Jump to content

Talk:Vasily Zaitsev (sniper)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 178.27.32.75 (talk) at 22:48, 17 November 2012 (→contradicting sources). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

His Rifle

Vasily's Rifle Is on display at the starlingrad museum

Untitled

Where did this text come from? Is it copyright? Respectfully -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 22:10 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well, I compiled it from a few sources, Including the books "Enemy at the Gates", and "Barbarossa". Plus I did research on the web and found Interviews with former Russian officials, as well as some other sites that had small references. But since I submitted the original article, it has been mercilessly butchered. Now it reads like Kool-Aid with no sugar. :) - Dan T. d_h_thomp@hotmail.com

The story of the high ranking German sniper who is dispatched to dispose of the pesky Russian peasant is as good a tale as could be told. <--- The Wikipedia does accept tolerated unaccredited opinions nor "fancy prose". In short, no sugar. Pizza Puzzle

I added a picture. Figured if this guy was a hero, then people ought to see what he looks like. --Kross 23:40, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

There's one interesting bit of information I've come across. Vasiliy Grossman, a war journalist who followed the Red Army wrote the following: "Murashev and medical orderly Zaitsev had been sentenced to be executed. Murashev for shooting himself through the hand, the other, because he had killed a famous pilot, who was coming down by parachute from a shot-up aircraft. Execution was commuted for both of them. And now they are both the best snipers in Stalingrad." Since there weren't any other famous snipers who shared the same name, I believe that it is the same man. Is it possible that Grossman was the only person who knew the truth about Zaitsev before the Soviet propaganda turned him into a hero through and through? --149.175.101.103 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zaitsev/Zaytsev is a common name in Russia. Translates to *rabbit* as in Bugs Bunny. I am not sure where you came up with the idea that he was sentenced to death for shooting a soldier trying to parachute into the middle of the Battle of Stalingrad. Sounds like you are making this up or reading bad science fiction. Think about it. It’s the middle of winter, coldest in memory. -20 to -50 degrees, so some joker decided to parachute into Stalingrad. Zaytsev shoots him and gets sentenced to death? Common. I better not see any edits with that tall tale unless you got references from sites other than jokes.com Meishern (talk) 13:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?

Offensive (in my view) info without sources: "in Batyuk's division who in the October Revolution celebrations raised his tally to 149 German kills" Firstly, year is not pointed. Well,suppose that the year is 1942. Then it is claimed that by 1942 November 7 he killed 149 Germans. This needs to be sourced, in source should be written:

  • namely Batyuk's division
  • namely "Germans" (as in the war participated many soldiers from other Axis's countries).
  • namely 149
  • namely by November 7 1942
  • namely "raised his tally", which in particular looks pretty offensive for me as Zaitsev fought for his Motherland against the invaders, not played or did this just for fun.

After this is figured out, you can add it again, as that source's POV in contrast to the POV of my source [1] which I use now to translate the following quote from it into English and replace that unsourced sentence: "К тому времени из простой «трехлинейки» Зайцев убил 32 гитлеровца. В период с 10 ноября по 17 декабря 1942 года в боях за Сталинград уничтожил 225 солдат и офицеров противника в том числе 11 снайперов. " Cmapm 23:41, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Zaytsev was nearly killed by an enemy sniper.[3]" This text has a link that merely records the number of kills each sniper has, like a tally sheet. It has no biographical information about this sniper, much less the claim asserted about him nearly being killed. Further what sniper allegedly nearly killed him? Is this a reference to the fictional duel with Heinz Thorvald? I also would question why is placed in the intro section, if this event did occur, it should be mentioned in the section on WW2. -- cjblair 09:32 4 Nov 2009 (UTC)


I suggest adding something about Tania Chernova.

I added the book "War of the Rats." David L Robbins interviewed Zaitsev and used many books (including "Enemy at the Gates") to create the story of the snipers. A much truer account of the soldier, if you ask me. -cniinc

Who is Professor Filatov and how did he restore his sight? He just came out of nowhere Deus Ex Machina like in the article and cured him seemingly magically.


According to "Notes of a Sniper" the english translation of Zaitsev's own book, there was no Tania Chernova.... You must understand the War of the Rats and Enemy at The Gates have some fictional parts and true parts, some of witch were stolen from Zaitsevs book, as it wasnt printed in english until recently. Zaitsev did have a "thing" for a female nurse he kept running into in his early days in stalingrad, before he was a sniper.

Also, Zaitsev was originally a Seamen, and his unit was transformed into an infantry unit... One of these days i will record all the info out of the book and put it into the wikipage.

