Talk:Burushaski

unsubstantiated editing

I would very much like to see Chashule's work included on the page, there very few people who have put a lot of research into the genetic affiliation of Burushaski this century, and out of all the other theories on this matter, his is the the position with the most evidence provided for it, as the dene-caucasion theory isn't held to be tenable by most linguists. Please include his viewpoint and his evidence and let the reader make an informed decision. I found the article sparse when I read it, and I was disappointed when I couldn't find any updates on his recent work on the language. -August 16th 2012

Kwamigami should be banned from editing this page. He calls Chashule, a respected linguist, a "crackpot" and deletes his work in the bibliography, even though it is published in the most eminent scientific journal. Can someone do something about this? Shqip ----

He *is* a crackpot. Fringe theories may get some mention, but they don't deserve half the biblio. Most linguists think Dene-Caucasian is nonsense, but there are at least a number of linguists working on it. No-one follows Chashule, despite the fact that it would be major news if he were correct, and would be picked up by newspapers and general science journals. The only reason he deserves any mention at all is that he somehow got himself published in a reputable journal. Pick the most representative of his pubs, and stick with that. kwami (talk) 02:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I want somebody to explain to me why kwamigwami keeps on censoring Chashule. Chashule's article is published in The Journal of Indo-European Studies, it's 66 pages long. The journal is considered in the European standard of journals of the top A standard. It is a more recent publication as well. The other erased items are also in reputable world journals like Central Asiatic Journal (published by the Harrasowits publisher) and Acta Orientalia, the organ of the Finnish, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish academies. All of these are of a reputation higher than Lincom publishers and all more recent. To call Chashule a crackpot twice is unacceptable and just shows the level of primitivism of the censoring done by Kwamigwami. In the real world one could be sued for such unsubstantiated claims. So I will put the references back and complain to Wikipedia about the censorship. After all, these are sources, and wikipedia never deletes sources. shqip ---- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.238.146 (talk) 02:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

And I'm deleting again. It's a matter of WP:Weight: Casule vs. everyone else in the world; normally we give the most space to everyone else. Pick a good representative work and use that. Since his latest has been announced on LingList, maybe we'll get a review that we can use for evaluation. If we actually have reputable sources that say he's on to something, great; but we don't parrot claims just because someone got himself published. (Hell, I've gotten myself published, but I don't add that stuff to WP.) kwami (talk) 01:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

relationships

There is now a more recent (2009) book out, by the same author whom others are disputing, and published by Lincom (and announced on [Linguist List]), claiming that Burushaski is Indo-European. I am not qualified to evaluate this work, but the announcement at least has all the right words (systematic phonological correspondences in 500 stems, plus grammatical correspondences). If someone can evaluate this book (or wait until it is reviewed), it should probably be mentioned here, since it seems to be at least a reasonable claim. Mcswell (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd wait for a review. With the announcement in LingistList, hopefully that will happen. (That announcement was made by the publisher, which repeated the author's claims, and has nothing to do with LingList itself.) I find the claim dubious in the extreme: Burushaski has been well described for a century (i.e. Lorimer's 3-vol. tome in the 1930s), and described by linguists involved in the reconstruction of IE. It would be incredible for no-one to have noticed that it's IE. Even long-rangers try to link it up in Dene-Caucasian, not in Nostratic, which is where they put IE. Casule's also made bizarre comments about Paleo-Balkans that appear to be motivated by nationalism rather than science, so his credibility isn't very high. kwami (talk) 01:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no nationalism. Casule talks about fundamental relations with Albanian and Arumanian, yet he is Macedonian. He also looks at Germanic correlations and North-Western Indo-European. He is anything but a nationalist. In his new book the support by the eminent Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp is noted on p. 69, i.e. Hamp "suggests an origin of Proto-Indo-Europeam and Burushaski from a common ancestor". Casule's "credibility" is of the highest order, as witnessed by the eminent journals where his findings have been published. You should read at least some of his articles before judging his scientific integrity. I am sure you haven't even read a page of his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.111.13.200 (talk) 22:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I have included the most authoritative source on Indo-European - burushaski: Čašule, Ilija. 2003b. "Evidence for the Indo-European Laryngeals in Burushaski and Its Genetic Affiliation with Indo-European". Journal of Indoeuropean Studies. 31/1-2 : 21-86. For the Journal of Indo-European studies to give 67 pages to Casule's work is indicative of the high quality. For an Indo-European linguist to have his findings published in JIES is like a scientist being published in NATURE. So don't do editing war. SHQIP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.207.12 (talk) 04:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Hamp's suggestion "an origin of Proto-Indo-Europeam and Burushaski from a common ancestor" is very different from claiming a close relationship between Burushaski and little known PIE daughter languages such as Thracian. I don't see how this could be considered to support Casule's 'theory'.Ko'oy (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I could easily be wrong. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, in this case at the very least a favorable review by an independent respected scholar in the field. Perhaps the latest book will be subject to such a review. kwami (talk) 09:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Chashule's book should be in the references (which it is), but not every single derivative article that he's ever written on the subject. I daresay that all the data in the articles will also be found in the book. Thus, listing all the articles is redundant. Listing all the articles also gives the impression that his theory is mainstream, which it is definitely not. At this point in time, Chashule must be treated as WP:FRINGE and his theories subject to WP:UNDUE. (Taivo (talk) 14:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC))

