Talk:Knanaya

Talk archive

Older discussions are in /Archive 1. -- Chonak (talk) 00:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Topic (Knanaya) should be deleted

The page itself is a goof. 1) No body in Kerala can claim as monoethnic due to a study by BBC in October. 2) They lack proofs ( no copper plates of significance are there making it just a myth not history). 3) Their practices have more resemblance with Portuguese rather than claimed jewish formalities. 4) All the peoples (including converted christians) worshiping under churches was admitted and entered into the so called knanaya register on formation of archdiocese of kottayam 5) If kananayas have pure jewish blood then there shouldn't be any person in the community with blue eyes. But there are so many fellows belonging to the community with blue eyes stating Portuguese connection.(similarly one more endogamic community in kerala kuttichira,near kozhikode says they are pure arabic.there is no Portuguese connection here but only british connection). please see these documents also. http://nasrani.net/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/#comment-4325 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.230.253 (talk) 12:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Knanaya Pentecostal?

Officially there are only two 'sabhas' - the catholics and jacobites. the knanaya pentecostal group is one formed by those who went against the customs and joined either the traditional pentecostal churches or other prayer-groups. they do not necessarily follow the same customs as that of traditional knas. somehow, they want to leave the fold yet maintain their kna identity which is perfectly alright. But a kna individual cannot continue to be one unless s/he continues to follow tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.254.126 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If so then why there is no Knanaya Muslim too :) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There are 10,000 Knanaya muslims, but they don't mix with people who do not keep all the law of Moses.

Pentecostal is the true religion! Speaking in tongues and worshiping GOd! Not Mary. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Peshitta

Some automatic filter on this page won't allow correct spelling of the Peshitta to be included. This is a great pity as it is THE central aspect of Knanaya "Hebrew" life.81.103.121.144 (talk) 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I found the solution by linking to the Jewish Gospels pages which at lest discuss the Peshitta.81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

81 103 121 144

Hello 81 103 121 144 Instead of editing the article like Knanaya a number of times continueously, please learn how to use the sand box.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, it is because I am disabled and can only do a little at a time. Very sorry. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

you may be disabled and because of that inferiority complex you are making insulting allegations towards nasrani's forgetting that knanaya women were raped during portugese inquisition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Nasranis are wonderful people, it was certainly not my intention to make any "insulting allegations" could you clarify how please so that I can make corrections? Thank you.81.103.121.144 (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

with duo respect,'living fossils',is that a term to indicate the wonderful people? even no genetic tests until now claimed the jewish origins of knanayas,how nasrani's alone be living fossils ? if then knanayas are a cross breed of portugese-arabians like latin-christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Living fossil has no malicious meaning it is in fact a complement to the academically acknowledged antiquity of the tradition. I mentioned this last time. If you read the section carefully you will see it says there is no difference between Nasrani and Knanaya.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Even there is no specific reliable reason for the creation of archdiocese of kottayam. It is been known that false copper plates with arabic and portugese inscription was the reson behind it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I am interested if you can produce a reference concerning the copper plate forgery which you mention.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

what type of reference you need,the original copper plate you produced before pius xth? and I like to see the original copper plate defing a kna's jewish ethos. But I prefer to see a genetic test report of a 100% jew and a knanaya more than that :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Notorious Southist Propaganda

This article is fully stupid propaganda by citing sources of dubious credibility and misrepresenation. POv is raised and editers are requested to arrive on credibility and veracity of the sources cited in the article.

Please see the earlier archived discussion: /Archive 1.

Please do not chnage the article with out consensus. EasoPothen (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree the name should probably be Thekkumbagar and you make some good points, however, since you call the Southist tradition about themselves "fully stupid propaganda", then I don't think you are qualified to make any neutral edits, for example you said not to make any edits without consensus but then you changed the name to Thekkumbagar without consensus (though I sort-of defend your change now unless anyone else reverts your change). If no one reverts your edits then it is proof of consensus. I actually agreed your name change last time, but it was reverted by those who did not agree, so clearly you and I were not enough for a consensus. We have had a significant amount of hate-vandalism on this page from people with the same kind of POV you seem to express, it is a good article as it stands right now with a good number of references and still just needs more references to be found and inserted. Let's just wait for other participants to come along and put in what they have before the two of us decide to make any radical changes. Please chill-out/relax have a nice cup of tea, take a deep breath to let go of everything which stresses you out and then let's continue to talk about what changes should and should not be made. :) 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Although I reverted your edit because it did have a heavy political bias, I am systematically checking references for every individual change you made and putting them back in once verified. By the end of the day I think I will have completed a a section entitled criticisms which everything directly opposed to the article should be in. That way we can prevent political bias from seeping through the entire article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the term Jewish Christians which has many connotations I agree that there may be a problem with the term and that perhaps something like Judeo-Christian would be a more accurately descriptive term. I would like Robin Klein's input on this question. Is Jewish Christian an accurate enough description Robin? 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator. EasoPothen (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We already requested admins to help deal with vandalism from people who do not understand the meaning of the article. There is no propaganda in this article. The article is currently being watched by several people who are vigilant against this vandal with a very strongly anti POV.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in a sandbox if you are really interested in improving the article. What stands now is a low level propaganda material with absolute fake citation. The references given are manipulated and nothing on proper history is written in this page. The entire article need to be changed. EasoPothen (talk) 07:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in the sandbox :) I have been doing Wiki for a very long time. All the peers are happy with the article except you and you have already proven your "anti" POV agenda. This disqualifies you from objective editing. But if you want to present the facts here first. If there is a dispute then it can be resolved here and then when consensus is arrived at it will be put into the article. That is the way it works when controversies arise.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

