Talk:Tom Smith (Pennsylvania politician)

Political position re: Abortion

In the political positions section where it states that Tom Smith is pro-life and favours no exceptions for abortions one editor keeps trying to place after the statement "he believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions" the words "including for victims of rape" which is redundant in the fact that no exceptions clearly already means no exceptions. Also to re-emphasize rape which is unnecessary also seems political bias for example if I were to say Barack Obama supports unrestricted access to abortion even in cases of partial birth abortion I would be re-emphasizing the unpopular stance in his position to make him look bad; just saying "he believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions" fully describes his postion on the issue to re-emphasize rape is unnecessary and biased to make him look bad. The source in describing his position only states that he is pro-life with no exceptions, it does not say including for rape though he is later asked a question about rape in the article this was never used in the language characterizing his position since again "no exceptions" covers it already.

Finally if we were to re-emphasize rape it should be "including in cases of rape" very neutral language; not "including for victims of rape" which seems bias and politically charged language. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The initial response by the politician was given to a question framed in the context of rape (see the Akin reference). The politician's later clarification was also given in response to a question framed in the context of a hypothetical rape of his daughter or granddaughter. The cited source is an article about not just his stance, but particularily his stance as it relates to a situation involving rape. Since the source emphasized this, so should our Wikipedia article content. If you would like to go further in adhering to the cited source, we could add his equating rape with having a child out of wedlock: "It is similar." Do you think that is necessary?

As for your opinion that referring to a raped person as a 'victim' is "bias and politically charged language", I really do not know how to respond to that -- and I probably shouldn't, lest I say something that I'd regret. Let us instead just follow Wikipedia policy and convey what reliable sources convey, shall we? From the source (note my underlines):

However, he stumbled when asked about how he would convince a daughter or granddaughter who was the victim of a rape that she should carry her potential child to birth.

Mr. Smith replied that he "lived something similar to that with my own family, and she chose life. I commend her for that."

He added that his daughter wasn't the victim of a rape. Asked what the similar situation entailed, he said she became pregnant out of wedlock.

Asked if having a child out of wedlock is similar to rape, he replied: "No, no, no, but put yourself in a father's position, yes. It is similar. This isn't ..." He trailed off, then continued: "But back to the original, I'm pro-life, period."

He later reasserted that he was not comparing pregnancies from rape and from out of wedlock: "I said I went through a situation. It's very, very difficult. ... I believe life begins at conception. I'm not going to argue about the method of conception. It's a life. And I'm pro-life. It's that simple."

Thank you, by the way, for raising this issue on the talk page. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

First off to say "including for victims of rape" is bias and politically charged language since it is written in a polemic way meant to make Smith look bad while neutral wording would be "cases of rape" since he is against any exception, to include victims seems to be POV since a person arguing against his position would say that to convince someone that his position is wrong for example using that rationale one could say that Tom Smith is against abortion even for poor mothers or any other stark example to argue against his position; which would be POV. Also I would not say Mitt Romney is against abortion except for victims of rape; I would say cases of rape as all other unbias describers would say. You know I'm not saying people who expierence rape are not victims that type of accusation is not conducive towards a civil disscussion and uncalled for.

Secondly the article starts out by saying

Republican U.S. Senate candidate Tom Smith said during a lunchtime appearance here that he does not support any exceptions under which a woman should be allowed to have an abortion.

Then

A questioner after his speech at the monthly Pennsylvania Press Club luncheon asked Mr. Smith about his view on abortion, and noted the recent remarks from Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin that victims of "legitimate rape" are scientifically unlikely to become pregnant.

he did not ask him whether he was against abortion even for rape but for his views on abortion and akin's recent remark about women be able to stop conception during rape; the question was not framed in rape.

