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/music/index.ssf/2010/01/shinedown_puddle_of_mudd_and_s.html DCcomicslover (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

That might be reliable, I'm trying to find out what type of site it is.--3family6 (talk) 19:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC) Site looks okay, writer appears professional, I think you finally may have found something.--3family6 (talk) 19:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

POW!!!! And it only took 13 pages of google! DCcomicslover (talk) 19:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

This is what I'll include: Rock, Christian rock, alternative rock, hard rock, Christian metal industrial music (early), grunge (early).

If we feel the need to make changes or add references, we can do it on the article's page rather than here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

What happened

The list used to be nice and clean, and even told you its subgenre (black metal/thrash/etc) But now it's turned into a pile of crap. What happened? Can someone please put the subgenres back on? Also clean the page up a bit? That would really help a lot. -ThatGuyOnTheInternet

What are you talking about? First the older list didn't have any references and it was a problem. Second, the page isn't "dirty" so what's to clean-up? As to restoring genres, I agree that this sort of list wasn't too bad, but it became a source of genre wars and so it somewhat makes sense to remove the genres. I suppose the question is what are you trying to find when you come to the list? If it's to find a band that's the same style as a band you know and like, then the way the current list won't help. If it's to find Christian metal bands, then this will help. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you sooo much for insulting our hard work. Now that I've said that.... I enjoyed the subgenres as well but they were an edit war magnet and adding sources for every subgenre would swell this list to astonishingly obscene proportions. And IDK what kind of clean up might be needed. 3family sourced everything quite well in my opinion DCcomicslover (talk)DCcomicslover

The whole subgenre thing stalled because of the article size problem, as every specific subgenre for every band would have to be sourced (even if we stuck with metal subgenres it would be a mess.) The whole thing stalled because of the article splitting discussion, which never reached a definite conclusion. When the article is finally split I plan to redo the subgenre thing.--3family6 (talk) 00:11, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Article split not resolved? I thought it was resolved as not-workable. I saw a list recently that had no references at all and was impressed that, even though this page takes a long time to load now, has references (or reference needed) for everything. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

It's certainly workable, see List of black metal bands, which is why I thought that it just couldn't be settled on how exactly the list should be split.--3family6 (talk) 00:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

And I thought we were moving the refs to another list like someone suggested though I Cant remember whom DCcomicslover (talk) 00:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

I suggested the sub-page of references to speed the load time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I wish I could remember what article it was that had the references on a sub-page, because it actually seemed to work pretty well. Oh well.--3family6 (talk) 00:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Side projects of Christian metal artists

Okay, here is very complicated and relevant question: What do we do if a side project was created by metal musicians sourced to be Christians, but the project itself is not sourced as Christian metal, as in the case of Austrian Death Machine (which is currently on this list) or Solution .45 (which is currently not on this list)?--3family6 (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Well as for ADM which I am a fan... I think with technically only one member in the band and he being a strong christian I think it would be safe to call them a christian band. Or at least christian in a band. Idk about the other one though. Whats their background? DCcomicslover (talk) 13:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Yes, I know ADM is just one member. To answer your question, Solution .45 (which I just discovered yesterday) is a supergroup with a gazillion bands represented by each member. The chief member of the band, Christian Älvestam, and the band's founder, Jani Stefanovic (who left in early 2010), have been sourced as Christians in a review of Miseration's debut album (Miseration is currently on this list). In addition, Jani Stefanovic is the founder of and currently a member of Divinefire and is a member of Mehida (both of these are on the list), and has been involved with other Christian bands, including a session stint with Crimson Moonlight. Also, former member Mikko Härkin is the founder of Mehida and was a session member of Divinefire (so he'd better be a Christian!). I don't know about the other members, though the drummer is a member of Miseration and Essence of Sorrow (which Jani Stefanovic is in), and the replacement guitarist for Stefanovic is a member of Divinefire.--3family6 (talk) 14:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm... I do love Scar Symmetry maybe Ill check this band out. But anyways I would say that as long as each member of the band play in a christian band and that each band has said that they are christian I wouldnt see a problem with Adding it. DCcomicslover (talk) 14:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Family Force 5

Any suggestions on whether or not they should be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs) 18:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Since when has FF5 been considered metal? They're listed in List of Christian rock bands and their genre would need to be cited, at least in their article, to be added here. I just looked at the article and the genres listed don't match the references so I removed a large number of them there. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but they contain crunkcore elemens. Should that be considered a type of metal? DCcomicslover —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.32.16 (talk) 15:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

A border case at best. They were a dance/pop band earlier. Haven't heard much of them lately. If they are more rock than metal, they should be there. If they're now more metal, they can be in both. BTW: You may want to sign-in when you edit to avoid the 'bot signing them for you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I would define some of their elements as metal. I won't add them if its debatable though. DCcomicslover (talk)DCcomicslover —Preceding undated comment added 19:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC).