None of Casule's articles are derivatives. The 1998 book, mostly superseded by his later work, was 90 pages. The rest of his articles and the new book are over 400 pages on totally new topics. Hamp's comments are directly based on Casule's work, and a sister relationship with Indo-European is still a genetic relationship. The new book contains little from the articles, it is specifically on the reflexes of the Indo-European gutturals and mostly new material. It is unbelievable that you list van Driem in the references who just makes a comment in passing in his book, or Bengtson whose work is not supported by anyone and is of a lower standard than Casule. Casule's sins are that he is Macedonian, if his name was Johnson or Schmidt all would be fine. How can a Macedonian or Albanian discover anything? Even though all the journals are of the highest scientific standard and he is supported by the most eminent Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp, he should be censored according to all these people. It is a major discovery, and it is not true that his work is not supported (the Russian Phrygian specialist wrote about his 1998 book that it is a major discovery, so did E. Bashir, E. Vrabie, J. Andres Alonso de la Fuente, And the evidence is extraordinary. I still don't think anyone has even seen a page of Casule's work. Or maybe it's because he gives strong evidence that Thracian and Old Albanian show great affinities with Burushaski. ----shqip

This is Ilija Casule. I do not have the time to engage in these discussions that have little to do with scholarship, but I invite those who have called me a "crackpot" and a "nationalist", while hiding behind pseudonyms, to reveal their true identity and to apologise. You can e-mail me on ilijacasule@yahoo.com . If I do not receive an apology I will have to write officially to Wikipedia about this matter. Individuals like these actually devalue and destroy the very idea of Wikipedia. Finally, the verification of the worth of someone's contributions to science certainly doesn't come from Wikipedia. Thank you. Signed: Ilija Casule —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilijacasule (talk • contribs) 23:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

As you correctly note, Wikipedia is not a refereed journal with the purpose of evaluating your work. We merely report on what others have evaluated. Provide credible reviews of your work, and we may have s.t. to work with.

ELL2 in 2006 merely comments that "More tenuous lexical connections have been proposed with Northeast Caucasian languages and Paleo–Balkanic Indo–European languages (Casule, 1998)." This is presented in the context of loanwords, and doesn't even hint that it might be a genetic connection. Again, if the evidence were so obvious, you'd think that such a remarkable claim would be widely reported. The silence is rather deafening. kwami (talk) 06:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur with Kwami. Wikipedia is not the place to evaluate theories, but to report what the field as a whole accepts. At this point, Casule's theories are not accepted within the fields of Indo-European linguistics, Burushaski linguistics, or historical linguistics as a whole. That makes his theories WP:FRINGE and subject to Wikipedia's restrictions of WP:UNDUE. Nationalism has nothing to do with this and it wouldn't matter if he were Macedonian, Swahili, Pitjantjantjara, or Texan. His theories are not accepted by the community of scholars working on these languages--that's the story. Burush and Shqip are correct that Bengtson's paper is in a less reliable source than Casule's is and that Casule's most recent monograph is the better volume to refer to. But a complete Casule bibliography is not appropriate because his theories are not accepted by historical linguists. (Taivo (talk) 11:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

I agree with shqip. Bengtson's paper from 2001 was never published yet it is in the references. What are the criteria here? burush —Preceding unsigned comment added by Burush (talk • contribs) 22:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC) I have included the most authoritative source on Indo-European - burushaski: Čašule, Ilija. 2003b. "Evidence for the Indo-European Laryngeals in Burushaski and Its Genetic Affiliation with Indo-European". Journal of Indoeuropean Studies. 31/1-2 : 21-86. For the Journal of Indo-European studies to give 67 pages to Casule's work is indicative of the high quality. For an Indo-European linguist to have his findings published in JIES is like a scientist being published in NATURE. So don't do editing war. SHQIP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.207.12 (talk) 04:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC) The 2003 article is on the laryngeals and the grammatical correspondences, crucial in determining genetic relationship. There is no justification whatsoever to delete the Journal of Indo-European Studies article. If you don't know what the book is about don't intervene. Go to the Linguist List to see the contents. shqip If you can't tell the difference between gutturals and laryngeals do not intervene. shqip

