Talk:Santa Ana winds

Seems to me the link to Santa Ana Winds (the band) needs some disambiguation from the page it's on?

Season

In southern California, Santa Ana winds occur from September until April, with a peak occurrence in November, December and January of more than 3 events/month (Raphael MN, 2003, The Santa Ana winds of California, Earth Interactions 7(8): 1-13). Alanterra (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

On 21 Oct 2004 large section of this article was deleted by 67.171.229.13. I reverted it to the previous version (20:38, 25 Sep 2004). Rsduhamel 07:41, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Adiabatic Warming

The link in the article goes to a different article, which doesn't seem to explain what it is (to me, anyway).

Can someone explain to me how adiabatic warming works in this case? Santa Ana events often have temperature increases of 10–20° C, which corresponds to an altitude loss of 1,500–3,000 m. Yet if the high pressure system is over the Great Basin, average elevation is not really high enough to create this temperature difference (even before allowing for heat loss as the air flows 500+ km). Alanterra (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

We on Wiktionary have done a bit of research. The "Santana" etymology is almost certainly an urban legend. It's much more likely that the original form was "Santa Ana wind" and that "Santana" is a perfectly ordinary contraction. The main holes in the "Santana" story are:

• No one seems to know what native languages were involved.
• Sanatanas does appear to be Spanish, but Satanàs is much more common. Note that it's stressed differently from Santana (but then, buckaroo and vamoose also shifted stress)
• The name Santa Ana goes back centuries in the area, and Santana is a natural contraction of it. It would be surprising if Santa Ana didn't get turned into Santana.
• Checking google and google books, the only hits for "vientos de Sanatanas" are in versions of the "Santana winds" theory. "vientos de Satanàs" also appears very rare. If the Santana theory is correct, you'd expect to find the Spanish phrase from which it was supposed to have been borrowed.
• Checking google books, Santa Ana wind appears in the 1800s, while Santana wind doesn't appear until 1958.

See here for more discussion. -Dmh 16:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a reference for the "Santanas" theory on Google books. I'm a little bit reluctant to reference it directly, as it might give the impression that the "Santanas" theory is correct. As above, it's most likely wrong, but I'm not sure where there's a good source for the "Santa Ana" theory. Right now the text is weasely, but bringing in the arguments above might make the eytmology section disproportionately large. OTOH, the "Santanas" folk etymology is well-known, so perhaps it deserves more discussion than it would otherwise get. -Dmh 07:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The link to the Wiktionary debate does not show anything for Santana. If someone finds the debate, can you please post it here? Thanks. Gigglesworth 20:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

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As a native Angeleno, I can tell you that the winds are univerally spelled "Santa Ana," but are generally pronounced "Santana." I just marked it up to all the other weird pronunciations we have, starting with Sepulveda Blvd. A good way to spot people not from the region. Also, if I remember my Spanish correctly, they don't insert glottal stops between identical adjacent vowels, so the two a's would tend to merge in pronunciation in the native language anyway.

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The unsigned author above believes that Santa Ana is generally pronounced "Santana". As a native Angeleno myself, I can say that during wildfire season, broadcast news reporters consistently pronounce the Spanish name as two distinct words, just as they would for nearby cities Santa Monica or Santa Clarita. I speak Spanish fluently and can add that the word merging that would occur in Spanish would be for the same reason as in English: laziness in pronunciation rather than being an accepted contraction of such words. On the matter of "vientos de Sanatanas", the phrase would leave the Spanish-language reader with the impulse to "correct it" to "vientos de Satanás". It seems incongruous, though, that the early Christian missionaries - that named nearly all Southern California areas - would break from their tradition of honoring saints to name the winds after a daemon. Just a thought. 66.134.232.226 00:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in the San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara regions, within the influence of these winds. Locals and the local meteorologists use both terms, 'Santa Ana' and 'Santana'. I've been a life-long Santanaista, although it's hard to maintain this position considering the evidence presented above. Thanks for the research! Gigglesworth 20:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

As another native Angeleno, growing up in the 1950s, I never heard or saw "Santa Ana" in reference to the wind until I was an adult. To us, it was just "the Santana." In 1957 or 1958 I was given a fire preparedness book (and a junior fire ranger badge!) published by the County of Orange that referred to the wind as "Santana", accompanied by a line drawing of a devil's head blowing. Jim 16:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

As above I grew up in Los Angeles in the 30's and 40's and it was always referred to as the "Santana" winds. I was told that the winds were named thus after General Santana who was known as a particularly nasty man. Often he was called a "devil" and so the winds were also known as the "Devil Winds" or ----Santana winds. I would think that the whole controversy could easily be settled by going into the weather reports of back issues of the LA Times or the Herald Examiner.