There has been unresolved POV in this article for a very long time. None of the stories mentioned in this article has any supportive evidences or rather any proofs. Wikipedia is not the place to paste some diocese propaganda. I invite line by line discussion on each of the points mentions in this article. Sectional POV's are required as each section contains propaganda materials. EasoPothen (talk) 06:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

TO ALL SOUTHISTS WHO CLAIM ENDOGAMY OF 1600 Years

1. ) No species which had undergone endogamy for 1600 years cannot survive (scientific evidence proof is available,example is pharaos of egypt).
2. ) Genetic tests of Southists are available in www.ysearch.org. It reveals that, there is no difference in genes between northists and southists. this reveils that there is no genetic match between jews in israel and southists.
3. ) The stories of origin of southists dates back to 15th century where vellallachetties converted to christianity.(No intentional insults here)
4. ) Out of the results of DNA samples tested, 50% mDNA tests indicated South Indian Origin(Dravidian).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC) The abstract from the letter of Pope Pius Xth on creation of Archdiocese of Kottayam due to split between Mathew Makil and Northists...

“In support of our complaints from a social point of view, we beg to call your Holiness’ kind attention to the past history of the church in Malabar. The sudists, too low and too insignificant to be counted in the general community, were not allowed to be ordained priests; and though there were native bishops even from the time of the apostle, St Thomas, not one of them has been a sudist. The consecration of Mar Makil, a sudist is the first instance of the violation of our admitted superiority and privilege for centuries. Although later on, the sudists were allowed to be ordained as priests through the exertions of Latin bishops, there is no instance of a sudist priest governing even a northist parish. We are therefore extremely sorry that the Vatican with all its proverbial respect for the precedents would think it fit not only to deprive us of or time honoured superiority and privilege but also to subject us to the rule of a sudist bishop-which is indeed a great national insult. Our only consolation when we think of all this is , that Rome has been kept in the dark as to the true state of affairs, and that she will soon rectify this unhappy error.”

Example of Fakeness

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 07:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Present your quotations here. We are all interested in what you have to say. Please demonstrate it here, then we can put it into the article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Lot of attempts are there for making knanaites superior than other christians. This is a disputable attempt that neither of them attempt to provide scientific tests providing their jewish identity(atleast one). Even the dispute icon in the page is deleted by vandals.Having whitish complexion is the method of considering one as knanite,then whole whitish christians should be considered as knanites(let us forget the similarity between christians in Goa and knanites). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there are people trying to defame the Knanaya people with baseless slander. [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 10:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

poor knanayas.they even kills Sister Abaya and even removes the references from the knanaya page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

What kind of logic is that? This is an ethnicity page. Why should the death of a Catholic nun represent people who could very well be other faiths? Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Please improve your grammer next time you post. [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 21:55, 03 May 2011 (UTC)

Since it is dealing with (your) ethnicity(purely jewish as claimed), it does sounds well. your answer has it all.No such incident has been reported in the history of Syrian churches except knanaya's(you should be thankful for native christians for making them harassed in the name of this incident(being christian) apart from making them 'living fossils'). I like to know the mistake in the sentence too :) Mr/Mrs.Grammer teacher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you :). Sorry about my outburst. I actually never stated that I am Knanaya and I am not. Unfortunately, I do not see how my reply has "it all". Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups? [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 22:16, 04 May 2011 (UTC)

Please go through the sentences you wrote. I sensed a smell of intolerance(which usually a character of this community).Sorry to know that you are not a kna.I guess you are just a 'living fossil' as specified in the main article. regarding , why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people,the abaya case was brutally screwed up by the fellows in this community to save the culprits.Even one political leader belonging to kna was there in delhi to make it possible (according to intelligence report by kerala police).From these everyone now know that it is not an individual's action but a community project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of middleastern people of arabic and syrians as syric christians in kerala. basically these are not at all a surprise. if people can understand these middleastern sense we can even compare a syrian christian to muslims from middeast or we may compare muslims to a syrian/kananay community . so simple. but these people eventually mixed in to kerala population over centuries such as locally marrying and populated. Any of these featured people in orthodox or syrian churches can makeup a conclution of these phenomen. sometime i doubt sreenivasan or son veeneth srenivasan seems having these muslim blood.These can be happen in kerala populations. As i observed or many pointed out that nair are also middleastern.some claim that they do have persian orgin. bascially our connection to persia or syra or to the middleastern land is evident and its not a surprise. In a way these facts are correct but if we asked too much about these all the facts are not correct. Brahimns among st thomas christians I think there are more clues for these, Many families know where there patrneal sides came from regardless of investigations. among ancient jews and arabs christians it may hard to find weather someone is arab decendents or jewish decendents. as long as fatherside keep track of their histories actually it cannot be miss it orgin, that i was confused a while ago. i think there was brahimn christians become nasranis and their were so devoted to eso as they found about iso messiah and his power from St thomas They composed many classical song and strict life being christian such as morning prayer, bath and vegetarianism but they brought some rituals. eventually when those brahimn converted families brought brides from middleastern immigrants their orginality began to change. there are middleastern group mixed among the brahmin converts as northist and middleastern immigrant marry other women like brahimn. the middleastern immigrants who did not joined northist become southist. so persians migrated to malabar also the central asians and brahimns now comes as northist and others are west asians. but what happened whichever northist familiy mingled with middleastern immgrants are patrneally brahimns but autosome testing middleastern such as features and culture compare to brahimns

