Talk:History of the Scots language

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I inserted the Lord's prayer in Old Northumbrian in place of the Extract from the Dream of the Rood. I wasn't sure if that was in Old Northumbrian or not.

This is the Lord's Prayer I edited out the stuff in brackets. If you know better how to deal with it please do.

FADER USÆR ðu arð (~ bist) in heofnu (~ heofnas)
Sie gehalgad NOMA ÐIN.
Tocymeð RÍC ÐIN.
Sie WILLO ÐIN
suæ is in heofne and in eorðo.
HLAF USERNE of'wistlic sel ús todæg,
and f'gef us SCYLDA USRA,
suæ uoe f'gefon SCYLDGUM USUM.
And ne inlæd usih in costunge,
ah is in heofne and in eorðo.

This is the deleted extract from Dream of the Rood. If it is in fact Old Northumbrian it can go back.

From a 10th century version (Dream of the Rood)

Hwæt! Ic swefna cyst secgan wylle,
hwæt me gemætte to midre nihte,
syðþan reordberend reste wunedon!
þuhte me þæt ic gesawe syllicre treow
on lyft lædan, leohte bewunden,
beama beorhtost. Eall þæt beacen wæs
begoten mid golde. Gimmas stodon
fægere æt foldan sceatum, swylce þær fife wæron
uppe on þam eaxlegespanne.
Beheoldon þær engel dryhtnes ealle,
fægere þurh forðgesceaft.
Ne wæs ðær huru fracodes gealga,
ac hine þær beheoldon halige gastas,
men ofer moldan, ond eall þeos mære gesceaft.

MacNab

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Surely some of the stuff from this (very) long page can be moved to wikisource? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 21:10, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Is this Lowland before every occurance of the word Scots really necessary? What are the chances of Scots being confused with Highland Scots.

Seamus P. Dantic

Is the 'Gaelic' which follows 'Scottish' really necessary? Lowland Scots is referred to as such because it was the language of the lowlands - not of Scotland as a whole and to title it simply 'Scots' suggests otherwise.

User:An Siarach

I think the comment referred to putting Lowland before Scots after the first occurance of Lowland Scots. After that it should be perfectly clear that the word Scots refers to Lowland Scots. If the Gaelic which follows 'Scottish' was removed the meaning would be pretty unclear. Not many people would figure what 'Scottish' was supposed to mean.

Ah right enough, i didnt realise this is what was meant. Apologies for the misunderstanding!

User:An Siarach

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Modern Scots really needs to be expanded to include Scots in the C20th (e.g. the Scots revival of MacDiarmid etc.) and perhaps some even more recent history (e.g. the debate about the inclusion of a question about Scots on the 2001 census). I know this is the 'history' page for the Scots language, but as it stands it looks as if the language has disappeared, when by some estimates (Caroline Macafee in 1996) it has as many as 1.5 million speakers, or over a quarter of the population of Scotland. I don't have time to do it at the moment, so feel free, but I'll probably get round to it eventually if no one else does. Incidentally, the Dream of the Rood is in Northumbrian Old English - see Michael Alexander's 'The Earliest English Poems'. However, the Lord's Prayer from the Lindisfarne Gloss is probably a better example as it clearly shows the differences with West-Saxon varieties. User:junglehungry

Cleanup

Many of the texts included here need to be moved to Wikisource. -- Beland 02:08, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I've reworked the article. The intention was to create an article rather than a collection of stuff. I hope nobody objects. Perhaps some of the historical stuff in Scots language could be moved here or to either Older Scots or Middle Scots?

Nogger 23:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Pre-literary Scots

According to "A History of The English Language" (Albert C. Baugh) Celts lived in the southeastern regions of Britain during the time of Roman rule. They were being attackt from the South by the Saxons as early as the fourth century and from the north by the "warlike" Pics and Scots. The Celts appealed to Rome for help but were turned down because of threats elsewhere in the Roman Empire. A Celtic leader named "Vortigern" then offered the Jutes, who also wanted their share of the cake, the Isle of Thanet in exchange for helping to ward off the Pics and Scots. This turned out to be a troublesome alliance.

The Saxons continued setteling the south of Britain in regions currently known as Sussex and Wessex. Many of the Celts were undoubledly driven into the West seeking refuge in Wales and Cornwall.

The northeast already had populations of Celts before experiencing troubles with invaders. In the southeast of Kent the Jutes drove the Celts out. (See C.F. Hawkes "The Jutes of Kent"). The "Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" reported that in 547 the Angels established an Anglican kingdom north of the Humber. Saxons began settling regions north of the Thames known today with their Saxon names as Essex, Middlesex. It wasn't until the end of the fifth century that the Angels began to settle East Anglia.