Oh, 1 last thing, Zaitsev was in a hospital for most of 1944 with his eye injury from what i remeber, so it wasnt a quick recovery.--Ryan 07:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, so he used to be a navy man after all. I was looking at the photo, and noticed that his belt buckle had an anchor on it - it's the buckle used with navy uniforms. --Bicycle repairman 19:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Move

I suggest moving this to his name without the Grigoryevich, since WP typically doesn't include middle names in titles. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 04:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

how many kills in Stalingrad?

Currently Soviet sniper says that Zaitsev "killed 242 Germans" in the Battle of Stalingrad, this page says he "killed 225 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and other Axis armies", and Battle of Stalingrad says he "was credited with 149 kills during the battle". I don't have a reliable source for what the number should be, but somebody needs to find it and make these pages consistent with one another. Moskvax 02:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of web-sources seem to endorse 242 kills, so I've changed it to that for the time being until someone can find a more reliable source. --Mad Max 18:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Antony Beevor's recently published account of the battle, he says during the battle of Stalingrad itself Zaitsev killed 149, but that the highest scorer was "Zikan" with 224, but I believe that's only for the battle of Stalingrad rather than throughout the whole war. Unfortunately I can't print...but a reliable websource for this information would be nice. (71.192.34.220 05:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Antony Beevor is an unreliable source of data,with he being just one of many rusofobs who writes on subjects he doesn't fully understand with the aim of "making noise" around himself.

Frank Russian (talk) 08:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thorvald

This chap's telescopic sight gets suddenly mentioned with no reference to who he is or any introduction at all. Needs fixing.

I would like to stress the need for this fixing. Zaitsev/Thorvald "duel" should be better explained.200.174.47.180 02:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

date of death??

needs to be more specific. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.34.84.57 (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Call of Duty 2?

What is the deal with the comment about Call of Duty 2 and why should the character in the game be a reference to Zaitsev? The only connection explained is their first name Vasili, which is one of the common Russian first names, resulting in tens if not hundreds of thousands of people named Vasili.

But considering the original Call of Duty stole the whole opening scene of Enemy at the Gates, it cannot be merely a coincidence as the article states now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.225.26.79 (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC). The overall location of the Russian campaign coincides with Zaytsev a bit if you're creative. It's a video game! I feel it's also significant that in the game you receive a Mosin-Nagant as your primary weapon most often when playing as Vasili. and I don't think it's a coincidence that you get to play the Battle of Stalingrad with a scoped Mosin-Nagant as Vasili Ivanovich Koslov and it bears no resemblance to Valsili Zaytsev.[reply]


It is also mentioned on the jewelcase of the game; that a part of it is based on "Enemy at the Gates", which in itself is based on Vasili Zaitsev
As it stands now it is original research. As a previous editor stated, many scenes in Call of Duty and CoD 2 resemble scenes from the film Enemy at the Gates. Even that is original research without a citation, though. Beyond a resemblance to a fictional account of Zaytsev's war experience the link is purely coincidental. Zytsef (talk) 19:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Common people! Call of Duty 8 and Enemy at the Gates, where a Nordic looking Brit played an eastern looking Russian are the sources here? Why don’t we source a Pokemon episode that is loosely based on Call of Duty 12 featuring a sniper fighting robots on Mars. Zaytsev was a real person, not Spiderman. Please base your edits on academic sources, not video games or Asian cartoons. If his deeds were a part of some video game, movie, cartoon or cereal box just include 1 sentence under Notability or Fame. People interested in learning about Zaytsev don’t really care about his portrayal in Call of Duty 4. Meishern (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No land behind the Volga - says whom?

The quote 'There is no land for us behind the Volga' isn't really Zaytsev's invention. It was the credo of many soldiers of the initially trapped Russian 62nd Army, says Antony Beevor in Stalingrad. Why then the remark in the Commemoration section that Zaytsev was buried near a monument that had 'his' quote written on it? I feel it should state something like 'the famous Stalingrad defenders quote'.

"Zaitsev as well as Chuikov both confirm it is Vassili's quote" vintovka762 —Preceding undated comment added 19:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC).[reply]

ElAlamein 22:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Romanization of Vasily's name

