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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Meewam (talk | contribs) at 05:57, 12 October 2012 (→"Microsoft design language" may be the new official name for Metro (the design language) (from MSDN): Windows Phone Design System). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

All these links to Zune are not usefull and relevant to the Metro language. Macaldo (talk) 13:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These links are there because the article was created when most of the Metro language was only on Zune devices/software, I would get rid of some of them. The Zune website(s) doesn't really represent Metro in any significant way. --Interframe (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Principles section

This section is written like an advertisement, with highly ambiguous language, and needs a complete re-write for WP:NPOV. Examples:

  • Do a Lot with Very Little
  • Feels Responsive and Alive
  • Creates a System
  • Don’t Try to be What It’s NOT
  • Be Direct
  • etc.

These are completely meaningless soundbites, and have no place in an encyclopedia article. Mr. Credible (talk) 10:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, how to change it? Provide concrete examples of the design principles? Remove the flashy language? More quotes? 74.96.223.142 (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried rewriting it into paragraph form. Feel free to remove the advertisement banner if you think it works. Given the resulting size of the paragraph, though, it may not need its own section anymore. Emprovision (talk) 06:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Paragraph form is inadequate - it refers to the implementation of the Metro Design Language as seen in Windows Phone 7, not the actual design guidelines as stated by Microsoft. Either the paragraph be rewritten under a different heading, more accurately changed to represent the device neutral guidelines of the Metro, or left in it's current form as a lit of INTERNAL guidelines, which are clearly marked as Microsoft's internal guidelines. If you wish, you can keep the current form and remove the fluffy, sugar coated words with more technical explanations - but the paragraph written by Emprovision is off the mark in regards to what it should actually be describing. --90.195.141.15 (talk) 13:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that a whole section on Microsoft's internal principles is necessary, nor does it present useful information to the reader. See how they handled it at Snow White design language (although Snow White is an industrial language). Rather than laying out the company's subjective vision (something like "looks sleek, modern"), it simply presents factual information on the details that entail the design language ("minimal surface texturing"). Instructions like "Celebrate Typography" do little to inform the reader, and it's difficult to rewrite without using peacock words and maintaining the intended meaning (which is ambiguous in any case). I won't delete the bullet-point list again, but I definitely think that it needs to be condensed into an informative and neutral form. Perhaps a paragraph that discusses each major point ("most user actions are reciprocated with animations") and then references Microsoft's vision ("...to give the user the impression that the UI is 'alive'")? Emprovision (talk) 19:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you know anything about design, you would know that the understanding the principles is the most important thing you can learn or be informed about. Now, the words that are provided by Microsoft maybe biased, but that doesn't mean you get rid of the most important thing that any design language-article in an encyclopedia can provide. It makes sense to change it to be less "biased", but it isn't right to go and turn the principles into something else thats not true to what the design language actually is. --Interframe (talk) 08:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Full-bleed canvas

The use of 'full bleed canvas' in this article isn't defined (nor is it defined as used here on full bleed, which the article linked to). A real full bleed canvas is a canvas painting which continues around onto the sides of the frame; or prints are full bleed if they are printed beyond the edges to which they are to be cut. It seems that Microsoft is neologising here, and using the term to just mean a graphical element which continues beyond the physical screen (so that you must scroll to see all of it).

This is confusing because the print meaning, ie 'without borders', describes pretty much all user interfaces, and in the painter's meaning, the windows phones don't appear to have displays that continue round the sides of the phone. The images used to describe full-bleed in this article don't help, as they don't show how this differs from other UIs; what is missing is that the microsoft UI is not always completely visible on the device. Can we have a better explanation and picture please?

For an example of better, MS's own Windows Phone 7 presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/jpalioto/windows-phone-7-overview-4714260 page 13 and onwards, shows similar screenshots, but with a phone superimposed so that it is obvious that the UI is not intended to fit inside the screen dimensions. 85.31.168.2 (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - I just read the article and I was at a loss as well when I read that. If the person who wrote this could give us the reason why it's known as a "full bleed canvas" that'd be nice. -download ׀ talk 01:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with 85.31.168.2 (henceforth Wiki-John). Full-bleed is referenced here, here and in this pdf. However, as Wiki-John qualified, the distinction being made is that the Metro style uses a continuous layout rather than the current separate panes (as common in current smartphones). Hence 'full-bleed' seems to be a marketing term rather than a technical description of the capabilities of the phone. Perhaps we should remove this term? IMO, the sentence is sufficient, concise and accurate regardless of the term: The resulting interfaces favour larger hubs over smaller buttons and often feature laterally scrolling canvases. (I've removed the term)Bunston (talk) 01:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Quotes are not advertisements"