Another angeleno born in 1950, I recall the dictionary definition as "santana; an Indian word meaning devil wind; a hot wind off the high desert". In the sixty's it was defined in the dictionary this way, I thought the Santa Ana became a later pronunciation for many of the same reasons listed above. however to me santana was before santa ana pronunciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ridescloud (talk • contribs) 04:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I moved to the high desert (Victorville) in 1969. I was also a wildland firefighter for the state from 1985 to 1991. I had NEVER heard anyone refer to the Santa Ana winds as the 'Santanas' until I heard someone in Denver, Colorado mention it in 2008 !! I thought 'you have no clue what you're talking about!' It seems to me, based on the above entries, Santana Winds or Santanas stopped being used in the 70's. I have discussed this will all the Californians I know and not ONE have ever heard the winds referred to as the Santanas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.169.187 (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Another native of the LA/Orange County area, born in 1952, and my grandparents being original settlers of my hometown, La Habra, we all referred to the winds as Santanas as did everybody we knew. The use of "Santa Ana's" seemed to coincide with the influx of out-of-state newscasters who also had trouble pronouncing place names like Cajon and San Jacinto with the proper Spanish "J." George Fishbeck was a great meteorologist and did not mispronounce the name of the winds, he was using the correct regional, native-born population's name for them. I have written to The Weather Channel about the misuse of the name, "Santa Ana" for the winds and received a reply explaining that the name comes from the Santa Ana river. This is ridiculous, given the actual geographical origins and range of the winds. The town of Santa Ana has absolutely nothing to do with the winds, nor does the Santa Ana River or any other formation with the name "Santa Ana." The winds existed long before the Spaniards came to California and as children, we were taught that the word, "Santana" was an approximation of the name given to the winds by an indigenous California people.Basquettecase (talk) 05:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)basquettecase

I grew up in San Diego County during the 50s and 60s, and I do not believe I ever heard other than the 2 words "Santa Ana"; certainly that was the common and accepted pronunciation. I do recall some ideas floating around that the correct pronunciation of the Mexican General Santa Ana (of Alamo fame) was "Santana", but I do not recall any attempt to link that to the name of the winds. Wschart (talk) 00:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Not a Fohn

A Fohn wind results from precipitation on the windward side of a mountain range which releases latent heat into the atmosphere which is then warmer on the leeward side (e.g. the Chinook or the original Fohn). The Santa Ana winds do not originate in precipitation, but in the bone-dry high deserts. The Santa Ana is actually not a Foehn. It has in common only the adiabatic compressive heating caused when the air descends from the high desert down to sea level. Tmangray (talk) 06:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Appearance of original research in literature

The literature section includes a bullet point stating that "Richard Henry Dana's 1840 journal/book, "Two Years Before the Mast" includes a description of a wind event that can only be categorized as a "Santa Ana." The author never mentions the word "Santa Ana" but his description is unmistakable." This appears to be original research on the part of the editor. No reliable source has been given that draws this conclusion. I will leave this on for a few days per policy with this tag, but unless a citation is given it should be deleted. Alanraywiki (talk) 05:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Problem with the way a line is written.

In the "Similar Winds" section of the description, the second paragraph starts with the line "Winds blowing off the elevated glaciated plateaus of Greenland and Antarctica experience the most extreme form of katabatic wind, of which the Santa Ana is a type, for the most part." The last part of that sentence "...for the most part." is what I feel needs to be cleaned up. It seems to fit into a general pattern of loose scientific sounding facts that are not cited. I did go trough and add several Citation Needed tags as well.

This article is full of information, I think it just needs to be cleaned up.

Indian Summer

The song; "Indian Summer", mentions Santa Ana winds.68.231.189.108 (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

California Gold

The novel; "California Gold"; by John Jakes; copyr. 1989 by Random House; mentions: " Santan winds"--I have never heard of this, I think it is a spelling error for "Santan"; or "Santa Ana", as I always heard it. He mentions "earpiece" when he means "receiver" of a telephone, so it is probably an error..68.231.189.108 (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Geographical sources

On many occasions when we experience elevated temperatures and high north-easterly winds in So. California, the weather reports identify the source as a high pressure system located over the Four Corners region. If memory serves, these also occur most frequently from September through November, although they can happen at any time of year.

Presumably, meteorologists are referring to the Colorado Plateau with this language, and not the Great Basin. The Geography section of the WP Four Corners article notes that the area is "...a center for weather systems, which stabilize on the plateau then proceed eastward through Colorado and into the central states." The high pressure systems that affect So. California also tend to stabilize, and create elevated wind and temperature events that often last 1-3 weeks.

