Talk:John Allen Muhammad/Archive 1

Archive 1

Appeals

A line at the end of the second paragraph needs to be updated. "Some appeals had been made and rejected, but others remained pending." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.59.117 (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

That line is extremely misleading. He had exhausted all of his appeals for the murder of Dean H. Meyers (for which he was being executed). Any remaining appeals were unrelated to his execution. Clemency from the Virginia Governor was the only remaining legal route to stay the execution. 71.59.2.102 (talk) 14:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Irony vs. coincidence

Entry currently says that people reacted to the "irony" of 9:11 as the time of death, in light of the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01. The far more proper word is "concidence." An irony is an event that was not expected to occur in light of something else; For example, if Muhammad were a follower of Gandhi and did not even know how to use a gun, his conviction and execution would have been ironic. The mere concidence between 9:11 and 9/11 is NOT something unexpected; in fact, it was a very real possibility since the execution started at 9:00. Sorry for this slight rant, but please change "irony" to "coincidence." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.200.150 (talk) 02:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

You have a point, the problem is what does the source say? I don't necessarily agree with your definition of Irony (nor wikipedia's for that matter), but you are correct, "irony" should not be conflated with "coinicidence". If the source says the term "irony" was used by stony faced officials in the presser after this wretched chap's death, then "irony" has to be used in the article. Crafty (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Understood, but the source is not being quoted here. You either need to put irony in quotes or else you need to exercise editorial judgment and use the proper word. If a source said that Bill Clinton was impeached for angering God, would Wikipedia print that Bill Clinton was impeached for angering God? An encyclopedia should use proper words for things; it should not be a Wolf Blitzer-like sounding board that simply propagates bad use of logic and language.

Let me take a look at the source and see what I can do. Crafty (talk) 03:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It appears that User:Bdb484 has removed the press conference as a primary source noting it to be "totally lame". Crafty (talk) 03:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Execution

Someone added text that Muhammad had chosen the electric chair as his method of execution. CNN, AP and several other news sources all say he declined to choose a method and will get lethal injection by default. I corrected the statement and added a ref to CNN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stmdc (talk • contribs) 01:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

He was executed by lethal injection. In Virginia inmates may select either the electric chair or lethal injection. A failure to select either option defaults to the lethal injection option, and this is what happened in this case. His selection was not made at all, and therefore the law stated that lethal injection was selected for him. The Virginian Pilot, the Hampton Roads largest daily paper, stated in a concurrent story to the execution that since the change in the law in 1998, only 5 inmates have selected the electric chair, and some of them, as in the case of Earl Bramblett in 2003, selected the electric chair as a protest to point out the barbarity of executions in general. The vast majority of inmates since the selection law took effect in 1998 has been to lethal injection. Themoodyblue (talk) 02:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Gulf War

I once read/heard Muhammad was the individual who fragged some guys in Gulf War I (Operation Desert Storm.) Can someone verify if this is the case?

I have been following this story since 2002 on an informal basis, and I have never heard or read that, even in some of the extremist articles. It seems a lot of his evil thinking and actions developed as he failed in civilian life after his time in the service. IMHO, with what we are now hearing in court from Malvo, assuming it is true, it is probably a good thing Muhammad failed as so many things, or harm to others would have been even worse than what he did accomplish stateside. Vaoverland 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the Seattle Times published an article by Alex Tizon which quotes a witness to an incident in the 1991 Gulf War (see: http://alextizon.com/articles/killers/John%20Muhammad%27s%20Meltdown.pdf on page 11):

The story, according to Berentson and at least two other former members of the 84th, was that Muhammad threw a thermite grenade into a tent housing 16 of his fellow soldiers. Thermite grenades — made of finely granulated aluminum mixed with a metal oxide, and blasting heat up to 1,200 degrees — are used to destroy equipment during battle. The attack could easily have killed or maimed, but all 16 in the tent, some coughing and choking, escaped unharmed. Berentson was in the tent. He says the grenade went off near him and near a staff sergeant with whom Muhammad had fought earlier that day. The Army's Criminal Investigation Division, Berentson says, concluded Muhammad (then named Williams) was the lead suspect. Muhammad was led away in handcuffs and eventually transferred to another company pending charges Slowjoe17 (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

One of the reasons that people would still be wondering why the snipers did what they did is political correctness, in this case, the mainstream media's "revisionism and sanitization of Islam", i.e., the "politically correct whitewashing of the truth aimed at pleasing Muslim groups like CAIR": "When news of the snipers' identity first broke, CNN anchors were so determined to avoid making the obvious connection to radical Islam that they called the lead sniper, a Muslim convert, by his old name. Police were looking for John Allen Muhammad, but CNN insisted on referring to him as John Allen Williams." To further quote Rehabbing The D.C. Snipers by Investor's Business Daily (which presents a "pile of courtroom evidence"): "Nowhere in [CNN's] one-hour special — promoted as "The Minds of the D.C. Snipers" — is Islamist brainwashing even hinted as a motivating factor behind their serial assassinations. Yet the evidence is overwhelming that they were on a jihad." Asteriks 17:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

"On a Jihad"? You have to be kidding. The guy is a member of the Nation of Islam (which is considered a deviant sect and not Muslim by almost all Muslims, especially hardcore Salafi Jihadists), and left Tarot cards and a note that said 'I Am God', and then demanded 10 million dollars. Sounds like classic Al-Qaeda to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.220.73 (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps classic whack job (which Muhammad clearly was) using the recent Al Queda attacks as a ruse to throw suspicion off of him. Either way, it was very definitely a terrorist act. I lived in Hampton Roads at the time and I remember how terrified everyone was to be out at all. Why ever he did it, it was terrorism and cold-blooded, vicious, nihilistic murder. I am not much of a supporter of the death penalty, but if there was ever a case for it this was the one. If they had not executed this man, then they should have commuted everyone else's sentence on death row and then been done with it. Themoodyblue (talk) 03:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC) --

The following is an example article containing the allegation that Muhammad was suspected of fragging in GWI: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2003/03/26/mswa_muslim_soldiers_with_attitude?page=2

also:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.malvo05dec05,0,4954387.story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.144.103 (talk) 03:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, references #1 and #6 are identical.