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.102.59 (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 

==User:202.88.237.74 Vandalism==Please note that the above-mentioned user has been vandalising this page without providing an clear referenced arguments. The complaints of the user seem to be that the article needs a "critical view" section to counter the ethnic Knanaya views presented here, However the user fails to provide references about the Knanaya from other perspectives and the result is possibly unintended emotional attacks and vandalism. Besides not liking the fact that the article is from a Knanaya point of view about Knanaya "southists", the user seems to think that this is an "elitist" article where Knanaya are somehow presenting themselves as "better" in some way or another over other (non-Knanaya) Nasranis ("Northists"). However the user does not make clear where such and idea appears in the text. The User also fails to understant the use of idiom in English regarding the complement about Nasranis being "living fossils" of a now lost period of Christian history as being an insult. The user is invited to try and present calmly without resorting to personal attacks the evidence and counter evidence for his/her frustrations.149.254.61.40 (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear user 149.254.61.40, first of all please go through the above comment of yourself and clean all the spelling mistakes. secondly, I tried to present all historical facts one by one including DNA tests done on both knas and northists. I recently noted that you puts forwards insulting remarks and removes POVs from the article without any concensus. Vatican haven't recognised archdiocese of kottayam as 'jewish christians' as stated in the 'did you know'. diocese of kottayam was formed due to the enemity arised by Mathew makkil towards Nidherikkal kathanaar when Makkil thought knas are considered as inferior castes(sons/daughters of Vellallachettikal otherwise known as Charamkettikal) and do not possess any churches.They were also not able to marry from Northists and were forcefully obliged to marry within themself which is endogamy in kna's term(LOL). Knas now declared themself as pure jewish since jews now have a country and considered superior to Arabs. If in future, lower castes in Kerala makes their own country and declares themself superior, I am sure that Knas will claim themself as lower castes(Pulayas or parayas) as they had claimed now. Also for your knowledge, RCs doesnot promotes ethnocity and due to it there is no chance of recognising a diocese for knas only. It is you who vandalises the pages by removing appropriate links and other important facts. If you dont want to edit a specific page, please do it in your sandbox and please dont insult others for simply adding references.Also bear in mind that a wiki page is not a poster and advertisement template for knas to insult others. If you are a Kna, I politely invite you to do a DNA test which is more accurate than 'blah blah'ing your jewish claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Jewish race, only Jewish religion. Knanaya preserved more elements of that earlier form of religion than any other Christian sect. It seems you have a fixation on castes. Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian. If you have evidence of another christian community with more Jewish tradition than the Knanaya please present your evidence. otherwise please stop your racist vandalism removing links etc. You are the only one causing trouble on this page for more than a year now. Your links are not scientific journals they are racist discussion pages promoting hate against the Knanaya. But why do you hate so much? What happened to you? If you are a Christian then please behave like Jesus before Pilate with gentle rational behavior.81.103.121.144 (talk) 23:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

@81.103.121.144,

1) "Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian".It is none of your business.see who is propogating religious agenda?!!! 2) Jewish is not only a religion but a race.for the clarification you can go through the article and read about 'L3' type of genes.they provided here without citing a reliable source. 3) Sister Abhaya is not knanaya? who killed her? the culprits are also knanaya. Since you are purely the species of jesus christ,it is not a crime?!!!who avoided the links? 4) What happened to you?--->good question. I always believe in science. I saw this article and it is without any proof or validity. So I interpreted. Also you $@#$#, please provide the details of problems I caused. Is that I added links of relevance?.removed unaudited references? Please be polite to answer my questions.dont be emotional :) like other k(un)nanayas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with everything you stated, 81.103.121.144. Once again, 202.88.237.74, you have fallen back to unclear statements that are difficult to decipher. Please state your arguments clearly so everyone can understand. Jews are an ethnic group not a race and Judaism is the religion. One can be of Jewish ancestry but not practice Judaism and similarly not belong to the Jewish ethnic group and practice another faith. In addition, race is a socially constructed term and changes according to the specific society, so let us avoid the use of something so loosely termed. "Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups." Knanaya people are an ETHNICITY. Not all of them believe in Jesus. The murder case has no place in an ethnic group's page. Avalinelemar (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

MR/MRS Avalinelemar,

• 1) please differentiate between the race and ethnicity in your viewpoint.It is totally confusing from your statements.
• 2) how can be there a non sense term as 'Jewish christians' if jewish is not a race rather a belief?
• 3) where did I had done vandalism?(None of the fellows argued me with vandalism didnt provided any suitable answer for it :P )
• 4) what is the authority/ recorded proof of knanaya stories rather than making songs and stories from the late nineties? the reference provided in the page doesnot go to the pages they mention as the subject.only goes to some knanaya matrimony site.so I think this wikipedia page of knanaya is an index page for knanaya matrimonial sites.
• 5) I repeatedly asked you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism. Israel allocates citizenship based on genetic tests. In the page it is written that 'Ultimate derivation is from the root meaning of "possessive" later meaning "striker" due to renown as smiths among their Kenite ancestors shared with the Druze along with Haplogroup L (Y-DNA) ' . The specified 'L' type is the pre dominent genetics among dravidian troops in Srilanka and Tamil Nadu.(Shame upon the fellow who had written this, unknowingly provided data that they belongs to Srilanka/ Tamil Nadu and came via a ship along with knai thomman :). Unfortunately Israel doesnot recognise those possessing 'L type' Haplogroup as Jewish.You can see more details from the link itself that it is the most predominent one among kallars.(Famous poet Vairamuthu belongs to kallars and Now I came to know the similarities between any charamketti priest along with him).
• 6) as an old doubt can you clarify that why you people's female family members used to tie some (charam or Ash) at the end of the sari's end (konthala) like those does in vellallachetti(a sub group of kallars)'s female members(All fellows having IQ>0 knows that charam in older days used to wash cloths and their occupation was cleaning big peoples dress)? is it a jewish practice? Oh I forgot to say, they also practice endogamy. So I presume that kallars are the lost group of Israel :)
• I dare you fellows to provide sufficient answers to my questions rather than support each other(every Tom,DICK and Harry). Everybody says " oh I support that I support this.." but none is able to provide satisfactory answers regarding their own ancestry. I wish moderators to remove the articles without any valid reference or generally accepted proof like this knanaya article.