The second question mentioned in the article was not whether he was against abortion even for cases of rape but if he would convince hypothetically raped family members to keep the child to birth; this was not his clarification for his postion on abortion but another question asked by a reporter. Never in the article did it say "he believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions including for victims of rape" since no exceptions already includes rape why re-emphasize with extraneous language it you might as well say including for his daughter or granddaughter. Does no exceptions mean no exceptions? just because questions of rape are focused on in the article does not mean we have to focus on it to describe his postion, since wikipedia is not a newspaper so we do not need to summarize news articles but extract the facts from their content like his postion not the reporters' take on it or what they chose to emphasize. Again does no exception mean no exceptions? John D. Rockerduck (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

One would not say a person believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions, even for cases of rape, incest, and at risk to the mothers health because that language is redundant,superflous, and bad grammar since it already stated no exceptions John D. Rockerduck (talk) 21:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• You know I'm not saying people who expierence rape are not victims that type of accusation is not conducive towards a civil disscussion and uncalled for.

I never made that accusation. Please read more carefully.

• "including for victims of rape" is bias and politically charged language since it is written in a polemic way meant to make Smith look bad

No, it is the language used by reliable sources. Granted, the words do not paint a pretty picture, but that is because being a victim of rape isn't pretty -- and the words aren't biased or polemic (can a person really have a bias for rape?). I do not see why you think the Post-Gazette is trying to "make Smith look bad". What you are doing is suggesting that we exchange what is conveyed by reliable sources with euphemisms, and that could be construed as trying to make Smith's statements look less bad. I hope that isn't the case here.

• Again does no exception mean no exceptions?

Apparently not. Look below where Dennis states, "That means there is doubt, at least when it comes to his own family, which opens the door for a possible exception."

I'll continue my discussion below, after Dennis' statements. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You did make that accusation As for your opinion that referring to a raped person as a 'victim' is "bias and politically charged language", I really do not know how to respond to that -- and I probably shouldn't, lest I say something that I'd regret So thats patently false secondly

No, I did not. You've quoted my words, now you should read them. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

secondly nowhere in the article did it say so starkly that "he believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions including for victims of rape" the proper term is cases of rape, your wording not the source's wording (Also you said sources there is only one source)

thirdly no exceptions means no execeptions and if you agree with Dennis than I'll gladly take it out. But the mere fact where talking about his position on the hypothetical rape of his family members is clear sign this section is off kilter John D. Rockerduck (talk) 16:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See my comments below. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

3rd opinion

I was asked to offer an opinion by Rockerduck on my talk page. He and I haven't crossed paths before that I'm aware of, and I haven't added to this article substantially, if at all, so I feel I can be neutral here.

A couple of things bother me with the current quote "and he believes abortion should be banned with no exceptions, including for victims of rape." Saying it as a flat statement seems stronger than the source states. They asked him, he didn't say "yes", he instead compared it to an out of wedlock pregnancy in his family, so he didn't exactly commit to the point that a flat statement is justified. The source says

"However, he stumbled when asked about how he would convince a daughter or granddaughter who was the victim of a rape that she should carry her potential child to birth. Mr. Smith replied that he "lived something similar to that with my own family, and she chose life. I commend her for that."

They said he stumbled, which means he equivocated and never directly answered the question. That is key. And that example wasn't rape anyway. That means there is doubt, at least when it comes to his own family, which opens the door for a possible exception. This makes it more than just splitting hairs. So, it would be WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to claim he would make no exception.

It isn't enough to be true, it has be verifiable so you would have to have a source that flatly says he doesn't support abortion in the case of rape. He was being intentionally vague, I might add, by repeating the same claim more than once "I'm pro-life. Period" as "Pro-Life" may or may not include making an exception for rape, and assuming he doesn't is original research. As such, we are bound by policy to remove that once part simply because he never did directly answer it in the given source.

I would recommend a full qualification and a direct quote from the source, which would be more accurate:

According to the Pittsburg Post-Gazette "he does not support any exceptions under which a woman should be allowed to have an abortion."