R.Price pf2203@gmail.com Cakeandicecream 17:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It's true

Hey, i'm Scandinavian, Swedish actually, and what 81.155.32.195 (User:Orkadian) is putting is factually correct. Since i'm descended from Vikings here made me research the whole history and such. It would be nice if Mais oui! didn't just delete everything that Orkadian puts anywhere, stating its a sock. Kinda rude really.Silver seren 12:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Article not written from a Neutral Point Of View (NPOV)

This article makes no reference to Irish Gaelic as the mother language of Scots Gaelic. Nor does it mention that Scotus (pl. Scotti) is the Latin word meaning resident of Ireland or that the word Scotland literately translates as land of the Irish.

This article is based on nationalist propaganda and seeks to rewrite history to promote a particular agenda.

No article on the Scots language can be considered accurate unless it takes into account the influence of the Dal Riada Kings on Scottish history. In particular, an independent point of view would explore the reasons for the demise of the Pictish language and the role of a Dal Riada King - Kenneth MacAlpine in its demise.

Morna 00:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to username Mais Oui! ==

If this article is about a West Germanic language, it is so badly written that readers may be left with the impression that the article is actually about the Scots language. I surmise that it was written by someone with a political agenda and therefore others should be invited to discuss this opinion. If it is found that I am wrong then I will withdraw these remarks. However, in the meantime in order to facilitate such discussions, do not remove the tag flagging the neutrality of this article. If one is looking for an article on the Scots language then the article here..Scots language has been reviewed by Wikipedia and has been found to be a good article under the good article criteria.

Morna 21:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could point out specific paragraphs or sentences which violate the Neutral Point of View and explaining why you think that they do. This would be helpful in sorting out the problem which you have identified or at least in understanding why you think that there is a problem. For instance, reading your comment above gives me the impression that you are unaware that there are two Scottish languages, one of which (Scots Gaelic, commonly called "Gaelic" in Scotland) is similar to Irish and one of which (Lowland Scots, commonly called "Scots" in Scotland) is similar to English. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Morna, you are thinking of Scottish Gaelic. There was a shift in naming of the who (from Scottish -> Scottish Gaelic; "Inglis" -> Scots) sometime in the 17th/18th (or later?) century. There should however be a disambiguation link on top of the page to clarify this to readers. --sony-youth^pléigh 15:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that sounds like a good idea. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Where does this idea come from that lowlanders speak a language called Scots? Do people from Tyneside have their own language? What about yorkshire,Devon,sussex,they all have their own words for the same meaning.If you want to speak scots go and learn Gaelic.--Sandbagger 12:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm a Lowlander and I speak Scots/Lallans or Braid Scots/Lowland Scots or whatever you want to call it. It's definately not Standard English and hasn't been close for about 500 years. Scots has a tradition going back as far as pre-literary Scots (before 1375) when it was called Inglis. So I am guessing the "idea" has been around for a very long time. Yes, I imagine the people of Tyneside (and Northumberland) do have their own language, again it's definately not standard English and to my ear sounds much closer to Scots. Certainly there is a definate claim for Yorkshire (or Tyke) as a separate language. The name of a language can get nationalists so upset. I am quite happy to call Gaelic "Scottish". It is after all one of our Scottish languages and part of our heritage and culture and I for one intend to learn it. Perhaps it's only a matter of time before the Americans dump the name "English" and just call it American. Don't get so upset!--81.155.34.9 (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Middle Scots work "The Flyting of Dumbar and Kennedie" (circa 1500) describes the two languages of 15th century Scotland. Ershry, which Kennedy describes as the language of all true Scotsmen. (Irish being the later name describing native Gaelic speakers in Scotland). Dunbar in turn praises the use of Inglis as a more polish language. Here in 15th century Scotland we have the watershed where Scots was formerly held to be Gaelic and has become the new popular language of English (a name which Scots referred to their own modern language as, i.e. Inglis).Muireagain (talk)

