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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zeq (talk | contribs) at 20:42, 12 May 2006 (→[[True Torah Jews]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

True Torah Jews

I am nominating this article for deletion, I have not seen any evidence that suggests this organization is notable enough for an encyclopedia article. As I said on the article's talk page, when the only source that refers to an organization is the organization's own website it is probably not very notable. Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

google can find who links to a site. It does not look promising for this website. Jon513 09:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - No valid reason to reomve. Verifiably true, and notable enough.--Irishpunktom\talk 23:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional keep - this is a loony fringe, but that isn't enough to make them non-noteworthy. On the other hand, I think that bloger needs to somehow demonstrate that the "group" doesn't consist of two eccentric nutcases. Otherwise, my blog might as well get a listing. :-)--Leifern 23:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. If there are no third-party sources, it's violating WP:V. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Not notable. —Viriditas | Talk 00:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Appears to be a personal unverifiable website, nothing more; the web has millions of them. Jayjg (talk) 00:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Fails WP:WEB (rank 504,601). Regurgitating anti-Zionist views from Satmar, Neturei Karta etc. Own level of observance shadowy. Pretty website, though. JFW | T@lk 02:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, fails WP:WEB and WP:V. The fact that the only means of contacting this alleged organization is by a PMB (private mail box), and the fact that there seems to be no human representative named anywhere who is a leader or even a member of this group raises red flags. There's nothing to establish it as being anything more than the personal website of an anonymous individual. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 04:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Btw, if we check whois the website jewsagainstzionism.com registered to, it is registered through third party domainsbyproxy for the purpose of not making public the owner of the site. Compare it with whois jewsnotzionists.org where at least we can see THAT site is publicly registered to the organization Neturei Karta, the admin being Rabbi Yisroel Weiss, the registrant being David Grossman, there's a street address, a phone number, a fax number, etc. But nothing equivalent for True Torah Jews...just anonymous. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 08:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. I appreciate the response to my article. I now understand the concern of most editors and I will try to address them one by one. One easy thing for everyone to try is doing a Google search on Jews and the Torah True Jews website comes up the 5th. According to that, it’s a busy website and gets many hits External websites linking to this one: A simple search will find many websites linking to this website. About the concern of membership: It’s hard to verify this, because as stated in the discussion page, the group is like an offshoot of satmar and doesn’t keep its own membership, but as I said there the satmar rabbis defiantly back this group as evident by the letter signed by several satmar rabbis. Another example that the consensus in the street is that this group represents satmar is that recently the grand rabbi of satmar passed away upon his passing the PLO mission in Washington sent a condolence letter to the satmar community and the rabbi’s family it did so by sanding a letter to True Torah Jews and asking them to pass the condolences to the community and the rabbi’s family (the letter was widely circulated in the satmar community and I can post it if only someone here helps me in doing so. To be continued ….. Bloger 00:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - Positioning on Google means very little. Anyone can buy google ranking or do something like a Google bomb to move their site ranking up. The fact that a letter was sent on the Rabbi's passing says very little as well as well, IMO. If the long time pastor of a 50-person Baptist Church were to pass away, the church would get letters of condolence, but that doesn't make the 50-person church notable. Can you give us an idea of the membership? Even if you don't know exact numbers, do they have five members, five hundred, or five thousand? If that's a question that you can't answer, then I'm not sure that it's a notable subject for an article. As I said before, a condition of a keep, IMO, would be some verifiable evidence that this organization actually has members that can't be counted on one hand. BigDT 01:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment - You did not understand my point. The mission wanted to reach the “satmar” community (which “is verified” to have tens of thousands of members) they used the channel of the True Torah Jews. In my opinion, this verifies that the conventional wisdom in the street is that the True Torah Jews is the satmar anti-Zionist voice in the secular world. This brings me to my point that even though, to someone that is not evolved in satmar, it is completely new that this group is affiliated with satmar, it is the fact. About membership: the group does not keep its own membership satmar is behind the group and that is were they get there funding by making appeals in the satmat synagogues so they do not need independent membership. Nevertheless, they do keep some kind of membership by sending their weekly newsletter that they send to thousands of subscribers. Bloger 02:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Besides the fact that you have not provided any verifiable sources for these claims, you still persist on making illogical jumps. How in the world do you figure that True Torah Jews in the mouthpeice for the Satmar community. You have claimed to found a source that says three satmar rabbi's have said that they support the organization, but even if that is true how do we know they were acting officially on behalf of the entire Satmar dynasty, and how does showing suport indicate that they are part of the the same organization?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment - sending out a newsletter to thousands of people doesn't really mean anything either per se. I voted in a Republican primary almost ten years ago and ever since then, I've gotten newsletter after newsletter from little tiny non-notable conservative groups that nobody's ever heard of. If this group is, in fact, affiliated with Satmar, why not put a section on them in the Satmar article? I have yet to see anything to convince me that this site/organization is more than a few people. BigDT 04:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. For a website / organization to be encyclopedicly notable, it must do more than simply exist. It must have gained significant attention. There's no evidence that that's the case here. Zaxem 05:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The organization does not exist, it is a cyber-fiction. IZAK 05:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, as per Zaxem and especially MPerel. -- Heptor talk 11:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Heptor and Nom. Zeq 20:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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