This particular quote is very long and takes a lot of space in the article. It does make the article look like a Microsoft advertisement overall. Disproportionately large attention is given to Microsoft's own view of the technology instead of a neutral view. I've removed the quote. - Sikon (talk) 05:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but those principles are really the whole point of this article. To understand the design language from the people who made it. I think this information is absolutely critical for this article. It also does not serve as an advertisement. It is a guideline for those wanting to create software using this design language. --Interframe (talk) 00:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While I reserve judgement about it being an "advertisement", I don't see why this quote is necessary. An article is a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject, and this quote seems to be adding unnecessary details. I would also agree that it puts too much focus on the primary source's view, thus violating WP:WEIGHT.
Wikipedia is not a "how-to", and is not a guideline for those wanting to create software. The point of this, or any other article, is not to understand the article's subject from the point of view of those that are closely associated with the subject. The article has to adhere to WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. Your editing history has an apparent focus on Microsoft related articles. To avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, I would suggest that you gain a consensus on this before reinserting the material.
As for the images, if they are all under copyright, then WP:NFC's strict guidelines apply, and in that situation I think it would be best to remove them and discuss why they are necessary, instead of leaving them in the article and hoping for the best. - SudoGhost 00:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Third party

I restored these references because they are reliable sources that verify the information in the article. The reasoning that they should be removed because they are not a "Microsoft source" is in opposition to Wikipedia's policies concerning third-party sources, that articles not only allow them, but require them. - SudoGhost 23:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They are not reliable sources, at least according those guidelines, simply as they the authors personal opinion, and not actually backed by any facts in the article. The source who mentions Encarta & MSN does not work for Microsoft, and had no hand in actually designing the design language. Finding a random person's opinion on the internet and then putting it in article as a source does not count as referencing or reliable sourcing. Hence this assertation that it has anything to do with Encarta is an opinion and the article misleadingly presents this as a fact. 90.195.141.150 (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cnet is a reliable source with editorial oversight, well within the guidelines for reliable sources. If you feel that this is not the case, you're more than welcome to take it to WP:RSN. It does not matter that the person does not work for Microsoft, it is in fact preferred that they not, in keeping with WP:Third-party sources. - SudoGhost 22:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

no article on WInJS

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9988690/metro-style-apps-winjs-a-must

G. Robert Shiplett 13:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Metro No More: Windows’ New Interface Suffers Trademark Woes

News: http://techland.time.com/2012/08/02/metro-no-more-windows-new-interface-suffers-trademark-woes/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.121.210.102 (talk) 09:44, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. A new discussion may be started when and if the baby acquires a legit name. Favonian (talk) 15:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Metro (design language) → Windows 8 style UI - Microsoft have dropped the Metro name following a trademark dispute and have instructed developers to now describe the design language as "Windows 8 style UI" according to the BBC. Cloudbound (talk) 23:48, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Microsoft have yet to replace the name with an alternative; and even if the article name changes, its important to discuss that Metro was once the internal codename of the design language, and it still may be an internal codename not to be mentioned in public by Microsoft employees. There has been a rumor about this, reported by The Verge, regarding an internal Microsoft memo to employees, however this is unconfirmed. --Interframe (talk) 04:47, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - At least until Microsoft comes up with an alternative if it does. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 05:59, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The term "Metro" is used heavily in the technology press, and will likely remain the predominant term for this design. The notion that it's "an internal codename not to be mentioned in public by Microsoft employees" is contradicted by hundreds of official Microsoft web pages. Further to the point, there has been no adoption of the proposed term "Windows 8 style UI" anywhere. Should we also rename the Hotmail article to "Windows Live Hotmail" to conform with Microsoft's branding policies? No, because in the real world it's called "Hotmail." --Stybn (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Slightly touchy response there Stybn. The Microsoft web pages you mention may start to be changed now that Microsoft have chosen to drop the Metro name. Cloudbound (talk) 21:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    It doesn't matter if we believe that webpages may start to be changed. Wikipedia articles are reflective, not speculative. If something else becomes the WP:COMMONNAME, then a renaming would be warranted, but until then we shouldn't change an article's name in anticipation of that shifting, especially when the proposed name change is a just temporary placeholder. - SudoGhost 02:46, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - We should wait until Microsoft has announced an alternative name for the UI, and even then it wouldn't necessarily replace the Metro name, one is about a design language and the other is about the name of a User Interface, ie. Windows Aero or the Aqua UI. Its also imporant to note that the "Windows 8-style" UI name would not apply to other Microsoft products like Xbox or the new outlook.com, for example. There still may be reason to keep this article the way it is. --Interframe (talk) 22:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - "Metro" still appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME for this subject. "Windows 8 style UI" is a recent thing, but still not the "common name", and "Windows 8 style UI" appears to just be a temporary descriptor, not some new official name that's going to last. - SudoGhost 09:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it appropriate for us to retain a name that's an apparent trademark violation? --BDD (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Metro trademark feud