The article does give a pretty good description of the shift of naming Gaelic as Scottis to using Scots to refer to the Scottish language which had formerly been called Inglis. The origins of Scottish Gaelic belong in that article, not this one, and it should be appreciated that Inglis or scots in modern terms generally replaced Cumbric language, not Gaelic. The term "Scots" itself derives from the Latin term Scoti, though it has apparently been argued that term in turn might have had Gaelic (or Brittonic?) roots. . . dave souza, talk 18:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Was the language really ever formerly called Inglis? Or has it just been spelled that unfamiliar way and been repeated today for false contrast? Historically there were lots of ways that the word 'English' was spelled in both Scotland and England. I'd guess this common language of Great Britain was in fact always called 'English' everywhere, even though it was sometimes spelled Inglis, Inglish, Anglish, Anglis, Ynglis and any other variant you can think of. The Scots, or rather the inhabitants of todays geographical Scotland have been speaking it exactly as long as the inhabitants of England. Steve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.14.66 (talk) 15:27, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Due to reduction of the final is to s in the Middle Scots period, Older Scots Inglis /ˈɪŋlɪs/ became Modern Scots Ingles /ˈɪŋlz/. Similarly Older Scots Scottis Scottis /ˈskotɪs/ become Modern Scots /ˈskots/. The Older Scots spelling survives in place names such as Fowlis /fʌulz/, Glamis /ɡlɑːmz/ and Wemyss /wimz/. However, the Modern Scots Ingles is now rare, having been replaced by English /ˈɪŋlɪʃ/. Nevertheless, Ingles can be found in personal and place names though not all occurances are necessarily from the meaning 'English'.

As to languageness. When did Irish become Scottish Gaelic? Classical Irish was used as a Literary language in Scotland until the 18th century. Scottish Gaelic was long referred to as Erse or Irish. However, both contemoporary Irish and Scottish Gaelic have standardised orthographies that are systematically taught in schools. Since that is how many people in literate western societies differentiate between languages, Irish and Scottish Gaelic are regarded as separate languages. Although Scots has a substantial literary history, the fairly standardised written form of the 15th-16th century (referred to as Scottis) was subsequently replaced contemporary Standard English as that was the standard variety of the new British State after political union with England in 1707. Scots-speakers did continue to produce literature in Scots but developed modern prestigious othographic conventions in the 18th century, using a mixture of older Scots conventions and contemporary Standard English ones. Those prestigious othographic conventions are not systematically taught in schools so knowledge of them amongst most Scots-speakers is scant. Consequently much written Scots is phonetic in nature, based on the writer's perceived sound to letter correspondences of Standard English. That is a characteristic of dialect writing and the socio-linguistic situation indicates that Standard English is viewed as the Dachsprache by Scots-speakers. Scots is now essentially a spoken (and written) variety of English not an autonomous but closely related language. 84.134.171.48 (talk) 23:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Inglis and English - It's all rather silly

This is all rather silly. Historically Caledonia was inhabited by Picts who spoke Pictish. In the 7th century Gaelic-speaking Scots from Ireland settled in the west, whilst at the same time Anglic-speaking Anglo-Saxons settled in the south and east. The Scots established their Kingdom of the Scots in the wast. The Angles established their Kingdom of Bernicia, later the northern part of the wholly English Kingdon of Northumbria in the east. Both eventually pushed out or assimilated the Picts. Bede (a Nortumbrian) reports that in his time (8th C.) there were five languages used in Britain. English, Gaelic. British (ie Welsh) and Pictish. The fifth was Latin. Gaelic was also known as Scots. Since those times English became the increasingly common language of what would eventually became today's Scotland. The idea that Scots (AKA 'Inglis') is another language rather than one of a whole multitude of British vernacular variants of what is now 'Standard English' is just wishful thinking by Scots nationalists unduly proud of their northern heritage. I'm sorry, but 'Inglis' is nothing more than a variant spelling of 'English' taken from a time when no one anywhere spelled any word with any consistency. May I recommend a very comprehensive and detailed book I picked up in Scotland: The Tribes of Britain by David Miles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.15.220 (talk) 16:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The very first mention in the article states that the subject of the article was "known to its speakers as "English" (Inglis)" making it abundantly clear the connection between the two variants/spellings, then carries on referring to it as "Inglis" now that we are apprised that that was the term for it in Scotland. No need for conspiracy theories. Whatever Scots is it clearly exists as distinct from Standard English (Scots is not a variant of Standard English (if anything Scots is more conservative/close to the origins) or vice versa, they are both derivations from a common root), so whether you regard them as two dialects or two languages (the distinction being largely political rather than linguistic) they are both worthy and distinct topics for articles. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

The Dictionary of the Scots language http://www.dsl.ac.uk/ records the following variants from the modern spelling of word 'English' being historically used in Scotland: Inglis, Inglis(c)h, a. and n.1 Also: inglise, inglys, -es, -ese, -eis, ingillis, ynglis, -ys; ingli(s)che, -eisch(e, -ishe, -eshe, ynglish. [North ME. inglis (a 1300), ME. (14th c.) and (rare) e.m.E. inglish, ynglysh. The regular Sc. form: cf. ENGLIS, ENGLIS(C)H. Thus it is illogical to use the word 'Inglis' in the text of this article with its misleading implication that it was, or ever meant, something different from the word 'English'. Similar historical spelling variants can be found throughout England too.