No matter how much you want to make Chashule's work relevant and no matter how many different works he writes, it is still fringe. His most recent reference is all that is necessary. (Taivo (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC))

This has been put here before, but I will give more information that Chashule is not fringe and that there is important response to his work. 1. Vladimir P. Neroznak in his forward to Chashule's 1998 book says: "The lexical parallels proposed by the author between Burushaski and Phrygian (the most documented ofthe Paleobalkanic languages) are highly convincing' (p. 10) "The research undertaken by Ilija Casule opens a new page in comparative linguistics." (p. 11) Neroznak is an authority on the Ancient Balkan languages (check out any Paleobalkanic language on the web and his work is central) and author of two books on Phrygian. Is this deafening silence? Is this fringe? 2. Emil Vrabie, Balkanologist and Arumanian specialist, Review of Chahusle 1998 in the journal Balkanistica 13, 2000:pp208-211: "IC's book is, indisputably, the work of an erudite scholar, a keen observer and an imaginative yet cautious etymologist and comparativist' (p. 208), "The heuristic importance of this book for the further progress of both Indo-European (mainly Balkan) studies and as well as Burushaski studies seems to me obvious, and I strongly believe that this author deserves considerable credit for his extremely interesting anc courageous work". 3. Elena Bashir, Urdu, Kalasha and Burushaski specialist, review of Casule 1998 in Pakistan Studies News (Newsletter of the American Institute of Pakistan Studies) p. 5-12 : "This book is an important contribution to Burushaski studies and will be of interest to historical linguists, Indo-Europeanists in particular, and to specialists in northern Pakistani languages and ethnography. (p. 12 "many of the etymologies are convincing". 4. Encyclopedia of Languages and Linguistics (20 volumes)(Elsevier) - this was mentioned by someone, cites the book. 5. Jose Andres Alonso de la Fuente, in Revista Espanhola de Linguistics 2006: Vol 35/2. 551-579 dedicates a whole article in assessing Casule's work and states that it is the best new comparative project in the last 30 years. 6. If we look at all of Casule's refereed articles it means that some 10 anonymous referees recommended his work. 7. I agree that the Journal of Indo-European Studies article is highly significant. If you look at the instructions for contributors it states that articles shouldn't be longer than 5000 words. In Casule's case, they gave him 67 pages, which is some 20,000 words, a small booklet and most of the 2003 issue. This shows that his work is held in high regard. Once again, this is not deafening silence, it is deafening to those who ignore the evidence and it is not fringe. For these reasons I will add his newest book in the bibliography. Forgot to sign previous notes: burush

First, 1) is not a "source" since it's the intro to the book. Second, none of these journals are mainstream historical linguistics journals--they are all virtually unknown in the linguistics community as a whole. Third, none of these authors are mainstream Indo-Europeanists--Ringe is unconvinced, Hamp is unconvinced, Campbell is unconvinced, Trask is unconvinced. Fourth, you don't compare Burushaski with Phrygian to get a relationship! Any first-year historical linguist can tell you that. Fifth, getting your work successfully refereed in a journal does not imply that the peers who reviewed it thinks the author is correct--they only think that his work is well-written and falls within the boundaries of scientific. Authors can be dead wrong and they can still get their work published in refereed journals because they write well and write scientifically. Finally, none of these articles are actual historical linguistic textbooks or Indo-European analyses. they are all just review articles--not any kind of indication on Chashule's impact on the field. His impact on the field measures whether he is fringe or not, not whether an unknown reviewer says something nice or not. For example, Fortson's most recent revision of Indo-European Language and Culture (2010, Blackwell) contains not a single, solitary reference to Chashule. Not one--and it is the most up-to-date Indo-European textbook out there. Not a single mention. That makes him fringe. (Taivo (talk) 04:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC))

