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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 85.180.68.212 (talk) at 19:47, 15 November 2012. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Infobox

At some point, it may be useful to insert {{infobox military conflict}}. --Jprg1966 (talk) 17:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Added by LuK3 --Jprg1966 (talk) 20:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

Name of operation

Why have some sources translated Amud Annan as a pillar of defence? Is this a mistake? Ankh.Morpork 18:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The IDF Official uses the name. Poliocretes (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a Hebrew native speaker, and yes it means (lit.) Pillar of Cloud (עמוד ענן). In some Israeli news outlets it was translated "Pillar of Cloud" [1] and some as "pillar of defence"[2] [3]. However, both are mentioned at the begging of the article. And since the IDF website uses the term, as Poliocretes mentioned it should be "Pillar of Cloud". --Midrashah (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the official Hebrew name of the operation is עמוד ענן (Pillar of Cloud literally). However, the English name is "Pillar of Defense" as used by IDF (on twitter for example: https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson). I'd support a move to "Operation Pillar of Defense". Merrybrit (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. The only real meaning of "anan" in Hebrew is cloud. On the other hand, English-language Israeli media are using Pillar of Defense.[4][5] --Jprg1966 (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This should really be moved to Pillar of Defense. Remember that we use the most common English name, not the English translation of the most common foreign language name. This press release from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs uses "Pillar of Defense". So does the New York Times, [Israel Today, and many other US and Israeli news agencies. A google search for Operation Pillar of Defense yields 14.5 million results and a similar one for Operation Pillar of Cloud yields 3.59 million. (Take the google search results with a grain of salt, but I still think there's enough to change the title). Ryan Vesey 23:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Move

Operation Pillar of Cloud → Operation Pillar of Defense – (Copied from my comment above)
We use the most common English name, not the English translation of the most common foreign language name. This press release from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs uses "Pillar of Defense". So does the New York Times, [Israel Today, and many other US and Israeli news agencies. A google search for Operation Pillar of Defense yields 14.5 million results and a similar one for Operation Pillar of Cloud yields 3.59 million. (Take the google search results with a grain of salt, but I still think there's enough to change the title). Ryan Vesey 02:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the official name Pillar of Cloud in Hebrew ?! Unflavoured (talk) 04:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but per WP:COMMONNAME we use the common name in English language sources. The official name in Hebrew doesn't matter. The article would mention the Hebrew name and the English translation for that, but the title should be the English name. Ryan Vesey 04:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of official sources (scroll above to view) are using Pillar of Cloud, as per the official name of the operation. That is to say: It is not just the quantity of sources, but the quality. Unflavoured (talk) 04:36, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only consider the name(s) used by official sources. --130.88.99.220 (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As a side note, Google News generates far more results for "Gaza offensive" [8]. Perhaps, per WP:commonname, after this move, we move the article to 2012 Gaza offensive? Not all operation articles need to have official names. See Normandy landings. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Operation Pillar of Defense" seems like the most appropriate title. I suggest that this move take place shortly rather than wait the 7 days. It appears to be an uncontroversial move to a more accurate title. Seen as this is a massive story it should not be at the wrong name for days. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's probably better to do one move at a time, the current title is clearly not a good one. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I oppose that proposed title. This is a situation involving attacks on Israel too not just Gaza, so the "Gaza offensive" is not an all encompassing title either. Also 2012 Gaza Conflict would be more neutral and probably the most widely used of those two proposals. We should make the basic move of this article to the correct official title of the operation.. which appears to have support. Then immediately start a full discussion on a wider change of the article title/scope. If we did make this current proposed move (to defense rather than cloud, i do totally agree that it should not be seen as justification for no additional move to a wider title afterwards. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:52, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support that is a more neutral title than the current one --130.88.99.220 (talk) 17:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What's wrong with 'Assault on Gaza'? There are various names circulating in Palestinian circles, of which that is the most neutral. I see no reason to use on side's nomenclature over the other's. --130.88.99.220 (talk) 17:54, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The name is dependent on how we frame the article as a whole. What is our frame of reference? If we mean to say that the assassination of Jabari is the beginning of this conflict, then the military operation is probably appropriate as a name, in which case it should match the most common English name in secondary sources (Operation Pillar of Defense). However, if we want to place it in a larger context of recent exchange of fire, we could expand the time frame all the way into October (see background section in article). At that point, we'd have to make it something like "October–November 2012 Gaza Conflict." We will probably have to wait a little while to see what actually happens with this conflict, and if a larger time scale is appropriate. --Jprg1966 (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We could take it back months and months, because the conflict between Israel and Gaza is constant. But that would be silly. We alredy hav' two articles about the constant tit-for-tat between Israel and Gaza. It's better to hav' a focused article about a particular military operation than an unfocused one about months and months of tit-for-tat. ~Asarlaí 18:52, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In regards to anything related to Gaza offensive and assault on Gaza and similar things. I haven't seen any reliable sources referring to the name of this as the Gaza offensive. It is a Gaza offensive so it is likely that there will be many sources talking about the Gaza offensive; however WP:COMMONNAME doesn't tell us to use the most common description of the subject, it tells us to use the most common name. A similar thing would be President Clinton. His official name is William Clinton, his common name is Bill Clinton, but he is also commonly referred to as President Clinton. We use Bill Clinton because it is the most common term used to name him. (Note that this is my interpretation and I'm certainly open to someone's point if they feel mine is wrong). Ryan Vesey 18:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • To add a little bit of support to my statement that Gaza offensive is used as a reference not as a name, note this Reuters article. It refers to it as the "Gaza offensive" (note that offensive is lowercase so it is not a title) it also mentions that it was Operation Pillar of Defense. A blog from Foreign Policy Magazine does the same. The Daily Beast refers to it as an Offensive in Gaza in the title of the article and uses the lowercased offensive when mentioning the operation in the article. This source, although it uses Pillar of Cloud rather than Pillar of Defense, uses the lowercased offensive. The Times uses lowercase offensive as does Haaretz (which also uses Pillar of Defense). Ryan Vesey 19:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - "Operation Pillar of Defense" is the one being used on the IDF website. It also gets more Google hits than both "Operation Pillar of Cloud" and "Gaza offensive" (remember to search from 14 November 2012 onward). I think we should avoid vague names like "Gaza offensive" or "Gaza conflict". Israel has launcht other offensives in Gaza this year. This article is about an IDF operation and Hamas's response to that operation. Using the IDF name doesn't make us "pro-Israeli". ~Asarlaí 18:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"'Support i agree that the article has to be renamed to the Gaza offensive 2012 and why should the page be named with an israeli name, it would be better to rename it with a general name for the article.Alhanuty (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why should the page be named with an Israeli name? Because otherwise we are making the name up. Reliable sources have referred to this as a Gaza offensive, they don't call this the Gaza Offensive. See my explanation above. Ryan Vesey 19:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

