Talk:Sumgait pogrom/Archive 1

Comments

A couple of comments. First of, not all the attackers were ethnic Azeris, at least one of them, Eduard Grigorian, was an ethnic Armenian. Further, it is important to note that Sumgait had a very high percentage of people with criminal past, in Soviet times people released from the penitentiary institutions were not allowed to settle in the capitals of the Soviet republics and they were usually settled in one of industrial suburbs, in case of Azerbaijan it was Sumgait. According to de Waal, every fifth Sumgait citizen had previous convictions.

Средний возраст горожан составлял двадцать пять лет, причем каждый пятый житель Сумгаита имел судимость. В период между 1981 и 1988 годами в Сумгаит вернулось более двух тысяч вышедших на свободу заключенных.

Also no mention of Azeri refugees from Kaphan district of Armenia, who arrived to the town just before the riots. This should be corrected. Grandmaster 19:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

All in good timing. This article is far from finished and far from perfect. How valid is the claim of the deaths of the two Azeris? I read that a Soviet military chief in the unit refute the claims which were presented originally by TASS. I'm not sure how well we can rely on the numbers provided by TASS and Pravda either since they had habit of being shoddy on details and concealing the damage done in humiliating cases; afterall we only found out about Chernobyl when we tuned into Turkish television. By the way the term is "in the Soviet 'era'" not times. --MarshallBagramyan 00:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the rules, if you have an authoritative source to back up a certain statement, you include it to the article with reference to such a source. The death of two Azeris near Askeran is confirmed by a number of sources, I can provide you the links. Grandmaster 05:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the deaths of those young men appear to be substanitated well enough in media sources. However, I was refering to the death count of the Armenian dead after the pogrom, according to Russian sources. I was explaining that since they always had a habit of either not reporting or under-reporting the news, the casualty account could also be grossly understated. I'll post more sources after this. --MarshallBagramyan 03:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Like Grandmaster said why is there no mentioning about the Azeri refugees from Kaphan district of Armenia, who arrived to the town just before the riots? This should be added. And why arent the number of deaths no added here? 26 Armenians and 6 Azeris, this should also be added. Baku87 15:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Baku87

This article isn't finished, there is a reason why its titled a "stub". I'll add more on to it and finish up within the next few days/weeks. I'm looking into their testimonies in regards to Azeris who came from Kapan and Masis, I don't know what their presense in the city has anything to do with the riots themselves. There was a testimony by a Georgian living in the city who claimed that many of the statements of alleged torture, rape, coming from those regions were direct provocations in order to encourage the riots to form. I'll check if there is any reason that we should the refugee exodus.--MarshallBagramyan 21:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Quote:

Forewarnings by Azeris sympathetic to their Armenian neighbors instructed them to leave their lights on that night; those who shut it off were assumed to be Armenian.

I think for accusation like this you need a better and more neutral source than Samvel Shamuratian. Grandmaster 17:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well its not Samvel who is saying all this. Its part of a witness testimony. If you want, I can specify that as a footnote and give the exact wording and page number, the story is corroborated by several other witnesses also.--MarshallBagramyan 21:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

There’s too much speculation in those testimonies (or their presentation). I read some of them saying very dubious things, for example that the chief of local communist party organization led the gangs, while in fact he was trying to prevent the pogrom and tried to lead the crowd towards the boulevard away from the city center, but failed. I understand the state of people who gave those testimonies and that it is very hard to neutrally evaluate the events after what happened to them, so it is advisable to use the neutral sources only. For instance, there are a number of books, published in Baku, which presented the testimonies of Khojaly survivors, but I don’t think you would want me to include them into the article about Khojaly. Grandmaster 20:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

From what I understood from the witnesses' testimonies regarding that the First Secretary's role (his name was Muslimzade) was that he was carrying the Azerbaijan flag in the middle. Even so, his attempt to "lead the crowd in a different direction" doesn't really seem plausible nor feasible. Other reports said that he even directed where the gangs to go. When recieving a plea for help by some Armenians held up in a school he promised to send soldiers to help evacuate them. Two hours later the "soldiers" (in plain clothes) arrived with clubs, axes, and armature shafts saying they were their to escort them out of the school. An Azeri guard with the Armenians told the crowd that there were no Armenians and the roving riot moved in a direction the guard pointed out to them; showing that they were sent by Muslimzade himself. Not to mention that this account with leading the crowd is confirmed by others' testimonies including Georgians and Azeris who saw Muslimzade with the flag. The former adding that he saw Muslimzade subtly announcing in a speech that the government would look the other way; he later claims to see that Musilmzade was in a rioting crowd who were harassing two Armenians.

It depends on what the Khojaly survivors claimed. There are some books written by Armenians explaining the situation of Khojaly quite frankly and its a useful source. I'd suggest you to read Monte Melkonian's biography written by his brother Markar, called My Brother's Road who describes what went on in Khojaly and who committed what. If you want, I can even scan and send several of the pages for you.--MarshallBagramyan 22:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)