Talk:Keith Richards
Archive 1
Created 27 April 2006 (UTC)
New Edits April 27th
Made some edits to improve readability and comprehensiveness. The article was becoming a little too succinct and seemed drained of specifics, which is what makes most wikipedia articles interesting. The Mr. Anonymous edits are so entropic at times because the writer seems to feel everything should be sparse and short, and general, and rather skeletal, but spineless- if that makes sense. Plus way to much of this "Richards say" "Richards considers" etc. It gets to read like the writer has some sort of special insight into the subject, as if they sit around the dinner table togther and chat. There is not enough context given to what is in the article, and I think people unfamiliar with Richards are being inadequately served. Even with the points Mr. Anonymous makes, there should be more detail, or at least a clarifying, contextualizing sentence or two. Probably others could add more info too, to add vibrancy to the lame, sterile run-through it was becoming. --Mikerussell 06:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Also
I understand that Richards is regarded as this great, realist rocker and the true muscle behind the Stones and is lionized by a certain faction of Stones fans as this down-to-earth hero in contrast to Jagger(although his public persona, if one pays attention, is wildly protean). All of this is justifiable to a certain extent, but I'd just like to point out that I had to edit some totally ridiculous things out of the Mick Jagger page, which is almost completely ignored compared to this page.
Like with Lennon/McCartney, the Jagger/Richards partnership is in danger of being totally misprepresented. The whole idea of the Lennon/McCartney team has been destroyed because of bad writers and moronic critics; Lennon is actually regarded as a saint for being shot after writing "Imagine," while McCartney receives more derision than almost any other celebrity of his influence and stature. There are reasons for this, but people forget that Lennon was not this great saint, but was often pretty vain and mean-spirited; they forget that McCartney held the Beatles togethor and wrote a huge portion of their best stuff.
The same is in danger of happening to Jagger/Richards, even if it hasn't happened completely yet. But so many fans and writers have taken the easy route out of laziness and convenience: Jagger as the cosmopolitan, image-conscious, trendy frontman and Richards as the rebellious realist rocker with integrity. This is a fallacy. Not only is Richards a much more flamboyant, inconsistent (in terms of opinions) and theatrical person in interviews, he was also very involved in all the projects that narrow-minded fans sometimes dismiss as "Jagger projects" (Satanic Majesties, Emotional Rescue, Undercover, Dirty Work, etc.). In fact, if you really want to get down and dirty, the two best-regarded latter-day Stones records--Some Girls and Tattoo You--were "Jagger projects" and the worst-regarded--Dirty Work--was almost totally the work of Richards.
My point is that the Mick Jagger page is treated like trash, while this page is this shrine where obssessive fans bicker over this reverential document of Richards' greatness and incredible down-to-earthedness and "just a regular guy"-ness. Mikerussell nailed it in his descriptions of some of the things people have said on this page. In Jagger page, I actually read this thing where someone said that he is "often accused" of pretending to be a hard-living tough guy while actually being a closeted ugly homosexual who destroyed the Stones (one of the most annoying things people do on wikipedia is use the term "often accused" to talk trash about people they don't like). This is an extreme example, but when you really get down to it, Jagger is as important to the band as Richards and as compelling a public figure and as interesting a celebrity, despite never having been a junkie. In fact, in the Stones latter days, he's clearly more important a figure. In relation to this page--I would hope people contributing to this article would be able to help with the Jagger page without saying stupid things and trying to make it seem like Jagger is an inferior human being. I posted this here because it's a major oversight and I thought the Richards crowd should know. --Dave
With the Stones
Cleaned up the "With the Stones" section. Removed the thing about him playing acoustic guitar at home (this isn't a documentary) and the thing about the fuzz box and the still existing genre of "garage rock"--which is such a vague term as to be meaningless here. I also re-arranged some grammar and stylistic hiccups. I made a concerted effort to keep all of the original ideas there--with the exception of the fuzz box and acoustic guitar sentence, which was inconsequential and incongruous.
- My 2 cents is it better with the specifics you added, and hopefully those edits will stick. I like the stuff about his father and mother too, which was edited out for no good reason IMO. I still wish somebody would find/source the Human Riff nickname and give it a line or two about why/what it is so special to fans.--Mikerussell 22:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Jagger Entry
How Jagger is regarded is for the Jagger entry. I appreciate how you might feel about the irksome trashing a of encylcpedia entry subject. If you look back to the discussions on this entry there were people who tried to insinuate that Richards ripped off open tuning from Ry Cooder, and was active in Brian Jones demise while exploiting him as well. I looked at the Jagger entry and noticed much of the same kind of unsuported and sometimes flat wrong assertions that were was excised from the Richards entry is going on there. Nick Kent did a great apologia of Jagger recently in Mojo, and I would suggest it as a great source. It takes a lot of effort and argueing when dealing with people who have no knack for reasoned dialogue. Good luck.
Some of the recent edits have merit, but I made minor changes to tone some passages to a more measured tone suitable for an enyclopedia entry.
The fuzz on Satisfaction is a major milestone and it is an inspiration for garage, which is - as is the case with any style - difficult to define - but still does exists. That Richards prefers to play accoutic in private says alot about him as a musician. Richards maintains that a guitar player is best judged by his or her accoustic playing. - Herr Anonymous
- saying "it is an inspiration for garage" is vague and will be meaningless to most readers. The Rolling Stones themselves were an influence for "garage rock"--but what do you even mean by garage rock? Define it for me and if you can do it in an intelligent way that relates to this article, then I'll keep that in. People use the term "garage" rock for several different things--they can mean any band that actually is plays in a garage, or it can mean any amateurish rock group, or--most importantly--it can refer to any group of American mid-60s bands signed to small labels with few or no hits who played raw, simple rock--that's the definition rock critics most frequently use; look up the definition garage rock--or go here: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:411 When you say "garage rock" still exists--that means nothing; punk rock still exists, but it's a style of music most often association with the late-70s early 80s. Big band swing still exists, but it's most often associated with the 20s and 30s. Garage rock is a much more vague term than either punk or swing, so saying that garage rock still exists can mean any number of things--what? people still play amateurish rock and roll? people still play rock in their garages? people still play music trying to emulate the original 60s garage rock groups? All technically true, but unless you are specific, it means nothing to readers.
Saying that Richards prefers acoustic guitar in private does not say anything of value about his recorded work or influence or importance as a musician. It doesn't matter what Richards maintains in interviews--as Mikerussell said, this isn't a page where you have private chats with Richards over tea every evening and add his little comments into the mix. When placed next to the very general, basic, essential information in that section, the thing about him playing acoustic guitar was totally minor and unecssary. If you can't see this, read through the whole article at once and you will see that it stands out as a bizarre inclusion. Someone back me up, please.