Talk:Pussy Riot/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

biased article

I came to Wikipedia in order to know what the Pussy Riot did and sang in the Cathedral: I can't find anything! Where is the text of their song? --2.40.136.192 (talk) 06:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Except, as noted above, they didn't sing the song in the cathedral. Formerip (talk) 09:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No, they tried to sing, but they were prevented by security guards. They performed one couplet, and no more.--Distant Sun (talk) 10:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

We cannot display the text of the song for legal reasons. That would most likely be a violation of copyright. De728631 (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Ridiculous.--Distant Sun (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

oh please! they put the video on youtube! what copyright are you talking about? --2.40.150.131 (talk) 05:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Text is here. It's not that. Nobody confuses, that the song hasn't (an) author(s) in fact? They never revealed the name of the person who wrote the text. Moreover, I couldn't find it in Internet, and I actually wrote it here by ear.--Distant Sun (talk) 06:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

See here for English translation(s). And BTW, just because something is on YouTube doesn't mean it is not copyrighted. benzband (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

We cannot simply provide a verbatim copy of the song for copyright reason, but we can quote the most important lines and possibly offer an external to link to the full text. Whether video song they publsihed on youtube contains more text (of the song) than they actually managed to utter in the church, might be difficult to judge/research since most reporting (that I#ve seen at least) doesn't make that distinction. One could also ask anyhow whether that (potential) difference really matters for anything.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The importance of partial song inclusion

I wish my English would be good enough to make this change myself, but as it's not, I can only ask anybody to add a section to the original article with elaboration on the actual song's text. There is an important context here: the song that was posted on YouTube (and that has started the outrage) was about Putin mostly. On the other hand, during the trial the word "Putin" was implicitly banned (there is only one or two mentions of this name in the sentence and the judge was hardly avoiding mentioning it) and the whole process was heavily biased to religion questions. This alone shows that "religious" charges are only a justification. 178.178.16.217 (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)Dmitry

The RadFem Hub article

What's the best way to treat the RadFem Hub article on pussy riot? http://radicalhub.com/2012/08/20/pussy-riot-whose-freedom-whose-riot/ It's clearly a polemic piece rather than factual ("anally raped?" come on, there's no evidence they're being raped, or even that actual penetration took place).

RadFem Hub are on the radical fringe of the feminist movement, but still this is an article that stimulates debate, so maybe it's ok to link to it. However it's still a self-published source, essentially a blog. Maybe it would be better to include it in a different section, such as "opinions" or "reactions", where it can be linked to alongside uncritical cheerleading Guardian editorials, Christians who think they should have been "forgiven", Christians who think they should have got 7 years, Russian supremacists who think they should have got the death penalty etc. Thoughts on this anyone? MaxBrowne (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It should be removed altogether. We have clear policy WP:BLPSPS on self-published sources on living persons and the blog post in question is not only anonymous and self-published, but clearly is smearing, including false attribution of Voina's chicken snatching act to Pussy Riot members and other false claims. --M5 (talk) 07:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, but they have some valid points (imo) regarding the male-dominated and arguably pornographic nature of Voina's activities, which are in contrast to the feminist image Pussy Riot project. Maybe if we can find a better source this point of view could be represented in the article. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated

I removed a completely unsubstantiated claim that a Church robbery in Russia was related/inspired by Pussy Riot. My very best wishes (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The Trial

In my opinion far too much space has been given to unimportant stuff like lists of western supporters, quotes from people with no real connection to the case and details of murders that had absolutely nothing to do with Pussy Riot.

There is very little detail on the trial. What claims did the prosecution make? How did the defence respond to them? What witnesses were called? What witnesses were disqualified? What was their testimony? What did the court base its conclusions on? Was it really a "show trial"? Were the sentences in line with international practice for similar offences? We need more of this and less of the "Grotty Hotpants from the Electric Underwear Experience said the sentences were really bad..." MaxBrowne (talk) 14:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree. There is a separate article "Case of Pussy riot" on ruwiki (ru:Дело_Pussy_Riot) about this. It should also be created here. From what I read on Russian news sites, the court was real circus, with judge not allowing testimonies by witnesses of defense and ordering them to leave the court room, with service dogs barking in the court room, and so on. My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Chicken Incident?

