Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 139

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iClarified.com and ihackintosh.com

Source: iClarified.com and ihackintosh.com

Discussion: Cydia Talk about use of iClarified.com in Cydia. I'm also wondering if these sources are appropriate anywhere else surrounding topics of Apple devices.

Content: "In addition to offering software to install, in September 2009 Cydia was improved to help users have the option to downgrade (or upgrade) their device to versions of iOS not currently allowed by Apple"

ihackintosh is a blog by a group of three students. iClarified.com does not even have an about page, but WHOIS page indicates its a personal website. Another editor argues that these sources should be admissible, because a few authors of books published through O'Reilley Media suggested these as good sources in their opinion.

It was just that "here are some good sources to check out" and the like. According to WP:SPS, it reads that "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."

Evidence presented me is that possibly reliable sources simply issued opinions as they're "good places" to visit, but the persons behind the sites or the sites themselves have not met the criteria above. So far, it looks like they fall under personal webpage and personal blog category. I'm looking for interpretation on if these sources could generally mean more than such.

Cantaloupe2 (talk) 19:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this for more opinions! Just to note, I'm only interested in using iClarified, not iHackintosh; iHackintosh just happened to be mentioned along with iClarified in one of the books I was looking at. I also don't think that iClarified would be a reliable source for Apple information in general, just useful as a secondary source for a piece of uncontroversial technical material about jailbreaking when only a self-published primary source is otherwise available. (This feature wasn't immediately notable when it was released; it became more important later, so there are better sources available for later details but not much for the initial release.) Also, for transparency: I work for the company that makes this software, although I'm not paid to edit. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of this thread is to evaluate what these sources are suitable for, if at all in general. iClarified, a site that does not provide an about page, a proper business mailing address or the author and its WHOIS inquiry appears to support my evaluation of this source as a glorified personal website. Though it has sourced information, it looks like an aggregation site with one-man job editorial. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

ResearchGate

It's my belief that parts of the ResearchGate Criticisms section do not meet WP:RS and other Wiki guidelines. Specifically, I am referring to the following statements:

Invitation policy ResearchGate has been criticised for sending spam.[10] If a user signs up to ResearchGate, it automatically sends emails to the coauthors of his publications inviting them to join. These emails have a fake sender name and give the misleading impression that they are a personal invitation triggered by the user.

User numbers The claimed user numbers (1.9 Million as of August 12, 2012) contrast to the number of followers for the top topics such as "Science, Engineering and Technology" that have less than 50,000 followers.[11] The official ResearchGate Twitter profile has less than 4000 followers.[12] The number of active users (20% active at least once a month) reported by company founder Ijad Madisch approximately equal the growth rate.

RG Score An experiment conducted by journalist Beatrice Lugger showed that with just a few interactions on ResearchGate, her "RG score" would grow to the top 5% percentile, indicating that the score as of now is barely indicative of scientific impact, and that the majority of users does interact even less.[13] Her ResearchGate profile lists 7 questions and answers posted on the platform and 43 followers as of December 03, 2012; two months after the article was published - a surprising low number to ever have been in the top 5%.[14].

In my opinion, the above statements either separately or together do not meet Wikipedia guidelines WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:SPS, WP:OR, and WP:PSTS. There has been a dialogue about this on the ResearchGate talk page, but no clear consensus or resolution has emerged.

Any recommendations for resolving this within relevant Wiki guidelines would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. JNorman704 (talk) 23:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

You need to provide the sources we are expected to check against.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Please note that this is only one of at least four noticeboards on which JNorman704 has posted his grievance. My take on the situation is here. For simplicity and centralization, I recommend that further conversation simply take place at Talk:ResearchGate. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 15:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Politically Incorrect (blog) - can we use the website as a source about itself?