This would avoid all WP:BLP and WP:SYNTH issues, and is the most accurate way to make the statement. This leaves the reader to draw their own conclusions, just as this newspaper article did for their readers. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to review the issue at hand and for offering some thoughtful input. I've seen you around enough to have developed confidence in your ability to lend a bit of neutral, reasoned insight, regardless of past interactions. I'd like, however, to offer a slightly different interpretation of some of the points you've expressed above. Perhaps the following additional sources may also be of help in clarifying the matter:

The Philly Inquirer - Additional reporting.

HuffPo - with actual video of the exchange.

Politics-PA - with actual audio of the exchange, transcript, and video of later clarifications.

• Saying it as a flat statement seems stronger than the source states. They asked him, he didn't say "yes",...

Perhaps true, if that single source was all we had to go by. What actually transpired, however, was two reporters asked him specifically if his "no exceptions" included rape and incest, and he firmly responded, "No exceptions." (See the recordings, or the Politics-PA transcript linked above.) That was before the "daughter or granddaughter" scenario was presented.

Vickers: So in cases of incest or rape…

Laura Olson, Post-Gazette: No exceptions?

Smith: No exceptions.

• They said he stumbled, which means he equivocated and never directly answered the question. That is key.

He did indeed stumble and equivocate, but that was when he was equating pregnancy from rape with pregnancy out of wedlock, and he realized (probably from the looks of disbelief, the pressing requests that he clarify what he just said, and the urgency with which his spokesperson attempted to intercede) he had said too much. He had already answered specifically that there was no exception for rape or incest. The only question he never answered directly was how he would convince his daughter or granddaughter.

• So, it would be WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to claim he would make no exception.

I do not see it that way. The synthesis isn't ours; it's from the sources, which is the kind of synthesis Wikipedia seeks. Wording from the Huffington Post says, "he agrees with Akin that abortion should be banned without any exceptions, including for rape and incest victims." The Enquirer states it thusly, "Asked about his stance on abortion during a stop in Harrisburg, Smith said he opposed it in all circumstances, including rape and incest." It would be synthesis on our part to read into it that he might harbor some secret exception for family members only. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 06:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I was using the sources that were cited, which shows why citation is so important as the existing one didn't support the statement for the reasons I gave. The Huffington Post article, however, does make the claim clearly and does so without the sloppiness found in much of the reporting on the issue. As to using "victim" or not, the sources use it and while it is a strong word, it is accurate and we aren't trying to water things down, so it is appropriate. Using a quote might be best here as well, such as

The Huffington Post reports Smith's position as being that abortion "should be banned without any exceptions, including for rape and incest victims." [cite]

