Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/O. J. Murdock

O. J. Murdock

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Fails WP:NGRIDIRON and WP:NCOLLATH. Never played a pro game and his college career was not distinguished. Only news coverage WP:ROUTINE. As for his tragic death, WP:NOTNEWS applies....William 22:22, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. ...William 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. ...William 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. ...William 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. ...William 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While no doubt his death has likely sparked interest in the news, I'm finding coverage back to his high school days as a sprinter. It seems he has some significant coverage after all.--Paul McDonald (talk) 01:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I looked at the existing news stories in which he's mentioned and IMHO he simply doesn't meet the notability guidelines per WP:NGRIDIRON (pro football/NFL players), WP:NCOLLATH (college athletes) or high school athletes. Clearly, he's not notable based on his NFL career alone, particularly because he never played in a game. His college career was not distinguished. And although he was a great high school athlete, even being named Male High School Athlete of the Year by the Tampa Tribune in 2005 [1], all the coverage about him was local, which, by rule, must be excluded from consideration when determining notability. If all high school star athletes were by default considered notable, then Wikipedia would continually be adding tens of thousands of articles for all of them. I think perhaps the mere fact that we would stretch to consider Murdock's high school career as a basis for determining notability is the strongest evidence that he is in fact not notable. And it goes without saying, per rule, that the reporting of his unfortunate death, in and of itself, also does not make him notable. I wish he had played in at least one NFL game so that this discussion wouldn't be necessary. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 05:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GNG. As that section of the guideline notes, GNG establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. But unlike 76.189.114.163, I don't think its a problem that he never played an NFL game. I think that it is the combination of his somewhat troubled personal life, his professional-quality athletic career (including the track accomplishments mentioned by Paul McDonald), and his high profile suicide (it made news front-page on cnn.com[2] as opposed to just sportsillustrated.cnn.com) make the subject notable. One admittedly sad way of looking at it is that the suicide clinches notability in the same way that playing in one NFL game would have. 72.244.204.202 (talk) 10:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The guidelines I, and the nominator, referred to are the applicable and vital subsets of WP:GNG that must be looked at when trying to determine notability. Although User 72 believes it is not a problem that Murdock never played in an NFL game, the reality is that it is a big problem. Per guideline 1 of WP:NGGRIDIRON, notability would be established for an NFL player IF the person has "appeared in at least one regular season or post season game." That's a low standard for NFL players, but Murdock still didn't meet it. Most importantly, User 72 has a major flaw in his rationale: He mistakenly believes that notability can be established by combining multiple non-significant (non-notable) events. But the fact is that if none of those events, individually, establishes notability, then they do not establish it when they are combined. Encyclopedically, his troubled life is of no significance in this regard. As the notability guidelines make clear, terms like "professional-quality athletic career" would not be necessary if one were truly notable. In any case, Murdock's track career was amateur. And again, his suicide has absolutely no impact when determining his notability, which needed to be established prior to his death. Therefore, his suicide in no way "clinches," nor even helps to establish, his notability. Each applicable guideline for which his notability is being considered (pro, college and high school athletes) are the only criteria that can be considered. WP:GNG is merely a basic starting point. Murdock was a very good high school and college athlete, but his career in them was simply not distinguished (in an encyclopedic notability sense). --76.189.114.163 (talk) 11:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not playing in the NFL just means that he didn't achieve notability by playing in the NFL. Subjects can earn notability through many other paths, such as WP:ABELINCOLN. I think this subject has done that through WP:GNG.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it can be earned through different paths. But none of Murdock's paths give him notability. He doesn't qualify under the general WP:GNG guidelines or under the more specific guidelines most applicable to him, WP:NGRIDIRON, WP:NCOLLATH or high school athletes. I wish I could vote to keep the article, but I've read everything available on him and he just isn't notable. Based on my research, this is an easy call. But if someone can provide links that establish his notability, I'll be happy to change my vote. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 13:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Reads more like someone needed to write it for their own personal therapy David Unit (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:GNG, and doesn't appear notable via WP:NGRIDIRON either. Tragic, but WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Giant Snowman 10:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning keep per WP:GNG. I can't see how it fails the GNG criteria. 1) sources address the subject directly in detail: The two cited sources at CNN and USA Today do this. These are not trivial mentions; they're directly about the subject of the article. 2) Reliability: these sources are no doubt reliable; they're national news outlets. 3) Sources: The sources are obviously secondary. 4) Independent of the subject: These sources clearly aren't the subject's family, friends or anyone else close to him; they're national news outlets. 5) Presumed: This is where the debate should be...this isn't about GNG, really, but about perhaps what Wikipedia is not. To recap, this fails WP:NGRIDIRON no question and passes WP:GNG up to the fifth criterion. But does it pass WP:NOTMEMORIAL? I'm inclined to say it does, because this is not a memorial in the usual sense. I think because the player was a member of an NFL team at the time of his death, his demise adds to his notability. It may also be premature to delete the article because his notability could be enhanced if it turns out his suicide was in some way related to hits/concussions sustained in football: several recent cases of suicides have highlighted the head trauma that can result from playing the sport, although this player is younger than the others.--Batard0 (talk) 15:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that although he may appear to pass WP:GNG because of the coverage about his suicide, he fails WP:NOTTEMPORARY, which says "if reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual." Sadly, the coverage of his suicide is the only high-profile coverage he's ever had. Before that, he was in fact low-profile and not notable. And to your other point about concussions, Wikipedia doesn't allow keeping an article solely based on pure speculation about a possible future occurrence that might make the topic notable. The topic must CURRENTLY be notable. If this article is deleted, it can always be re-added if notability is later established. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - He has yet to play in a regular season game, so it fails WP:NGRIDIRON. Zappa O Mati 17:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Murdock's death will likely be used as a reference point for future discussions of mental health by the NFL and various pundits/researchers. The reason that he committed suicide is not known at this time but future notability may be established if his death is determined to be the result of depression caused by concussive impacts and is thus used as a building block to new player health programs. At this time his article is not notable as Wikipedia does not serve the purpose of indexing everyone on a professional sports roster but notability could be established in the coming months based on next steps taken by the NFL. Boston2austin (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]