202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

1."Ethnicity refers to selected cultural and sometimes physical characteristics used to classify people into groups or categories considered to be significantly different from others

“A race is a biological subspecies click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced, or variety of a species, consisting of a more or less distinct population with anatomical traits that distinguish it clearly from other races"

http://anthro.palomar.edu/ethnicity/ethnic_1.htm

Though race and ethnicity/ethnic groups are related notions, the idea of ethnicity is rooted more in the idea of social grouping, particularly by a collective nationality, tribal affiliation, kinship and descent, religious identification, language use, or specific cultural and traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in the idea of a biological classification.

“Brace has also criticized forensic anthropologists for using the controversial concept "race" out of convention when they in fact should be talking about regional ancestry. He argues that while a forensic anthropologists can determine that a skeletal remain comes from a person with ancestors in a specific region of Africa, categorizing that skeletal as being "black" is a socially constructed category that is only meaningful in the particular context of the United States, and which is not itself scientifically valid.”

C. Loring Brace, 1995. "Region Does not Mean "Race"--Reality Versus Convention in Forensic Anthropology," Journal of Forensic Sciences 40 (#2): 29-33.

2. Jews are an ethnic group NOT a race, my friend. However being Jewish and practicing Judaism are very correlated.

“The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.”

“Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

"The Jewish Problem: How To Solve It". Louis D. Brandeis, "Jews are a distinctive nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station or shade of belief, is necessarily a member" (April 25, 1915), University of Louisville Louis D. Brandeis

School of Law, Retrieved on June 15, 2009

"A history of the Jewish nation: from the earliest times to the present day". Palmer, Edward Henry. 1875. D. Lothrop & Co.. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

"How I Became a Zionist". "The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 7: Berlin Years". "The Jewish Nation is a living fact". June 21, 1921). Princeton University Press. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

“The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered”

Something interesting note, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.”

Sharot, Stephen, Judaism and Jewish Ethnicity: Changing Interrelationships and Differentiations in the Diaspora and Israel, in Ernest Krausz, Gitta Tulea, (eds.) Jewish survival: the identity problem at the close of the twentieth century, pp.87-104

Will Herberg, David G. Dalin, From Marxism to Judaism: the collected essays of Will Herberg, p.240

Someone can be belonging to the Jewish ethnic group but practice Christianity.

“Jewish Christians, also called Hebrew Christians, Christian Jews or Judaizers, were Early Christians who maintained Jewish religious practices, from the period of the inception of Christianity until approximately the fifth century”. Learn more at Jewish Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian.

Joan Taylor, Christians and the holy places: the myth of Jewish-Christian origins, Oxford University Press, 1993 p. 18

3. I haven’t seen any vandalism.

4. I am not sure what you mean by wedding songs. I do agree that this page needs a major cleanup. Everyone needs to discuss changes before making edits.

5. I don’t know why you stated “you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism”. Like you and Avaline, I am not Knanaya and you shouldn’t assume that everyone here is Knanaya. I am unable to provide genetic proof.

However, my friend, Israel does NOT grant citizenship based on genetic tests. You don't need any 'Jewish' genetic proof to become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return, because Judaism is not a race. If you convert to Judaism you can become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return. It doesn't matter what ethnic background you come from. Furthermore family members (spouses, children) are able to obtain Israeli citizenship. Though I don't see what this has to do with Knanaya.

I agree with you. Whoever wrote that DNA summary is writing nonsense. But like I said earlier, Israel does not care about genetic proof.

I have no idea what a “kallar”, “Vairamuthu”, or “charamketti” is.

Since ethnicity is “a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy”, it can be argued that Knanaya people meet these requirements and hence an ethnic group.

Hobsbawm and Ranger (1983), The Invention of Tradition, Sider 1993 Lumbee Indian Histories

Seidner,(1982), Ethnicity, Language, and Power from a Psycholinguistic Perspective, pp. 2-3

Smith 1987 pp.21-22

Whether they are or are not Jewish. What Jewish is really hard to measure and DNA is not going to prove it. As stated earlier, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.” The Knanaya people can fail every single DNA test but use this argument.

6. While I do not understand the majority of what you stated, 202.88.237.74, I know that illogical statements, “female members(All fellows having IQ>0”, will not lead to people considering your argument seriously.

The Knanaya people reminds me of both Crypto-Judaism and Anusim.

The Bnei Menashe are a group of more than 9,000 people from India's North-Eastern border states of Manipur and Mizoram who claim descent from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. The claim appeared after a Pentecostalist dreamt in 1951 that his people's pre-Christian religion was Judaism and that their original homeland was Israel.