<freund@csus.edu>

Georgia

The article says they were responsible for crimes in Georgia, but doesn't explain any details. Thus, I've removed the mentions. Superm401 - Talk 08:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of victims?

The article says 10 killed, the infobox says 16. RomaC (talk) 08:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the number 10 refers specifically only to the Beltway sniper victims' deaths ... and that the number 16 refers to the total number of deaths by Muhammad (that is, the Beltway sniper victims plus all of his other victims). Thanks. (64.252.124.238 (talk) 16:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC))

I see. I wasn't aware he had killed others before the Beltway shootings, maybe a new section "Other victims" would be appropriate? RomaC (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

15 people were killed by the two of them, 10 of them were part of the DC sniper shooting. However I don't know how many of the were actually killed by John Allen Muhammad. NWH5305 04:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection

Given the high rate of IP vandalism this article is attracting today, I've petitioned the WikiGods for semi-protection. May they smile upon my humble request. [UPDATE: This guy is dead.] Crafty (talk) 21:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What's your citable source? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The press is making it known.-J0hn76.102.32.59 (talk) 02:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

"What's your citable source?" Please tell me you are kidding. You might turn on the television, radio, internet or the two cans with a string held between them in your backyard. This is all over the media, there have been official press conference from the Virginia Department of Corrections and enough coverage on this to choke a horse. What on earth do you consider sufficiently citeable? Seeing the guys body in person? Themoodyblue (talk) 03:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

By now it's old news, but seeing it on TV doesn't really count, for wikipedia purposes anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Stop reverting please...

I noticed some people edit the page into what it will be in 10 minutes but someone is reverting it...just let it be. The Fear (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I know. Too bad they don't realize they need a reliable source confirming his death. -ACDCGAMER 02:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I removed the reference to whoever called ACDCGAMER what they called him - that language is completely unacceptable and unnecessary. The problem probably was that a number of people were trying to update and it became a bit of a traffic jam. Insulting people that were trying to improve the article (and I notice that the loser who made the insult did not sign it) is a real jerk move and it needs to stop throughout Wikipedia. Discuss and debate, fine. Insults and ad hominem attacks are the last bastion of the weak minded. Themoodyblue (talk) 03:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh shut up. I wasn't the one getting high and mighty about people adding John Muhammad's time of death, after he had been confirmed dead by multiple sources. Why don't we force people to use citations when stating "the sky is blue", or "the grass is green", while we're at it.

Well, there is an essay that explains why we don't need to cite that the sky is blue, although some would say you need to do exactly that. Bzweebl (talk) 23:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Time of death

9:11 pm local, per news conference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.223.188 (talk) 02:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed now per Fox News. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 02:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Look, guys

For those of you who personally trolled/attacked me on my talk page, I'm sorry for that edit; I did not know that Fox News had updated their page confirming his death by the time I made that edit, because it was not updated when I checked their website a few minutes ago. Still, for pretty much 'anything' on Wikipedia, including his death, you HAVE to have some sort of reliable source that confirms that information. Even if John's death was planned already, there still needs to be a legitimate source that confirms that he actually was executed. -ACDCGAMER 03:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Gamer, please note my entry above under "reverting". Sorry some jackass decided that insulting you was the only way he can make his point. Notice that he (or she) did not sign the insult and showed themselves to be what they were calling you. To quote (well, paraphrase really) John Wayne, "Don't let the idiots on wikipedia get you down!" Themoodyblue (talk) 03:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

*huggles*, homo.

Also, I'm not the one who edited his talk page. I know it's hard to believe that multiple people get angry when some high and mighty creep goes around reverting their edits for no good reason, but bear with me here... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.116.234 (talk) 02:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Meh, they're probably trolls from 4chan or something. I've dealt with MAAAAANY people like them before. On different sites. -ACDCGAMER 04:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Victims

In the Beltway sniper attack victims section there is a table of victims. More victims are listed below that. Does anyone have more info about those below the table? Did he confess to shooting them? Did he shoot them on his own, with Malvo or with someone else? Where in the US were they shot? When did those shootings occur? Did each die or survive? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 10:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I belive that the last survivor on the table was marked as being in the wrong location. I was eating in the Ponderosa where he was shot while walking out of, and this was in Richmond, Virginia, not Ashland. Just tryin to help! 98.140.188.30 (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Actualy, disregard that last comment, I looked into it more and it was in Ashland, I just didn't remember it being that far away, possibly because I fell asleep on the ride home (considering that they wouldn't let us leave the resturant for hours, and I was much younger at the time).98.140.188.59 (talk) 20:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

What about the murder in Montgomery, AL? That is never mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.197.14.47 (talk) 23:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)