I've (twice now) added an edit to this article concerning items it sells on its online store - mugs and t-shirts saying "Islamophobic and proud of it". It's been removed twice by the same editor with the claim that we can't use the blog's website itself as a source for what it sells as it is a primary source. The editor gives other reasons at Talk:Politically Incorrect (blog) but if you read the talk page from the top it looks more like an argument over whether the blog is Islamophobic or not, with the editor who is deleting me saying " does not define itself as islamophobe and it does not share any categories with Islamophobia, actually". That's a different issue of course as are the other reasons he gives for deleting me, but his main reason still seems to be his claim that we can't use it as it is a primary source. Note that we not surprisingly are already using the website as a source in the article. Dougweller (talk) 17:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

This a primary source so it better to use it in conjunction with secondary sources.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually I've done that. Ironically, a source that the editor reverted me insists, rightly, is a reliable source, was part 2 of an article, and part 1 leads off with a statement about the mugs and t-shirts. But what is the difference between what I added and the two sentences in the lead "A condensed version of the weblog is available in English.[3] The blog's self-declared goal is to bring news to a wider public attention which it perceives to be ignored or suppressed in the mainstream media due to a pervading "leftist political correctness."[4]" which are both sourced to the website?

The problem is in using of primary sources its deciding what important and what is not i.e WP:UNDUE of course a stated goal of organisation is very relevant to the article but if the organisation notable enough the secondary sources should have discussed their goals but this goes beyond the scope of this board. --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I would actually have to say no on its use as a primary source. It is a blog and really has no editorial oversite. Per WP:PRIMARY:"Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.". I took a look and this really does not meet the criteria as reliably published, which is why blogs are generally not used as primary sourcing unless as part of the subject of another source. Sometimes an RS will not mention a primary source itself but just the facts from it, so a reliably published primary source would add value. If you were to find a secondary source that mentions this site, it probably still shouldn't be used as a primary source in my opinion.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm lost now. Are you saying we can't use it as a source for what it sells in its online store? Are you saying we need to remove the sentences about its self-declared goal and that it has a condensed version available in English? Surely this is a misunderstanding of WP:PRIMARY, and is actually covered by WP:SPS:

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1. the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Dougweller (talk) 10:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Doug. I have such huge respect for you and feel a little odd disagreeing with you, but stating what they sell and using the site as a primary source is unduly self-serving.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

And I wouldn't normally do that, but given the context of a debate over whether it is Islamaphobic it seems reasonable. But, as I said, I found a reliable source stating that they sold the mugs and t-shirts. In the context, I don't think it is self-serving, and certainly not as self-serving as the frequent use of an organisation's website as a source for the organisation's beliefs. Dougweller (talk) 15:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If the content is acceptable, then they are a good source for it. For example, a list of journals published by a society is good content; a list of t-shirt colors from a retailer is not. In the middle, of list of major product lines of a major company can certainly be sourced from their website-. What would be self-servicing is a list of product reviews, if used without any further search for one that might be less favorable. DGG ( talk ) 20:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

www.un.org

Hi,

I have two questions related to the United Nations website :

1. Is this a reliable source to provide geographical and political data regarding a country, such as its borders, its capital, its population, ... ?

2. At worse, in case of controversy on the matter (let's think about Western Sahara claimed by a lot of people), is not the UN's point of view one of the highest due:weight regarding the way wikipedia must display information ?

Pluto2012 (talk) 10:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Per this board rules you should give specific case where you want to use it and in what article.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 10:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Shrike,

Well. I think it is more neutral if the case where it would be applied is not given but we may assume it is good for Western Sahara, Tibet, Israel/Palestine and South Ossetia/Georgia.

Pluto2012 (talk) 16:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Please provide the link to the website in question. The information you are seeking to find an answer to specifically and the articles you are edting that this is needed for. No assumptions please. If this is a broad and general question, it may not have an answer as we can't paint with a broad brush here.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:04, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

eg this one.