This avoids any controversy and is guaranteed to be accurate. Or the other sources can be used, but I think a direct quote (while not required) has advantages here. Normally in an article this short, making such distinctions would be bordering on WP:UNDUE, but since he and the media has made such a large issue of his views, quoting it in this way (imho) is appropriate. Again, this is a 3rd opinion as an editor, not as an admin, and my main concern is that we are extremely careful to be very accurate in how we represent the individual, without sugarcoating it either. There is an mp3 (no need to use that in the cite) and he doesn't actually say "it should be banned without exception..." but he does answer yes quite clearly, so we can attribute the quote to the paper, but not to Smith. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The Huffpost is left-wing media organ it uses biased language, and polemics to support its agenda; again just because we cite a source that uses biased language does not mean we have to use that language, only the facts from it. The paper cites smith's no execeptions position on abortion so let's report that position using neutral language like even in cases of rape. To say victims is the huffposts way of trying to post a visual to make it's case against his position. To describe Obama's position on abortion I would not use a fox news article that says "Obama supports abortion even in cases where the child can life independantly of the mother (partial-birth abortion)" when reporting the facts of that statement I would say "Obama supports partial-birth abortion" free of bias and polemics which do not belong in an enclyopedia since it unlike the Huffpost is not a newspaper John D. Rockerduck (talk) 17:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Victim" isn't really a matter of Huff Post or not Huff Post. It is a word that is generally associated with rape. We wouldn't call them "giver and recipient" or "raper and rapee". And quoting it with Huff's name allows the reader to weigh it themselves. It isn't inflammatory in my opinion, as all crimes have "perpetrators" and "victims" and rape is a crime. What else can we call the person on the bad side of rape? What more neutral word is there? If it were qualified or exaggerated I would see the point, ie: "even for victims of the most brutal rapes". That would be overkill, but calling the victim a "victim" is due to a lack of a better term. While I don't think Huff is the most neutral newspaper in the world, I don't think the NYTimes is either, but they are both still considered reliable sources. Of course, you are welcome to get more opinions or start an RfC. I am not "the authority" here, just another editor. I just tend to default to using the exact terms a source does. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Also note that WP:BLPN is a good board to ask the question as well, since those guys and gals do nothing but deal with BLP issues, which this qualifies as. Since the attitude here isn't so confrontational, an agreement to stick with a decision there would be helpful if you do go. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I gave you a more neutral term "cases of rape" it is more neutral and enclyopedic also that is how political postions are usually described are they not Mr. Brown why change the wording here to paint a picture to make a candidate look bad. Fox News is a reliable source but I would not use there polemics in a encyclopedia. Also cases of rape is a more accurate description since Smith is against abortion in all cases of rape and some cases of rape such as Statutory Rape do not have victims in the sense the article is trying to compare it too. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Again 'victim" is generally associated with rape as "Cases of rape" is generally associated with political postions so then it would be not a matter of Gazette or no Gazette, as well as Huffpost or no Huff post just because thay went with differant wording does not mean were foreced to deviate from the norm John D. Rockerduck (talk) 20:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Again, WP:BLPN is likely the best place to get experienced and neutral opinions on it. You don't need to rebut me, as you indicate in your summary, I'm not debating, I just gave my singular opinion. As I'm not a regular editor here, I'm not taking a side. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If you all want to signal out rape we are at least going to use neutral language, like cases of rape how many times is it described as even for victims of rape for non-op eds it no the majority of articles describe it as "cases of rape" or "even in rape" such as ontheissues.org John D. Rockerduck (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Just added that as a source so now we have use that source (which consequently is more reliable and less bias than the original) also as Dennis Brown stated that original source was not enough to make the conclusion that you did Xeno without original research which is against the rules, so my source however can make an appropiate claim so let's use it's wording John D. Rockerduck (talk) 02:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

The new source said circumstances of rape which at least in my mind equates to cases of rape but added two sources that specifical state that as well. Xeno you need to use the talkpage to change the material don't start edit-warring, finally as Brown and I agree on the article in the post-gazzettee does not state that also in order for you to do it that is WP orginal research. Also the source now cited after that comment is it not even the post-gazzette yet the three sources all cited say circumstances of rape not your wording check out citations here 1 2 3 so here some citations that say cases of rape which is commensurate to circumstances of rape 4 5 but I'll compromise and use circumstances of rape which is the neutral language I'm talking about and since all the sources you put in say circumstances I'm sure you will agree. Secondly WP:scope we shouldn't put in every hot-button question he is asked during his campaign in the political postions section or mention todd akin WP:scope it should be included in the campaign article as it was a campaign event and development. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 19:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Give me a non-oped and reliable source which says verbatim that "Tom Smith opposes abortion with no exceptions, including for victims of rape" then we will talk not the an article that mentions his position on abortion then later mentions victims of rape to describe hypothetical raped family members not his position on the issue John D. Rockerduck (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Statements on family member