I think they have metal elements as well, but the only source I can find for them being metal (other than somewhat unreliable AllMusic tags) is a Cross Rhythms review of Business Up Front..., but that only mentions metal elements for two specific songs, which isn't really enough.--3family6 (talk) 01:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Found a source calling them rap-metal: [2]--3family6 (talk) 03:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Kutless

In light of the discussion on the list of Christian punk bands, I have looked closer at the sources for Kutless as metal, and I don't know if they hold up. They definitely aren't as strong as the "emo" description that is being challenged on the punk list.--3family6 (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree that rock is probably a better label and they're in that list, but they are closer to metal than traditional punk. Don't know about all these hybrids though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

One source calls them flat-out metal, and one identifies them as grunge, which is a punk metal fusion. With those sources, I think they can stay.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 22:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The grunge one is weak because other refs call them "post-grunge" and about.com has one reference that calls them the "lighter side of grunge," but I think two "metal" references in allmusic is enough.--3family6 (talk) 13:55, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Noisecreep

Are they reliable? I was about to add a band source from there but I wasen't sure... Maybe we shoul invent a List Of Reliable Souces for Christian Metal or something... Anyways it here it is. http://www.noisecreep.com/2010/01/13/top-10-christian-metal-bands/ DCcomicslover (talk) 17:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

They're published by AOL, so no problems there, and the content looks like it's done by staff, so I say yes, perfectly acceptable. (I need to use this now!).--3family6 (talk) 17:28, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Staple Source

http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/These5DownFriction.asp Currently we have no source at all for Staple. The problem is that they were never popular enough to get a good following. (Myself excluded) This is a pretty thin Ref but do you think it's better than nothing? DCcomicslover (talk) 02:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

No, because it's a reader review, not a staff review. The yellow stars as opposed to red in the rating are a quick give away.--3family6 (talk) 16:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Found a Cross Rhythms article calling them rock metal. I'll put that in.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I already put it in, haha. Sorry, forgot.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Quick question about MusicMight

I was wondering, are MusicMight bios reliable even if they don't have any contributors listed? I'm asking because I've noticed a number of them used throughout the list and they would really be helpful for the hardcore list I'm working on.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering that myself. I think that the written material is good, but I wouldn't use it as a stand-alone source if there is no contributor listed, but would still be a good supplementary source in that case. I'm not sure about the tags though, given the controversy over Allmusic's use of tags that aren't attributable.--3family6 (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking that since even ones without contributors listed have a copyright notice at the bottom indicating ownership by "Musicdetector Websites", we could look at it like Cross Rhythms news articles, in that we know they belong to CR even if we don't know the specific author. However, a potential issue would be whether the tags and the text are written together, which would indicate the same person who wrote the text wrote the tags. I'm actually thinking of getting an account there myself to find out.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 03:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

That's another thing, I'm not sure how to get an account, because I've tried before and can't find a link. I shot the site an email, and I didn't here anything. In some ways, that ups there credibility, that the average Joe just can't sign on.--3family6 (talk) 11:03, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I actually found a registration form by googling "musicmight register", but I can't seem to figure out how to add an artist. However, I did find this notice, which states "All inclusions are at the complete discretion of the Musicmight admin team." Now, based on the context, they may just be talking about removing offensive material, but it at least indicates that there is editorial oversight, in the sense of someone monitoring inclusions. How reliable this makes the genre tags I don't know, but it's something.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 18:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Miseration removal

Ref reads "rumors that the pair have Christian leanings". I think anon made a good call. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Ehhh Not a big fan of removing the band because you think it doesn't fit. I think its better if we give it a dubious tag and discuss. DCcomicslover (talk) 16:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

The Crimson Armada

The Crimson Armada should be removed from this list. They are listed on Cross Rhythms (without being called Christian), and are called Christian by About.com. However, the About.com review was done about two years ago, and this year the vocalist from the band has made very clear on a tumbler post that although the band members believe in God, not all of them are Christian, and the band does not have a Christian message, just a "religious" one. Because this post comes later than the About.com review, it should negate the statements made by that reviewer.--¿3family6 _contribs 12:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