Per WP:RUS this article should be moved to Vasily Zaitsev.--71.112.145.211 (talk) 06:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it should be moved there only if sufficient substantiation for such a move is provided (as per WP:RUS#People). Until then, it stays here.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the style guide agrees with you, seeing as how you set all the rules there and rushed it through community acceptance. In any case, you can relax; I don't have the time nor energy to bring attention to the issue. But I will say, for consistency's sake, you have your work cut out for you; Khrushchev (surname) should be redirected to Khrushchyov (surname). Good luck! --71.112.145.211 (talk) 08:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Can relax"? "Rushed it"? What are you talking about? The conventionality clause amending the guideline was a result of almost two years of observations, it was up for community review for one whole month, and, in the end, there was no single oppose vote, only minor concerns, which have been addressed. I'd hardly call this "rushed". So, what seems to be the problem there?
As for moving/not moving this particular article, if you take time to show that it should be moved, and if you provide sufficient proof (which shouldn't be difficult), then the article will be moved. Until that's done, the article title will continue to conform to the main romanization table in WP:RUS. It's as simple as that: if you care about the spelling, you take time to have it changed. WP:RUS provides all the guidelines as to how it should be done. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name

You can spell it Zaitsev, Zaytsef, Zaitzef. But you must pick one of them. If you are an English speaker from Australia you may spell it differently from a New Yorker based on pronunciation. Please don't change the name in the entire article while the URL retains the original spelling. Meishern (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Fiction?

This entire article relies largely on Hollywood and a fiction novel. Vasily Zeytsev may well have been a real sniper. But his reputation was created for political purposes by the Red Army. Hardly a reliable source.JohnC (talk) 10:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Thorvald vs Koning

There have been multiple revisions about this sentence. Please stop doing this unless you got proper references:

Version 1: Zaytsev himself did make mention of the duel in his own biography Notes of a Sniper, in which he commented that he had been up against a very skilled sniper named Thorvald.

version 2: Zaytsev himself did make mention of the duel in his own biography Notes of a Sniper, in which he commented that he had been up against a very skilled German sniper named Herr Koning from Berlin.

Please put proper references in regarding this HERE. Please stop reversing and multi-editing the article.

Lets get some consensus here.

Meishern (talk) 22:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just read the autobiography myself, and I found no mention of the name of the enemy sniper. Vasili discusses the duel, but in my traslation he never mentions the name of the sniper he dueled, nor does he mention him as a super sniper from Berlin. I am now under the belief that neither Thorvald nor König was the identity of the sniper Zaitsev dueled, and that both names have been added retrospectively. I won't delete the name myself (due to not being very familiar with Wikipedia's policy on sourcing and deletion), but I will go ahead and throw my "vote" in that the name should be deleted.204.119.140.66 (talk) 15:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

vintovka762 Go get yourself a copy of Zaitsevs memoirs and you will clearly see Zaitsev calls him "Major Herr Koning" and identifies his as the head of Berlins sniper school! If anyone say's otherwise they have never read the book! —Preceding undated comment added 19:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC).

contradicting sources

Two of the current sources describe the 800m kill for which he was rewarded a rifle and a medal. Problem is that the stories don't match. The http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/military/vasily-zaitsev/ is as in the main text whereas the http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=481 -link describe event quite differently (the officer points out a fascist running not an officer in a window). Does anyone know how to asses these sources so that a more reliable version can be in the text? andreas_td 07:17, 16 Mars 2011 (UTC)

According to Jochen Hellbeck's recent analysis of interviews with stalingrad veterans, Zaytsev described this incident and talked about a distance of 80 meters. Soviet propaganda later changed that to 800 meters. Hellbeck analysed the original material and in the light of this research, the 800m become higly unlikely.

  • Hellbeck, Jochen (2012). Die Stalingrad-Protokolle. S.Fischer ISBN 3100302133.

Photo discrepancy

In the photo of Zaytsev holding his rifle, the Mosin-Nagant has what looks to be a high-powered scope. His gun in the display case shows the more traditional PU scope. What is the cause of the discrepancy here? Trevorzink (talk) 19:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe an anonymous user attempted to answer this but did not provide any sources and wrote in extremely poor English. I undid the edits in hopes that someone else will provide a more enlightening explanation. Trevorzink (talk) 22:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The PU was initially designed for the SVT-40 rifle. A version compatible with the Mosin-Nagant appeared only in the late 1942. At the time most Soviet snipers in Stalingrad, incuding Zaytsev, were using the pre-war made PE scopes, one of which is featured on the photo (taken in October, 1942). Zaytsev has probably changed the scope later. Altough there is a suggestion that this replacement was due to the PE scopes being based on early German prototypes, while the PU was a geniune Soviet design. Hope this helps.--Er&Red (talk) 17:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Death place

It says he died i Kiev, Soviet Union, 15 December 1991. By this time, Ukraine already had gained independence(Did so in August, same year), so should it say "Kiev, Ukraine"? --84.211.0.120 (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Soviet Union was not formally dissolved until December 21 of that year (an act in which Ukraine explicitly participated). I don't think the distinction is really that important for the purpose of this article, though.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 13, 2012; 13:02 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vasily_Zaitsev_(sniper)&oldid=523570822"