The Israeli government announces that the remaining 7,200 can make Aliyah within a 1-2 year period after undergoing a conversion.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3831308,00.html

Hope I helped clear up,

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear friend from Poland,

Please refer the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) type of genetic markers which was developed by israeli scientists to determine jewish identity. If knas had undergone endogamy for 2000 years and of pure jewish origin(as claimed), then their genetic pool may not be disturbed with any other genes and should contain CMH. But none of them (until now ) had tested positive for CMH and also their genetics contains only locally obtainable L Haplogroup. These facts proof that the stories of endogamy is 100% False which makes this article to be deleted immediately.
Apart from that, Wikipedia should say Sorry to World on publishing the false claim of 'Vatican recognised knas as jewish christians' :) In the front page itself.
202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Did you even read anything stated? DNA evidence does not equate to the Jewish identity!

Where are you pulling these claims from? Your hatred for this community unfortunately cannot be used as evidence.

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear A friend from Poland,
I read everything you had written. Who said DNA evidence doesnot equate jewish identity? This is not the case of hatred. This is all about bluffing whole readers of wikipedia. I stated here the need for scientific authenticity (In your terms it is not needed,only an illegal reference is needed?!!!see the knanaya in israel link :) To understand the genetics first search for Cohen Modal Haplotype in wikipedia itself and read thoroughly. kindly note that I dont mix any emotions with truth.

- A friend from India

202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew Transliteration

What transliteration do you think would be appropriate? Knanaya is חנניה in Hebrew. While קנאי which was used previously reads Kanahi. Avalinelemar (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

this chapter in wikepedia is total rubbish

i think before allowing this topic the wikepedia should have checked the authenticity.there is nothing like knanaya penthacost and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.77.96.136 (talk) 16:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Passover

Knanaya continue to celebrate Passover very privately without inviting any Christian friend to share the Holy Meal, in accordance with Exodus 12:45.[12]

more than half of thekubagam do not celibate pesaha actually its a Syrian catholic custom any way fun to read this fantasy:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.37.184 (talk) 23:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

actually i am knanaya and all of my family on both sides including very distant relatives that i know of celebrate that. It is a custom introduced by knanaya but taken by locals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.237.160 (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Plz do not remove POV with out consensus: Kottayam and Chingavanam dioces propaganda

As seen in the archive discussion, Wikipedia is not the place to paste, the extremely volatile fictional content from some story tellers of Kottayam and Chingavanam diocese.Please request the vandalisers to refrain from vandalism and do not remove the POV.

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator.

EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

An early example of faking

I posted the following comment earlier. Each sectional POV's are required since the article is corrupted with propaganda. It has also used the name of some book authors for manipulation.

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Talk on consensus

I propose the opening statement as follows:

"Tekkumbhagar or Thekkumbagar or Southists ( also known with recently concatenated name Knanaya) are a group of Christians in South India who follow endogamy. Since 1910 and 1911, they form separate dioceses in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and Syro Malabar Church. Some of them also has joined Protestant and Pentecostal churches in recent years"

I also propose the following sections for the article:

1. Early History 2. Split of the Community 3. Syro Malabar Church Southists 4. Syriac Orthodox Southists 5. Special Customs 6. Controversies

The content of each of these sections can be discussed by editors with valid citation and reference.68.145.213.14 (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Parochial and partisan view

I'm not concerned as far as you fabricate your own communities history, but please don't try to manipulate entire Syrian Christian history to satisfy your vicious egos. Please don't come across the Nazarani Traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.72.195 (talk) 08:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Black Jews

There is more evidence that the Knanayas are Black/Yemeni Jews. I think this article should state mythical history and actual history. TheReclaimist (talk) 17:26, 01 October 2011 (UTC) Dear TheReclaimist,

I would like to know more details on the evidences put forward. But I have a history (may be a story) which got from the orthodox syrian father during my surprise visit to thiruvithamcode arapally.They are summurized as below.

1) During his missionary travel to India, St.Thomas converted some jews and natives. He preached on ports from palayoor to madras. He was believed to preach in hebrew, where only traders comprising high profile peoples and jews were only know that language.

2) During his visit to Madras(said by father as thoothukudi) one group of people, know as vellallachettikal, who was converted to jewism by jewish missionaries before the arrival of St.Thomas was also converted to christianity. (We had to admit their jewish claims). Vellallachettikal are also now known as Vellalla gauders, who was recently in the news for including them by state govt of Kerala in Scheduled Tribe category. Since Vellallachettikal was very orthodox in nature, they attacked new converts to christianity. They fled from Madras(Say the port presently in Tamilnadu (unknown port), during the reign of mammallan) and was admitted at Thiruvithamcode and settled there by St.Thomas.

3) After 3 centuries, due to some unknown reason, most probably war(it was not disclosed by father) they were left to a port in kerala (some say kollam, others kodungallor) in sailing boats, not via land(because there were enemies in land?!!!). When they landed in kerala, they were not allowed to enter Syrian churches.(Remember recently also Mar Mathew Makkil, who was a southist was not allowed to sit before Bishops of changanassery). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.93.111.243 (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Other myth of knanaya are the people from GOA. Who are in nasranis are syrian christians who are syrians by mother side or father side which are mixed with converts and Goa portughese people knew what to do to see syrian christians and Portughese started to marry more syrian featured people or look like muslim like people or arabic features and what happened these goans people basically collected and they created a community.once they hijacked and emerged to become claim like we are pure syrians other one is there were higher class brahimns and nairs invited to go to a marriage and few members of each families decided to go for the marriage. once they attented the marriage everybody being a group and stated to go back to their home. once they reached the home, elders in those people did not let them inside because they suspect all these people ate meat. and they got seperated and end up merged with christian community and those people only marry to their own group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.166.108 (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Knanaya Traditoins

Passover- Knanaya Catholics truthfully do celebrate passover or "Pesaha", on the night of passover the head of the house the (father or grandfather) remove dried palm leafs (that were in the shape of the cross) from the Pesaha Appam and cut the Pesaha Appam while saying prayers. Soon after the Pesaha Appam is mixed with the Pesaha Syrup and is split between the family.