If we had to remove every band where a member says they are not a "Christian band", a whole bunch of artists would have to be removed from this list (Emery, Flyleaf, and As I Lay Dying come to mind.) As it is, quotes from a band member, no matter how recent, fall under Wikipedia:PRIMARY and are largely invalid. Also, since Cross Rhythms only covers artists they consider "Christian", the very fact that the site is featuring them in an article counts as the site editors claiming the band as Christian. So we have the About.com review, coverage on Cross Rhythms, as well as a profile on Jesus Freak Hideout versus one primary source. I think they merit staying.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 22:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The important difference here is that the band member is claiming that none of the band's lyrics are about Christianity or Jesus. While reliable sources call the band Christian, statements by the band members themselves post-dating the statements by reliable sources say that the band's lyrics have never been about Christianity. To quote the band's songwriter "i write music about God not Jesus. to some people the two are the same. to me they are not." Primary sources are not largely invalid, they just have to be used in a balanced way just as secondary sources need to be. And just because Cross Rhythms lists a group does not make it Christian, for instance this mention of Trouble. My point is that if a third party made a claim about a politician's beliefs, and that politician later claimed through a primary source that statement was false, it would be against Wikipedia's standards to just have the third party mention. Both should be mentioned in that politician's article. In the case of Crimson Armada, their position should be noted on their article, but unless we annotate the list, just simply listing the band is too one-sided.--¿3family6 _contribs 01:58, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Bands say a lot of things about their music. Should we remove Switchfoot from the Christian rock list because of their claims? Perhaps a more neutral ground would be distribution (do they have distribution to Christian retailers?) airplay (do they get airplay on Christian stations?) and reviews (are they reviewed in Christian publications?). I agree with the points you're both making even though they contradict. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Heres an RS that says they are... http://www.metalunderground.com/reviews/details.cfm?releaseid=3119 and here they are said to have christian elements and are ALMOSt called christian [http://thrashmag.com/reviews/content.aspx?id=5692 DCcomicslover (talk) 16:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover

Metalunderground isn't reliable. Thrashmag is. But the question isn't whether their are reliable sources, as there already was one. The question is whether a band members statements about the lyrics and some of the beliefs of the band members overrides third-party coverage.--¿3family6 _contribs 22:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. MewithoutYou has said they're not a Christian band. Switchfoot as well. Many others don't want the label. We can't use the primary source to determine something like this. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI - Cross Rhythms took down the news article. They no longer have any info on The Crimson Armada.--¿3family6 _contribs 20:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Blogs as references

Not sure that WP:RS would approve. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Which listings cite blogs?--¿3family6 _contribs 17:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

In reference to Callisto: http://scratchthesurface-webzine.blogspot.com/2009/06/callisto-interview-with-markus.html --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What the source is being used for is not the bloggers opinion, but for the statement of the band in the interview.--¿3family6 _contribs 19:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the general Wikipedia policy with blogs is that they are reliable if the poster is reliable (i.e. has been published in an RS, etc. etc.) In the case of an interview, on the one hand it's proof that the band said something whether or not it's reliably published. On the other hand, putting a band on the list implies that the band is Christian (that is, reliably sourced as such), not just that the band considers themselves Christian. In this particular case, I think the blog is okay, but you might want to add this source from CR as well.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The Cross Rhythms source should be very good. With the above interview, I think there is a guideline somewhere, but I can't remember how to find it.--¿3family6 _contribs 21:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Check WP:RS, but it's a all a bit disorganized. Not sure we need the "back-up" source though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought somewhere that there is a guideline dealing specifically with interviews. But in this case it doesn't matter, as the Cross Rhythms source is better.--¿3family6 _contribs 00:40, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Grunge is metal

Okay, so I ended up doing some quick research on grunge due to an edit someone made, and I found out that grunge is a heavy metal fusion with punk, specifically hardcore. This is sourced on the grunge article. So, unless a source states that a band is not metal, or is more of a post-grunge style, it should be safe to assume that a grunge band can be listed here.--¿3family6 _contribs 23:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it was concluded on the hardcore list's talk page (and on grunge's, I think) that hardcore was only an influence rather than a musical or stylistic element. The one source I've seen that claims otherwise, Allmusic's style page for grunge, isn't very reliable due to not being attributed to a specific author. Nevertheless, grunge is a punk/metal fusion, so grunge bands definitely belong here and on the punk list.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

This is in light of a new source that I found: [3] It specifically states that it was the hardcore brand of punk that grunge emerged out of. And it is supported by this source and this one.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Did not know about those sources. Looks like I have quite a bit of moving to the hardcore list to do. More on topic, as stated before, grunge bands most definitely belong here.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 02:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess I should have provided the sources right away. Thanks for making sure I'm not making a mistake (even though I would NEVER do THAT!)--¿3family6 _contribs 12:27, 27 March 2012 (UTC)