Do meteorologists also regard these as Santa Ana wind events? Are they also drainage winds, coming as they do off of a high plateau? The article does indicate that winds from the Great Basin are also driven by high pressure systems... --96.251.23.32 (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

In terms of the large-scale (synoptic scale) high-pressure systems that cause Santa Anas, the Great Basin and Four Corners aren't that far apart. The inflowing airmass to Southern California will simply have a small difference in angular direction, but as the air compresses and descends the mountain passes, it becomes irrelevant. So, yes. Darkest tree (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Popular Culture section

First, let me say that I wish as much time and effort were devoted to the science and meteorology content of this article as has been devoted to finding obscure mention of the Santa Ana winds in song lyrics and movies. It irks me that every time we have a Santa Ana wind event (you could practically chart them based on dates of edits to this article) people rush here to either vandalize the article or police up all the pop culture content.

That said (rant over), the Santa Ana winds are a major phenomenon in Southern California life. It's about the closest thing we have to major severe weather here. So, as long as we're going to have a list of mentions of Santa Ana winds in pop culture, I don't really think that any mention is too small or too trivial to include. All of this art, music, and movies touch on the Santa Ana winds because they're a big deal to us here. Maybe the MoS says otherwise, in which case I'll defer to whatever consensus emerges regarding this list of trivia, but that's where I stand.

The Raymond Chandler Red Wind quote, in particular, is one of the most famous and widely-recognized descriptions of the Santa Ana winds and definitely is significant enough to merit inclusion in this article. Maybe it even belongs at the top.

Consider this my challenge to the {{trivia}} tag that appeared today. Darkest tree (talk) 22:41, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I saw that user Nikkimaria went through and removed a lot of this material, including the Raymond Chandler quote, as well as the {{trivia}} tag, without any explanation and probably without reading the talk page. I undid the edit. Darkest tree (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Health Effects: Ionic charge in Santa Ana winds?

The claim that Santa Ana winds result in positive ion production and negative mood effects for the affected region currently relies on two citations of newspaper articles, one from 1962 in which the claim is made that uncomfortably warm conditions tend to irritate people, and another largely discussing the potential negative mental health impact of ionic hair dryers on mental health. Neither of these articles provide a mechanism for positive ionisation in Santa Ana winds, or reliably support the claim that any resulting electric field changes have a statistically significant effect on the mental health of an urban population. Regardless, this claim should be removed without support of a relevant published study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.176.3 (talk) 02:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Two reliable sources are referenced. I also mentioned where to find many other places covering this in the news. [1] Google scholar has 141 results [2], some of which might be from notable researchers, I don't know. The news coverage is there though. Dream Focus 04:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Not all of the 141 Google Scholar results are peer-reviewed journal articles, and those that are talk about ionisation that is associated with the Santa Ana winds in different contexts (sand particles on electricity cables, for example). The Google News search that you linked to shows several quite old newspaper articles that mention people's opinions about ions and mood changes, but don't present any evidence. I think this is completely different from if the newspapers were reporting the discovery of evidence, in which case they could be credible sources for the assertion made above. There don't appear to be any sources that show empirical evidence for these winds causing mood changes or that suggest a mechanism by which such a change would work. If this paragraph in the article should stay then I think it should be rephrased to make it clear that this is a perception among some people as yet unverified by evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.65.227 (talk) 07:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The news search link shows 29 results. Most of the results seemed to be hidden behind paywalls. But just looking over the summaries and titles, clearly this gets mentioned in reliable sources. Those are not just opinion pieces. Dream Focus 08:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessarily enough for you to cite articles that you haven't read that merely mention your search terms in an unknown context. Does this constitute evidence in favour of the suggestion (as it is in the current article) that ions (ions of what?) caused (how?) by the Santa Ana winds are associated with mood changes in people? I would argue that it does not, particularly with regard to the advice at Wikipedia:Search_engine_test that "appearance in an index alone is not usually proof of anything". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.186.164 (talk) 11:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many times something appears in a search engine, but instead the content that is appearing and where. You don't have to have free online access to sources to reference them. Dream Focus 11:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Daily News of Los Angeles : SANTA ANAS NOT JUST FIRE HAZARD...‎

$3.50 - Daily News of Los Angeles - Dec 9, 1988 "There are 30 or 35 areas in the world that get Santa Ana winds, ... passages and bombard the body with positive ions that make the skin tingle and itch. ... Santa Ana-Like Wind Said to Carry More Positive Ions Than... ‎

• Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - Oct 25, 1964

-Santa Ana winds that bleach and burn Southern California descend through ... ratio of positive ions to negative ions in the air is greater than normal. ... The Devil Winds Made Me Do It Santa Anas Are Enough to Make... ‎

• Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - Mar 12, 1988

"Negative ions make us feel good, positive ions make us feel badly," [Paul Blair ] said. Add to that the fact that the Santa Ana winds "carry pollen, dust, ... Daily News of Los Angeles : SANTA ANAS: ILL WINDS THAT BLOW... ‎