Endogamy- Today amoung the Knanaya Catholics you can find many individuals or even families that have traits of white skin as in (Caucasian)and auburn hair. Have Knanayas always been endogamous? Who knows but at least we know for a fact that they have for a good 50-100 years.

Marriage- A Knanaite who marries outside his or her community (not necessarily outside his or her Church) is no longer considered to be of the community. If the spouse-to-be is a Knanaite of the other Knanaite Church (either Syriac Jacobite or Syro-Malabar Catholic) that is acceptable. (knowledge all first hand experience , visit to a Knanaya Catholic Church in Houston Texas) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.89.62.248 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

When did the above customs started? Like the battleship galactica happened by having 72 families from israel landed at cranganore or quilon or after the 'Thekkumbhagasamudhayam' published?!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Eliza Joseph - Sadakan.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Eliza Joseph - Sadakan.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Margan David

Magan David or the Star of David has been in use as a symbol of Judaism since the 17th century. It was not a symbol of the Jews in AD 345. So it was impossible for the Knanaya people to sail by a ship under this flag in AD 345. The file Star of David, in this article should be removed and the article needs to be corrected.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Magen David an anachronism

Magen David (Shield of David) is the symbol most commonly used by Judaism today, though this came to popular practice only in the seventeenth century. For more details, see articles related to Star of David or Magen David. There is no chance for Knanaya people to sail under this flag in AD 345 (fourth century) under the leadersip of Knai Thomman. So, this symbol and related explanations are removed from this article.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You are 100% about that statement. The Magen David was not used until the 17th century. However, the Knanaya mythology states that they did use the symbol. Mythologies are not true. The inaccuracies within the Knanaya migration myth is explained afterward. I used the image to represent the Knanaya oral legends. While it may not be true, it provides an insight to what the people believe. TheReclaimist (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Abhay.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Abhay.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Abhay.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

A Remphasis on Neutrality

I would like to put a remphasis on neutrality when it comes to additions and subtractions to this page in specific. One can see several examples of individual opinions and hate mongering with in the talk pages and the the actual wiki page itself. I would like to remind everyone that we are attempting to further academic knowledge here. This is not a platform for people spew their opinions and for individuals to go on rants. This goes for inividuals on both sides of the issue. I understand that it is difficult to find clear and non-diluted facts and historical references for such an obscure topic, but that doesn't mean that it gives individuals an oppertunity to destroy the credibilty of the wiki page. To say that an entire ethnic group history is completly fabricated and thefore invalid is an very extreme proposition. A majority of the arguements for deletion of this page and aswell as addtions/subtractions of this page have been founded on unsound facts and clearly biased opinions. I also agree on the flip side of the arguement that several facts and references about the exact history of the Knanaya people do not use strong sources. This is because of the lack of sources that other topics have the luxury of having. This means that the process of finding credible sources becomes harder, but is not an excuse for individuals to put in their own fabricated facts and biased opinions. This wiki article in no way means needs to be deleted but rather an needs a very thorough examination and evalution of that facts and sources that the article uses.

Kurianjimmy11 (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Template: Top Lie Class articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Rewrite

This article needs a total rewrite. It currently states the claims of Jewish origin as if it were a fact, when this is only one of many variant (and often spurious) claims that exist. The current state is not acceptable.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've made a start toward cleaning up the article, adding necessary citations and replacing uncited or inadequately cited material.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

In response to the anonymous editor who reverted my changes without comment, what exactly is the problem? All the material I added was cited to reliable sources, which is more than can be said about what it replaced.Cúchullain ^t/c 22:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have not read in depth the cited content yet but, hey, if it is sourced then it simply must be better than the unsourced stuff that preceded it. Yes, there might be a few quibbles around the edges but the only valid reason to revert the article would be if all of the sources were fake references. And I can tell you this much: they are not. My knowledge of this subject area is somewhat less than that of Cuchullain but I am learning rapidly that the entire "Jews in India" issue has been massively skewed across numerous articles. It is time that the POV, the misrepresentation and the outright calumnies are fixed, just as I have been doing more generally across hundreds of India caste/community articles. Feel free to discuss, obviously, but please also note that I will revert on sight any unexplained removals of cited content. - Sitush (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