previous to November 10

it should be mentioned that previously to November 10 the palestinians also put road side bombs injuring an idf soldier along with firing some 20 rockets into israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.98.212.164 (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How recently before November 10? --Jprg1966 (talk) 21:55, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
4 days prior.Ankh.Morpork 21:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

i believe rocket attacks began from october 24th with 65 frockets fired on israel on that day http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/five_hurt_as_gaza_rockets_pummel_israels_south , and subseqently continued and escalated on nov 11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.98.208.46 (talk) 00:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

not a big event firstly, i don't think that other sources said about this,thirdly pro israeli source talking about the conflict aren't that reliable Alhanuty (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unacceptable Bias

I made additions to the opening paragraph to complement the Israeli view, and they were removed 'because they were not neutral'! What is neutral about this article right now? It is unacceptable to remove facts backed up by reputable news sources because certain editors on here insist that this article be biased against the Palestinians. I demand a reasonable explanation concerning the removal of these two edits. The sources are reputable and back up the content, the formatting is fine, it is necessary to convey the other side's view:

This encyclopaedia must not be allowed to become a mouthpiece for the Israeli government. --130.88.99.220 (talk) 16:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The second of these is not my edit, but was removed for 'violating neutrality'. So now we can't even mention the victims of this attack? It is a statement of fact not an opinion. --130.88.99.220 (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unless the deaths are of notable figures, we do not go into details for the deaths of people on either side. It's completely WP:undue weight. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

for the israeli ambassador leaving Cairo suddenly,it is a fact,and the egyptian government spoke man said that israel has violated an egyptian brokered truce,is also a fact . Alhanuty (talk) 19:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Terrorists or Militants

I'm pretty sure there is a Wikipedia policy about this, but should we use militants instead of terrorists when referring to people fighting in the conflict? Dhawk790 (talk) 16:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should use terrorist, provided it is sourced. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not the place for Israeli propaganda. We should stay neutral. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Militant seems more neutral, but still has negative connotations. Per WP:TERRORIST, we need to have in-text attribution when using the term "terrorist". But it's best to not use it at all, for the sake of avoiding edit wars. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the term "militant" sounds just as bad as "terrorist" and is also inaccurate and misleading. Hamas, claiming to be the legally constituted Palestinian government, should have their forces referred to as "soldiers." We wouldn't call IDF forces "Israeli militants." By further comparison, in the entry FARC, FARC fighters are referred - in several places - as "FARC Soldiers." That said, I wouldn't object to calling non-Hamas Gaza-based forces and independent operators, like the Popular Resistance Committee, as "militants." BlueSalix (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks. Dhawk790 (talk) 16:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
However the term "soldier" holds several implications (some of them codified into int'l law) that afaik don't apply to Hamas fighters, like being organized into a regular army with identifiable uniform and rank, etc.

this article has to stay neutral,and propaganda can't be accepted at all only facts are,and nobody are to write in favor of any side Alhanuty (talk) 19:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

by the way using the term terrorist is very pro-israel,i agree with the term militant or using the term Hamas fighters .Alhanuty (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The term terrorist is not pro-Israel. Is referring to al-Qaeda as a terrorist organization Pro-US? It would only be pro-Israel if we referred to the people as terrorists and the media hadn't. That being said, I'm willing to accept militants as a compromise. Ryan Vesey 19:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Flags

I'm not going to comment on any of the content of the article, as I'm staying uninvolved for administrative purposes, but is it really necessary to have the flags next to the international reactions? MOS:ICON is pretty clear about not using them without good reason, and I'm really not seeing what they add to anything. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But they're pretty... While I'm not the biggest fan of MOS:ICON, I do agree that the flags should be removed. As the material is currently written, it would probably be best presented in a table once the flags are removed. Ryan Vesey 17:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've made the change. Ryan Vesey 19:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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