• $3.50 - Daily News of Los Angeles - Oct 28, 1993

When the hot, dry Santa Ana winds kick up, so do the students at Madison Middle ... of positive ions in the body, complicating its ability to use oxygen. ... THE WEATHER ‎‎

• The Bulletin - Jun 18, 1981

was once told that it's . reduction in the negative ions in the air that does that to people, makes them cranky and strange," said Gloria Ryan, ... A Climate of Fear; California Weather, Dry as Tinder, Poses... ‎

• $3.95 - New York Times - Oct 26, 1965

... September and April because of a regular phenomenon called the Santa: Ana winds. ... Neg-! alive ions are supposed to be soothing to the human organism, ... Gazette, The : Spring winds put many in a long-documented... ‎

• $2.95 - The Gazette - Mar 30, 1999

The positive ions created by the winds may make people more irritable, anxious and aggressive. When Southern California's hot, dry Santa Ana winds blow into ...

There are some examples of what is obvious coverage of this. All behind paywalls unfortunately. Dream Focus 11:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Those were all just newspaper articles, no actual studies. There is an actual study saying that while there is some correlation, the hypothesis that negative ions affect mood fails to meet scientific standards to prove that it is significant.[3] This means the correlation could be due to random chance. This claim should be removed as a relevant study has been unable to verify its veracity. Dragoonies (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

That study is for lasting effects to treat the women with SAD. No one is claiming the effect is permanent. I'll look for actual studies. Surely someone has done some. Just hook an EEG to someone's head and see if their brain activity changes when exposed to a powerful enough source negative ions. Dream Focus 23:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

There was another study done for the same thing which showed that it did help most of those treated with it daily. [4] Once they were no longer taking the daily treatment, most relapsed. Dream Focus 23:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

This study does NOT confirm significant results (p < 0.05). In fact, the study makes no mention of the p value or statistical significance, which is highly unusual in a study such as this. Additionally, no followup studies have been performed by the same researcher. The paper I previously mentioned was the only one to followup on this. It used the same evaluation criteria and the same stimuli. Your criticisms of the study I cited do not address the fact that the statistical correlation found linking changes in mood to ion levels was not large enough to prove it nothing beyond mere coincidence. This is an essential point in science. If it cannot be proven that the correlation is due to something beyond random chance, we cannot make a claim such as the one you are. The language you use for this section makes it sound like it is a fact that ions can affect mood when there is no statistical evidence to support it. You can say there is correlation, as I did in my previous edit, but cannot say there is causation, as you are currently doing.

Also, please stop spamming the citations list with newspaper articles when trying to support a scientific claim. As has been said many times before, this is simply insufficient. There are numerous newspaper articles speculating about the existence of UFO's, does this actually prove the existence of UFO's? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragoonies (talk • contribs) 07:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes on what reliable sources such as major newspapers state, not your interpretation of various studies. See the rules on no original research. Dream Focus 19:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

WP also requests editing with common sense. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Common sense means agreeing with anyone who thinks the way you do, while dismissing everyone else's viewpoint as ridiculous. I don't see how a study done by one person with a small number of people with vague results, somehow invalidates the massive number of sources that say otherwise. Not every single study ever done by anyone is accepted into medical literature. Until a major medical, psychological, or scientific organization accepts the findings, there is no reason to bother with it. Dream Focus 01:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

None of the above referenced newspaper articles is shown to exist anywhere other than as 'reprints' of the alleged articles from which they were derived. There are no records of the original articles anywhere on the internet. If these articles are to be considered legitimate refrences, the original documents need to be shown to actually exist. As it stands, there is no accredited evidence available to suggest that these articles have ever existed as anything other than hearsay on the internet.

Would somebody PLEASE take the unsubstantiated garbage out of this Wikipedia entry!? It's making Santa Ana winds out to be some form of spiritual/mystical occurrence rather than the meteorological phenomenon we all know from VERIFIABLE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.210.213.156 (talk • contribs)

Seriously? The articles exists, on their official websites online, you just have to pay to view the entire thing. Dream Focus 15:54, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, SERIOUSLY. There are no "official website[s] online" hosting parent articles of any of the content contained in your references regarding this topic. It's all complete hogwash (AND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS ARTICLE... AND "DREAM FOCUS"' ACCESS RESTRICTED TO AVOID FURTHER ILLEGITIMATE EDITING OF WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES BY THIS INDIVIDUAL. (HINT, HINT, HINT, SENIOR MODERATORS!)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.201.175.43 (talk) 06:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed your delayed reply and restored the health section. The references are fine. Wikipedia reports what is covered by reliable sources such as newspapers, not what you consider to be the truth. Dream Focus 02:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)