But the reliability of a source should not be considered for a given point. It would mean it is examine a source case by case, which is no sense. Pluto2012 (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

"un.org" has been accused of simply following whatever the Generral Assembly deems to be the truth on any given subject -- and is citable as the "UN published position". This is not necessarily exactly the same as "fact" unfortunately. Where disputes exist, the UN is known occasionally to "take sides" in territorial disputes, names of capital cities, etc. Collect (talk) 21:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have sources for such a statement ? And why is "following whatever the GA deems to be the trunth" is not reliable ? Pluto2012 (talk) 00:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually -- one of the perennial fights on Wikipedia is "Palestine/Israel Anything" and thus anything the UN prints relating to that topic (among others) is instantly going to be opposed by someone. Need more examples? Collect (talk) 00:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Although "going to be opposed by someone" is not the same thing as "unreliable". On the assumption that this is about I/P, the UN does not necessarily get the last word on matters of fact, but information stated in WP articles as fact which is inconsistent with information available from the UN should probably not be there. Pluto: if you think this discussion is likely to help then good luck, but I disagree. Formerip (talk) 00:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

It is reliable for the opinions of the UN. That is not the same as being a reliable source of disputed "facts." For example - "is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?" Would you use a UN publication as a source to make it a statement of "fact" to be placed in Wikipedia's voice? Collect (talk) 16:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, Collect, but, if so, all I can say is re-read what I said above. Formerip (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi

How claims that what is on the UN website is unreliable ?

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I would expect it to be a reliable (if rather unexciting) source for most topics. Is there some specific piece of content here, where editors have doubts about the validity of the UN as a source? bobrayner (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

A Texan Looks At Lyndon (A Study in Illegitimate Power)

I am wondering if A Texan Looks At Lyndon (A Study in Illegitimate Power) by J. Evetts Haley is a reliable source for an uncontroversial statement in John Douglas Kinser: "He owned Butler Park, located across the Colorado River in Austin.[2]" According to a September 1987 issue of Texas Monthly (a reliable source) discussing the book: 1) "It was the most controversial book ever written about a Texan, and although it fell quickly into obscurity, it became a cause célèbre of the 1964 election." 2) "At almost 7.5 million copies, A Texan Looks at Lyndon had become the best-selling book of any kind in the country and the most successful political book of all time." 3) It was self-published... "Haley says no publishing house would touch it". 4) Haley carried a vendetta against Johnson and "Historians today dismiss the polemic as a venomous propaganda piece..." I'm not sure how to reconcile this with WP:SPS. Given the book's relative notability, it this something that can be used in other sources, too? Should in-text attribution be required? -Location (talk) 05:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Not using a notable source can give neutrality problems, and lead to us not reporting everything, but if a source is known to take an unusually strong position then we can attribute to it as a specific opinion, or even mention that it controversial.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Since this is a neutral statement, the argument would have to be that the book is so irresponsible that nothing in it could be believed. This may well be the case. But, looking at the article, there are other aspects to the article even more disturbing: only 1 of the 5 references is by a reliable mainstream publisher, and a statement that the jury was stacked, and that a particular named person corrupted it, is attributed to a book by an author promulgating a JFK-LBJ conspiracy theory. The article is also self-contradictory: the first paragraph says his killer was convicted of first degree murder-the last says the tainted trial prevented conviction on that charge. Given the events described, neutral news sources should be available for it. Though the person is known only for having dated LBJ's sister and getting killed by a former boyfriend, there are political implications that might make him notable if they are reported by RSs. If better sources are not forthcoming, I will nominate it for AfD . (If any of the participants were still alive, I would already have deleted it as BLP) DGG ( talk ) 19:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with all of this, and was merely making a good faith effort at WP:BEFORE. #1 and #4 stood out immediately as violating SPS, I thought there might be an exception on this one (due to the notability of the book and the "blandness" of the assertion), and I wasn't sure how to deal with the "Barnes and Noble" publishing reference in #3. Only #5 appears to be "reliable" for an attributed statement (but not enough to establish notability of the individual on its own). Location (talk) 20:51, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

SkyVector

Hi everyone. I have a concern over a SkyVector source on List of airports in the Okanagan, which I am planning to take to featured list status. A peer reviewer suggested that SkyVector could be unreliable, and I am now questioning this noticeboard. I personally do believe it is reliable, but, again, am not exactly certain. I was hoping that the reliable sources noticeboard could help me on this. Thanks, and happy holidays! TBrandley 02:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think they're a reliable source? According to the site's About page, "SkyVector.com was founded in 2005 by a web developer who was learning to fly." Anyone can create a web site. It seems like an WP:SPS to me. A reliable source is one that has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. I did, however, find a favorable article in Flying Magazine[1]. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)