Surprised that the Metro Newspapers group hasn't bothered to force Microsoft off the use of that word (yet?). They've been using Metro as a brand name and title worldwide since the nineties, with hundreds of millions of readers. I don't see Microsoft holding on to the name Metro for this very long. 83.254.151.33 (talk) 21:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article contradicts itself on Metro's new name

The lead states that "Windows 8 style UI" is its official name, yet "Legal Issues" states that the name's a rumor.

I think there's a problem with that. Karjam, AKA KarjamP (talk) 10:13, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually microsoft confirms that they have changed the name to Modern UI and Microsoft Employees use it everytime someone says Metro on the Microsoft Forums.

Rnorris ([User talk:rnorris97|talk]]) 19:57, 27 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.180.210 (talk) [reply]

Metro Is Now Modern UI

The Register (link) Says that microsoft decided to rename Metro UI into Modern UI. I request moving the page. THX YOU

From /Z, AndreZlatinShow on YouTube--Andzlatin (talk) 01:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I propose changing the name of this article to Microsoft Live Modern Windows 8 Metro Style User Interface Home Edition. --Stybn (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Stybn. I support you! Let's add the full version number too! Best sarcasms, Codename Lisa (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to refrain myself from making a sarcastic statement. Instead, I'll point you to the archived discussion. Zombifiertalk 13:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should Split this article

We should Split this article into:

  • Modern (design language)
  • Windows 8 UI
  • Windows Phone UI

Why? Because The news have said it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andzlatin (talk • contribs) 02:04, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Modern UI

NO ACTION
No consensus to move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am requesting to move 'Metro (design language)' to Modern UI, since that's the official name now. — John Biancato 20:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: Hi. From what I have seen, read or heard so far, "Metro" seems to be the most stable and the most common. So, we should adhere to WP:COMMONNAME by using Metro for the foreseeable future. Please take note that Visual Studio 2012 does not use "Modern UI"; instead, it uses "Windows Store App". Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Microsoft design language" may be the new official name for Metro (the design language) (from MSDN)

Hi all.

While "Metro-style app" appears to have found a new official name "Windows Store app", that's not the replacement name for the Metro design language. (thankfully... as that would have made it "Windows Store design language"...)

However, I believe I may have come across the "official" new name of the design language:

Microsoft design language

You can see it being used on the following pages from "Dev Center - Windows Store apps" on MSDN:

Make great Windows Store apps

Design case study: iPad to Windows Store app

Guidelines for typography

...and also on this MSDN page:

Roadmap for Windows Store apps using DirectX and C++

You will notice that on those pages, "Microsoft design language" is the new term for the design language (but not the apps). The first page also had 2 occurrences of "Microsoft design style" (likely a replacement for "Metro style").

Now, of course, I don't know how "official" this makes it. There are only a few instances/mentions of this new name, and also, I suppose it is entirely possible that those pages may change. Also, as often mentioned before, Microsoft apparently started to use "Modern UI" in a few places for a little while: [1] [2]

However, this is MSDN (as opposed to, say, a blog or the MS "Events" site), so I suppose this may be more "official" and may carry more weight?

In any case, at this point in time, at least on MSDN, it would appear that this is the new official name for the design language.