John Rockerduck, you referred me to the talk page, but I don't see any consensus here to omit the comments, nor indeed any arguments for their omission (you have argued that the term "victim of rape" is biased and that to even follow the sources by mentioning rape vis-a-vis his abortion position makes him look bad, but I don't think anyone agrees with you there, given that your argument is literally "we are Wikipedia -- we shouldn't be going with what reliable sources say!"). As I said: the comments are part of the general problem that the GOP is having with rape in this election cycle, and Smith's comments are persistent in the sources ([1] and [2] are both from today). Moreover, they are much better sourced than the promotional material that makes up most of the rest of the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I reffered you to the talkpage since Xeno had brought up whether or not to include it and reached no conclusion again the words "victim of rape" are meant to paint a very bad picture (as Xeno has conceded) while the term "cases of rape" is the none op-ed version also the source never had that wording which is political spin, yes the article mentioned rape and abortion but never worded as such whenever the source referred to Smiths position it stated as pro-life and agianst any exceptions. We are wikipedia and we should leave out all spin from OP-EDs and articles meant to paint a candidate in a bad light again is the general description for people who make exceptions not "against abortion except in the cases of rape, incest and at risk to the mothers life; not "gainst abortion except for rape victims" why change it here. Also Dennis Brown agreed to talk it out since it violated WP:synth and WP: original research so your wrong on that point.

That material is for the campaign not his political positions since Wp is not a newspaper just because we cite an article does not mean we need to make sound like a news article. Also the section is too heavily constitiuted on rape it's political positions and why mention Akin at all this section is not about any question a reporter so happens to ask Smith we need only to state his actual postions see WP:undue. Finally that is an campaign event that hardly sparked any national news like the aforementioned Akin. Does the news not use bias language at times if I'm citing a fox news article would I not just cite the facts not it's polemics or spin because I could find Reliable sources to redescribe many prominant democrats positions with but that would be bias just like this section is John D. Rockerduck (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Also you said "As I said: the comments are part of the general problem that the GOP is having with rape in this election cycle" the election cycle is the key word here this is about Smith's political positions not that wider issue that the Gop is having with rape that is a textbook example of WP: undue where that belongs is in The campaign article or the War on Women page which is a page devoted to that problem not in that section. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 20:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how to respond to this comment since pretty much everything you said is simply false. Xeno did not agree that the term "victim of rape" was meant to make Smith look bad; in fact, s/he was offended by that suggestion. The term "victim" appears in plenty of non-opeds; it's in the Post-Gazette source cited. Many sources do single out rape from the "no exceptions" stance. Dennis did not agree to remove the mention of rape, since it appears in reliable sources.

As for the sliiightly more substantive points: no, you are wrong in saying that Wikipedia must merely report the candidate's political positions. He has his own campaign website for that. We don't suppress notable and well-sourced material simply because it might make Smith look bad; that's for the reader to judge, not us to tell them, and I'm sure there are plenty of anti-abortion people who applaud his statements. Re the War on Women article: it is counterintuitive to suggest that the statements must be discussed there and completely suppressed in the article on the person who made them. A reader comes to this article to learn about Smith and will have no way of reading about him in that article without a link from here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

firstly Every thing I said was true here Xeno did concede the remarks did not paint a pretty picture as I said his exact words were "Granted, the words do not paint a pretty picture, but that is because being a victim of rape" so what I said was true you calling it simply false is a lie here Dennis Brown agreed Xeno's language was not in the Post-Gazzetttee he said specifically before anyother additional sources were added "So, it would be WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to claim he would make no exception" again that is not simply false it is true, before calling me a liar read the whole conversation your above arguement is completely false and misleading; Also "sliiiighty" seems condescending to me and uncalled for in a civil disscussion.

Now what other non-op eds I seen none, also I never said wikipedia only has to report on the candidates positions I said the Section on Tom Smith's page that is titled political positions must report on Tom Smith's political positions how is that wrong if you what to make another section fine but it can't be in that section. Secondly your trying to put the narrative of the GOP's problem with rape and abortion this cycle (Todd Akin mostly) into this section is does not belong how are Todd Akins remarks such an important event that they need mentioning on Tom Smith page just because he was asked a question about them so was just about every politician do we include everyone's position on akin's comment on their pages to again Wp scope and WP undue.