Since we ref 1998, we use 1998 in the refs. kwami (talk) 05:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Where are your references for Hamp? Hamp is convinced that Burushaski is related to Indo-European, basded on Casule,just not as closely as Casule believes. And Taivo, why don't you see the worth of the other sources. Who supports van Driem's 6 pages in his book on Burushaski. What you are doing is wrong - you are restricting quality sources and playing with them. The JIES article must stay,.\\. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.207.12 (talk) 07:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, we've spent enough time on you crackpots. Repeating nonsense doesn't make it sensible, you need evidence, and you don't have any. Burushaski is an isolate; various people have proposed connections to other families, none of which have been accepted. We mention a couple (van Driem because he's well known, Casule because of the journal he got published in, DC stuff because that's well known to Long Rangers), but that's all they're worth, a mention. If you keep it up, we'll just protect the article from what is becoming a nuisance. kwami (talk) 09:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Mr Kwamikagami, I am still expecting your apology for calling me in a public forum a crackpot and a nationalist. You may know how to manipulate entries in Wikipedia, but your language and demeanour is disturbing. You keep ignoring the evidence others have produced and seem to believe you are in a superior position to all other discussants whereby you can censor them at will. Please learn some humility, being humble is the essence of scholarship and civility. I neither gain nor lose anything from the debate here by anonynomous debaters. In fact I lose because of the superficial way editing is done. I am taking out the references to me altogether. But you still need to be apologise, signed ilija casule —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilijacasule (talk • contribs) 00:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC) I apologise for the misprint: I said: :"But you still need to be apologise" should say "But you still need to apologise". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilijacasule (talk • contribs) 00:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC) Great Kwamigami and Taivo, looks like we got rid of the 'crackpot' Skopyan! He is a nuisance. Talks about civility yet they take our history. Hellas77 forever —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellas77 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it looks like Casule now doesn't even want to be mentioned.

Ilija, I do apologize for my intemperate remarks. There is of course nothing wrong with speculation on linguistic relationships and gathering evidence to support it. There are all manner of such proposals, and I did not draw a proper distinction between your own research and those who would present it on this article as if it had been demonstrated or accepted by the academic community. It was the presentation that was inappropriate, and I should not have said that the suggestion of connections was inappropriate as well. kwami (talk) 05:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The German version, which is ranked as an excellent article devotes a whole section to Casule's hypothesis. shqip —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.241.64 (talk) 04:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC) Mr Kwamigami, I accept your apology. I hope everyone involved has learned something from this exercise. ilijacasule —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilijacasule (talk • contribs) 04:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC) And might I add it was an honorable thing to do. You ask for an apology from someone for whom you have some respect. That is why I would never ask Hellas forever for an apology. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilijacasule (talk • contribs) 07:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Well I must say, if it turns out that you are right, it would be an amazing discovery. When's the last time a new extant branch of IE was discovered? Albanian in 1854? It's precisely that which makes me so dubious: something this sensational should be all over the news, with strenuous counter-attacks by those supporting the status quo. kwami (talk) 07:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused here. Surely we're not going to decide how much to mention Casule's work here by what the author himself wishes. A WP:COI is a COI. whether it's inclusionist or deletionist. Is there something I'm missing? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think any of the proposed connections are very notable, except maybe Dene-Caucasian since that warrants an article of its own. I added the mention of van Driem, but it doesn't look as though that's gone anywhere either. kwami (talk) 08:25, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I happen to think that an attempted identification of Burushaski as IE or even a close relative is patent nonsense, myself. But there is material published on the connection. Rather than delete all reference to such material, is it not preferable to reword it? Wrotesolid (talk) 05:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

JIES published Casule's hypothesis on pronominal connections, with commentary by other authors.[1] Bengtson & Blazek reject it; I don't have access to Huld's or Hamp's reviews. — kwami (talk) 03:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I just ordered photocopies of the articles and the reviews from interlibrary loan. We'll see. --Taivo (talk) 05:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Burusho?

On what basis did this article get moved from Burushaski, which is far and away the most common English name? --Taivo (talk) 04:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Ruhlen

Saying that Vajda confirmed Ruhlen's hypothesis is a very easily verified and a very specific claim. The word 'unprecedented', for example, does not appear. Ruhlen's own 1998 paper specifically claiming that Yeniseian and Na Dene are each other's closest relatives is available in PDF form and Vajda's own paper specifically credits Ruhlen as publishing the hypothesis and providing the crucial cognate for birch bark. Of course Trombetti and others have made broader prior claims - feel free to add them with my thanks - but that does not mean that Ruhlen's hypothesis was not his own or that it is "false" to say that Vajda' provided conclusive evidence confirming the two families as each other's closest relatives. This is a matter of three words ("Merritt Ruhlen's hypothesis") and a verifiable reference to a peer-reviewed journal, not our own opinions on Ruhlen or his wider claims. Rather than removing this legitimate source, please add any other referenced claims you find relevant. Readers deserve the full context if they want to judge scholars' intuitions about Burushaski.μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

"conative" mood

Could you please write some description what kind of meaning the "conative" mood bears? I'm asking this because it doesn't seem to be a widely used linguistic terminology, so it would be useful for most readers of the article if this term is clarified, at least to some extent.--Imz (talk) 16:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)