First of all, what you wrote is very poorly written. Example, "The first known writte=n evidence for a division in the Saint Thomas Christian community dates to the 16th century, when Portuguese colonial officials took notice of it." Please at least use spell check first. Furthermore, this entire article relies on one source, Swiderski. The simmilarities between Cochin Jews and Knanaya noted by Weil have been removed among other sources. It's misleading to state that Malayalam is the spoken language by the majority when the majority live outside of India. To group all Knanaya as Christians (Even that is incorrect, no mention of Knanaya Greek Orthodox? Knanaya Jehovah's Witness? Knanaya Pentacostal?) is also misleading. Im ata Yehudi, ata yodea ma omerti. Ani lo ohev et antisemitic beze. Knanaya anashim mevean ivrit, arabit veanglit. Atsuv meod. The Christian bias in this article is too much. - Southernseals90 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've corrected Sitush's minor spelling error. It's telling that you try to portray one very minor spelling error as somehow worse than what appeared in the article before, considering its previous deplorable state. Additionally, focusing on (potential) errors in the infobox is not going to make your case that the previous, poorly cited version was somehow preferable. The several sources I added are all reliable; we are of course open to disussing how to include other sources so long as they too are actually reliable. However, personal comments, edit wars, and tendentious editing will not be tolerated.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am on record as being in need of a new keyboard, and indeed I have a Dell 1545 k/b on order. Sorry for the typo but, hey, spellchecks do not work across the many variants of English. "Simmilarities" - is that correct in any English variant? <g> - Sitush (talk) 01:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church

It is too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church. While in many places outside of India, for example in the US. Knanaya Catholic churches fall under the jurisdiction of Bishop Mar Jacob Agnadiath of Syro-Malabar Church for administrative purposes, in India Knanaya Catholics fall under the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Kottayam. A distinct diocese from the Syro-Malabar diocese in India. As their distinct identity and practices were acknowledged by the Vatican under Pope Pius X, by establishing in 1911 a separate vicariate apostolic under the Syro Malabar Church for the Knanaya Jewish Christians, named the Knanaya Catholic Vicariate Apostolic of Kottayam. It was elevated to an eparchy by Pope Pius X in his Bull “Universi Christiani” in 1923 and to an metropolitan archeparchy in 2005. While they practices the same Eastern rite as the Syro-Malabar church, the dioceses are distinctly different. I feel this generality arises due to modern day interchangeability between the word "church" and "diocese" and I believe the edit I made address the union of the Knanaya Catholics and Syro-Malabar Catholics with loosing key piece of differentiating information of unique identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurianjimmy11 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Is the eparchy not under the jurisdiction of the Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Church? Either way we need to make the distinction clear using reliable sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Citation issues

Does anyone have an objection to converting the current citation style? I rather use {{sfn}} here because it "bounces" the linkage, ie: from the ^[2] to the "Neill (2000), p. 52." and then through to the bibliographic entry. Basically, it improves clarity and reduces the possibility of errors creeping in.

Also, can someone please explain which source is Swiderski 1998a and which is 1988b. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

No objection from me on converting the sources. Swiderski 1988a is "Northists and Southists: A Folklore of Kerala Christians"; Swiderski 1988b is Blood Weddings: The Knanaya Christians of Kerala.Cúchullain ^t/c 12:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Montages

Photo Montages are no logner allowed for ethnic groups? Sorry, this is new to me. The majority of ethnic group pages seem to have them - Malayalis, Tibetans, Tamils, Kurds, Greeks, etc. Greeknaite (talk) 9:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You have slightly misunderstood. Please see User:Sitush/Common#Montages. - Sitush (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I apologize, English is not my first language. But, I am still not understanding. Can you calrify? Greeknaite (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

No problem, although I doubt that I can make it any simpler, sorry.

Indian ethnic articles are quite a messy and contentious area here. Their problematic nature has caused them to be placed under sanctions. While such sanctions are not unique to this group of articles, they do reflect that they are something of a "special case". As things stand, there is a consensus among people who have expressed interest in India-related matters that montages/groups of photos of people in India-related community articles are far more trouble than they are worth and frequently lead to policy breaches etc. The fact that this is not problematic in other areas (as per your examples) is just one of those things.

It is possible that this consensus needs ratification by the wider Wikipedia community and for that reason there is a request for comment in place, as noted on my explanatory page linked above. You are welcome to participate in that discussion but, for now at least, the consensus is that montages should not be present. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

The recent reverts by anonymous editors today are re-inserting some spelling errors and inferior wording, as well as the photo montage which has been removed per discussion above. Revert warring is not appropriate. Please engage in discussion here on the talk page.Cúchullain ^t/c 15:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Fake references

As I have suspected after reading some parts of the article, many references are simply forged by the author/s. Here are some that can only be traced to other wikipedia articles and their mirrors:

1. Jessay, P.M. (1986) "The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala: A Study in Comparison." Symposium.
2. Koder, S. (1973) "History of the Jews of Kerala".The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India,Ed. G. Menachery.
3. Puthiakunnel, Thomas. (1973) "Jewish colonies of India paved the way for St. Thomas", The Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, ed. George Menachery, Vol. II., Trichur.
4. Weil, S. (1982) "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cananite Christians and Cochin Jews in Kerala. in Contributions to Indian Sociology, 16.

Furthermore, reference #18 "Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988" is not appropriate. References should contain at least the ISBN and the page number. If no one objects I will remove those references and the passages supposed to be supported by them.--Rafy talk 01:40, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Given the current poor state of those sections, and of various related articles, I support removing anything that can't be reasonably verified. However, I can confirm that the Shalva Weil source is real:[1] However, I do not have access to it, and unfortunately this work has been misused on Wikipedia (for example see here.) George Menachery's Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia does exist and has been cited in academic works, but it is evidently a self-published work by Menachery, which limits its usefulness here. A lot of the problematic material regarding the Saint Thomas Christians on Wikipedia appears to originate with nasrani.net. It's really too bad.Cúchullain ^t/c 03:00, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

1. appears possibly to be an unpublished paper from a symposium - see the note here
2. definitely exists and is referred to in, for example, this
3. also exists, eg: this
4. exists as a part of Thomas H. Timberg (Ed.), Jews in India (New York- London: Advent Books, 1986), pp. 177-204 and the journal version is cited by numerous other academics, eg: here

Given this, I presume that by "fake" you meant that the references do not support the statements. This happens, of course, but to make the statement you must have access to the sources.