And I would like an apology for falsly claiming what I said was false, I can't move on in this disscussion if your going to call me false when I'm telling the truth it makes; it impossible to disscuss anything. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 02:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

So list me other non-opeds that use that language because a Dennis and I agreed on the Post-gazzetteee did not use that language in stating Mr. Smith's position John D. Rockerduck (talk) 02:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If your problem is with the issue being under "political positions" I would be happy to move it elsewhere in the article. If Tom Smith, the article subject, had not made news vis-à-vis Akin's comments, obviously Akin would not be mentioned in this article, but he did, so he is. The Post-Gazette does use "victim" when referring to a raped person in the context of Smith's comments, and I'm not sure how much more clearly I can refer you to an already cited article or make it plain to you that no one but you thinks the term "victim" contains a secret anti-Republican bias. Your sulking about having been called out on posting a comment consisting almost entirely of falsity is your own business. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

He was asked a question about Akin's comments along with most anyother politician, should we then include Akin in everyother politicians who was asked about his remarks poltical positions page. Also Akins remark was only a footnote in the article it was briefly mentioned as being apart of a question, again WP: is not a newspaper we do not have to summarize everything in the article. Also it uses the word victim but never to describe his political postion (which the article only describes as pro-life with no exceptions) but and I asked for articles which decsribe his postion actually postion as that, again from the post-gazzette article just because it mentiones abortion and victims of rape in the same article when referring to different things (victims of rape was used to describe hypothetical raped family members and whether he would convince them to keep the baby not his actual postion on abortion) to put the to togehter is WP orgional research as Dennis Brown stated which you falsley said I lied about did Brown not state that or Did I lie about as you said, which was a reason I was frustrated with you. Your use of the word sulking and misrepresenting my postion is again insulting and violetes wiki Etiquette, please refrain from personal comments. Also your positon makes no sencse to me That if we cite a source that clearly sides with one viewpoint we as wikipedia must side with it as well, wikipedia does not take sides. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

All souces cited even the ones you cited Roclese say "circumstances of rape" and thats verbatim where in the gazzette does it say verbatim that "Tom Smith is against abortion with no exceptions even for victims of rape" again where in the source you reffered me too is it? yes it mentions his position then later victims of rape but in a differant context to put the two together is WP original research and WP synth. read my latest comments above for all the reliable sources that circumstances or cases. Also it is more accurate since not all rape involves victims per se; such as a few cases of statutory rape where it is consensual but still illegal. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 20:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I guess there's some disagreements over the intro to the page, so I thought I'd address it here. Intro sentences should be short, sweet and to the point. Smith was initially a registered democrat until 2011 when he switched parties and ran for senate. Wording it that way keeps it concise as all other articles I see. One example would be Michael Bloomberg's page which words it exactly like that. Please leave thoughts, thanks! MavsFan28 (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The lead section summarizes the content in the body of the article. The disagreement seems to be over the length of time he was a democrat, which is discussed (and sourced) in the body of the article. Perhaps a word search on the word "decades" would serve you well? I also note the juggling of the order of "Farmer", "Businessman" and "Politician" ... with a single sentence in the article on "farmer" and a single paragraph on "business man", compared to 7 paragraphs and multiple sections on politics, I've properly re-ordered those descriptors in the WP:LEADSENTENCE. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 06:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

You didn't really specify that the info was in the source in the body. It doesn't make a lot of sense to source the lead with an article that doesn't mention the facts in question, does it? Again, my point is the begininng should try to be short sweet and to the point. He was a democrat. He changed parties. He ran for Senate. Simple as that. Also, if you bring up wiki policies, it would help if you said how that policy exactly affects the sentence in question. Also....you broke the three revert rule, but I won't throw you under the bus for it :) MavsFan28 (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2012 (UTC)