Niamer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:51, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I found some additional evidence that supports this.
I previously posted the link: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx Make great Windows Store apps
Now, I cannot find the old version of this page on Google, but I Google'd the text on the page and found another MSDN page with the exact same content as that page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/hh464920.aspx
It really is the exact same text. (A text diff confirms it.)
And the old version of this page is still there; it was cached by Google on 5 Sep 2012 08:48:04 GMT: the cached past version of http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/hh464920.aspx
Since Google will update its cached pages later, I took a screenshot (as of 2012 09 18) of the "before vs after": http://i.imgur.com/waGbq.png
You will see how the instances of "Metro" were replaced:
"Metro style apps" became "Windows Store apps".
"Metro design style" became "Microsoft design style".
"Metro design language" became "Microsoft design language".
Niamer (talk) 03:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're posting the same exact information at Talk:Windows 8, so it might be better to discuss it there in order to keep the discussion in one place. - SudoGhost 03:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, apologies for that. Technically, this article is the correct one to post in, but this does concern Windows 8 too in a fairly major way, so I "re-posted" in that article's talk page. Let us continue there. Niamer (talk) 03:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just readded to the article the fact that certain MSDN pages are now using "Microsoft design language".
What I added was this:
Certain MSDN pages have started to use the terms "Microsoft design language" and "Microsoft design style" to replace "Metro design language" and "Metro design style" respectively. [1][2][3][4][5][6]
Shortly after, I see that SudoGhost had removed that addition and stated in his/her Edit summary:
Imgur is not a reliable source in any way, and primary sources cannot be used to suggest things not explicitly stated in them. Do you have a third-party reliable source that can be used to verify this?
That Imgur image (this) was uploaded by me, actually. I wanted to show the "before" v.s. "after" of the Make great Windows Store apps (MSDN Subscriptions) page, which shows how the terms "Metro design language" and "Metro design style" were replaced with "Microsoft design language" and "Microsoft design style".
The only way I could find the old version of that page (AFAIK) was to see the Google cached page: the cached past version of http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/hh464920.aspx
Now, I don't know how much of a "proper source" Google cached pages are, but they do reliably show the textual content of a past version of a page, as it is all done by a crawler/bot.
It does very clearly show how that page was like before the Metro renaming and after the Metro renaming and you see clearly how they replaced the references to "Metro":
"Metro design style" --> "Microsoft design style".
"Metro design language" --> "Microsoft design language".
However, as mentioned above on this Talk page, that Google cached page will be updated soon. Right now (2012 09 23), you can still see the old Google cached version of that page, but it will soon be updated, so there was no point of including that as a reference. Hence, I uploaded a side-by-side comparison screenshot. I know it is far from ideal and is not a proper source, but I really don't know how else to show this "evidence". (Sorry, not that familiar with Wikipedia practices.)
What is your opinion on this, SudoGhost?
Niamer (talk) 02:34, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's kind of the reason it was removed, it's all speculation and the title of this section, "may be the new official name" sums it up well. It was Metro, then people came to the talk page swearing up and down the official name was Modern UI, then Modern, and a few other things. Every few days there was a new "official name". However, until we have a reliable source that says "this is an official name" then it's not. Until we have some reliable source that says "Microsoft rewording their pages is relevant in some way" then it's just speculation that this means anything. The Microsoft page is the primary source for, well, itself. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. We can't look at the page changing and conclude that "it means something" unless a secondary source says it. - SudoGhost 02:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I have to agree with SudoGhost. It seems a lot of enthusiasts simply get away with themselves and their own imaginations where there is no concrete proof of an organized movement towards one certain course of action. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 05:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi.
An update:
I found this, which was posted on October 2nd, 2012:
Windows 8: new name for Metro apps and associated design language
The author of the post, Laurent Duveau, is a "Microsoft Regional Director, Microsoft Certified Trainer and Microsoft MVP".
Does this (in addition to the MSDN pages mentioned above) constitute a reliable source? I mean, he is actually affiliated with Microsoft.
Meanwhile, as of right now, the article still talks about how the replacement name is "Modern UI" (which Microsoft does not appear to be using anywhere at all today), and the only source of that is that "The Register" article. Also, as a side note, for some reason, the reference to the "The Register" article is entitled "Microsoft officlally renaming Metro UI to Modern UI." even though the "The Register" article does not say anything about an "official renaming". I feel that this "Modern UI" claim is very misleading.
Thanks for your input.
Niamer (talk) 16:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


MS Program Manager Larry Lieberman is calling Metro for "Windows Phone Design System." Watch this Channel 9 video, from Oct. 4, at the 2-minute mark; UX Designer Jon Bell talks Common App Design Problems. Meewam (talk) 05:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "Make great Windows Store apps (MSDN Subscriptions)". Retrieved 2012-09-18.
  2. ^ "Make great Windows Store apps (MSDN Subscriptions) - Comparison of before and after". Retrieved 2012-09-18.
  3. ^ "Make great Windows Store apps". Retrieved 2012-09-17.
  4. ^ "Design case study: iPad to Windows Store app". Retrieved 2012-09-17.
  5. ^ "Guidelines for typography". Retrieved 2012-09-17.
  6. ^ "Roadmap for Windows Store apps using DirectX and C++". Retrieved 2012-09-17.
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