The bundled citation that you object to is most certainly not how I would do things, but your rationale for removal is inappropriate - just fix the citation using the info in the more complete cites found elsehwere in the article and (probably) with some attention to WP:CITEKILL. - Sitush (talk) 03:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Where there's no page number in an obscure work, verification is difficult. I too suspect that a lot of the information has been obscured or exaggerated from the sources.Cúchullain ^t/c 03:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so do I. But the more good faith approach would be to insert {{Pn}} tags etc for a while. My main point here, however, is that to make such a bold statement Rafy must have read these obscure sources. Removing something just because it may be difficult to verify the source is not usually a valid action. As you know, I would be happy to see all Menachery and nasrani.net references removed from all articles relating to these groups (except where they support statements about Menachery or nasrani.net) but I am not sure that we have consensus to do so either locally or at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 03:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there are enough reasons to assume bad faith here. One article that have been recently deleted also use fake references for a Knanya-Greek beauty queen. There are attempts by some wikipedians to emphasise the "Jewishness" of some Christian leaders of the Knanya community by adding funny looking Hebrew names to them such as here and here. I read above as well that others have complained about reference abuse.

The references provided by Sitush concern the Cochin Jewry which may or may not be related to the Knanyas. Anyway, there are tons of reliable and easily verifiable informations about st. Thomas Christians, so I don't understand why do we have to rely on dubious references that are almost impossible to verify.--Rafy talk 14:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Eh? I have provided no references, merely links that show the refs that you mentioned are not "fake" in the sense of being non-existent. Now, have you read those sources or not? - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

BTTW, I may have tracked Jessay down to a printed document. In Kollaparambil, Jacob (1992), "The Babylonian origin of the Southists among the St. Thomas Christians", Orientalia Christiana analecta, Pontificium Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 241, Pont. Institutum Studiorum Orientalium, ISBN 9788872102893 there is a footnote referring to it as "J. Vellian, Symposium, part II, no.3. 67". We need to hit WP:RX, I think. - Sitush (talk) 14:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

A bundle of references (Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988) is used to show that certain traditions are directly descendant from Judaism. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the Holy Qurbana is related to the Syriac term for Eucharest,[2] betrothal prior to marriage is very common in Orthodox Christianity,[3], marriage under a canopy is taken from Hindu traditions,[4], ceremonial bathing is a Syrian Christian tradition,[5] and burials facing east is common in Christianity?[6][7]

After all the Knanyas have been Christian for more than 15 centuries while the controversial Jewish period shouldn't have lasted more than 2-3 centuries at most. Extraordinary claims require clear references so I will remove the paragraph in question if no better sources are provided.--Rafy talk 21:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I would not object to removing that paragraph on the grounds that it's dubious material attributed to an incomplete citation that is very unlikely ever to be completed. However, from what I can deduce it does sound like something that would appear in the Weill work at least. Other material cited to those incomplete citations is not controversial, such as the dates Knanaya dioceses were created in the Orthodox and Catholic churches.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Merchant ship figure

The figure "A colonial era Knanaya merchant ship" looks suspiciously like a 74 or 80 gun double decked ship of the line. Could you please give a reference for this figure, please? The navies of the Keralite kingdoms had access only to smaller ships and if the Knanaya merchants had such powerful ships, then they could have become the second Kunjalis in Kerala history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.225.151 (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it looks pretty dubious. They probably should be removed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Even the paint pattern is that of British ships of the line. Admittedly the East Indiamen of the British East India Company used similar paint patterns, but I doubt any of those, possibly the biggest western-style merchantmen in those waters, boasted two gundecks. I've removed the image. While we're at it, I have similar doubts about the other ship image, "A West Asian or Greek styled Knanaya ship sailing from Kodungallur" - that looks suspiciously like an ancient warship (maybe a liburna), not a merchantman. Two rows of oars and the prow made for ramming are clearly visible. I seriously doubt such ships were used by the Knanaya. Huon (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Traditions and customs Section

Please do not delete this section, I am a Knanaya Catholic and i added it myself. All of you non-Knanayas may have problems with our history and our practice of endogamy but please we truly practice these traditions and customs listed just go to any Knanaya Wedding or other event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia can't accept original research such as this. All material needs to be verifiable through reliable sources. If you have such sources, we can discuss how to add the material.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have reliable resources, from the official Knanaya Congress of the Middle East Website, The official site of a Knanaya Church and the official website of The Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese. I would like you to take note that the Knanaya history written by many random users on here is completely different from that written on the official website of the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese and also that of the official website of the Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America.

Sources-

• http://www.kccme.com/history.html
• http://portal.stjosephsknanayachurch.com/stjosephs/KnanayaTraditions/KnanayaCustoms.aspx
• http://www.kottayamad.org/history.htm
• http://www.kccna.com/node.php?id=2

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

While that's not itself an endorsement of the current article text, the official website of an organization is not a reliable source on that organization's history - at least not if those claims might be controversial. After all, the official website almost by definition has a bias. Huon (talk) 01:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, random users on Wikipedia have a more accurate idea of Knanaya History than Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Archdiocese and Chingavnam Knanaya Jacobite Archdiocese? These users have a more accurate say, than a diocese created by His Holiness Pope St.Pius X and a diocese created by the Syriac Orthodox Church?