In Private Eye magazine (No. 1321; 24 Aug - 6 Sept 2012), mention is made on page 5 to a member of Pussy Riot (or part of the art collective called Voina) entering a supermarket, choosing a chicken and inserting it into her private place. Does anyone have a video - we'd like to see how shocking this is, and to avoid the supermarket.79.70.224.217 (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)PussyRotUK79.70.224.217 (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

That's covered in the Voina article, it doesn't belong in the Pussy Riot article.MaxBrowne (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, unfortunately there's quite some sloppy reporting that pays little attention to the difference between voina and pussy riot, just because one pussy riot members was active in voina too.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the "sloppy" reporting on RT in particular was in fact deliberate slander.MaxBrowne (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources

The article adds a link after stating that some called the Pussy Riot trial a "Show Trial". I'd like to propose an article to cite: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/08/the-non-trial-of-the-century.html does a good job of explaining the whole farce.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.233.234 (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2012‎ (UTC)

The skum

First of all - the original video is not http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALS92big4TY .... on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCasuaAczKY&feature=plcp Second - why people delite our link from New York Pussy Riot supporters http://PussyRiotNY.com ?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Brbnews (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2012‎ (UTC)

"Punk prayer" title - NOT a "western media invention"

It's frustrating that an anonymous editor keeps on insisting that the title "Punk prayer" was a "western media invention" despite all the evidence that the title was used by the band itself.

Here's the video on their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCasuaAczKY. The title is

Панк-молебен "Богородица, Путина прогони" Pussy Riot в Храме

which translates as "Punk prayer "Mother of God, Drive Putin away" Pussy Riot in the Cathedral

Here it is again on their blog: http://pussy-riot.livejournal.com/12442.html

ПАНК-МОЛЕБЕН "БОГОРОДИЦА, ПУТИНА ПРОГОНИ" В ХРАМЕ ХРИСТА СПАСИТЕЛЯ

this time they had "Cathedral of Christ the Saviour" (presumably not enough characters for this full title on youtube).

2 sources that clearly refute this repeated assertion that "punk prayer" is a "western media invention". Can we have an end to this nonsense now please? MaxBrowne (talk) 02:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Opinion pieces/commentaries

I think it should be ok to link to opinion pieces such as that of Paul Craig Roberts under "International Reaction", as per WP:RSOPINION. It's not as if Roberts is just some random blogger. Seems strange that you can link to Kate Nash or Courtney Love's opinion but not Roberts. MaxBrowne (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It's about WP:SPS, rather than who the author is. We never use selfpublished sources for material about living third parties. Formerip (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Pussy Riot members: antisemitic, homophobic, xenophobic

Just watched RT exclusive interview with Putin and Putin said that one of the members of Pussy Riot in the past has staged a protest with effigies calling for Jews, gays, and foreigners to get out of Moscow.

Putin said: "First, in case you never heard of it, a couple of years ago one of the band’s members put up three effigies in one of Moscow’s big supermarkets, with a sign saying that Jews, gays and migrant workers should be driven out of Moscow."

Is this a fact? Why haven't I heard of this anywhere else before? — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Yes, it is. http://www.artinamericamagazine.com/features/the-new-realism/2/Finalyzer (talk) 00:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It's hard to tell if it's a fact, because the Pravda Today interviewer predictably did not challenge Putin on any of his answers. But I'm happy to call bullshit all the same. Formerip (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Like all of Voina's stunts the intention of "In Memory of the Decembrists—A Present to Yuri Luzhkov" was satirical. Putin knows this, he's just being dishonest. MaxBrowne (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Convenient thing, irony...

Group sex better than ordinary

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: "Group sex is better than ordinary. Because like in any team work can take a break." These are the words of Vladimir Putin, in the first interview since his inauguration in May, the Kremlin, published the day before, and a triple Russian President was answering questions from reporters at the Museum in Moscow, where they have orgies 2008th members organized feminists punk group Pussy Riot. "Sex in public is their business, said President Putin, according to the Croatian daily 24 hours, people have a right to do what they want as long as this does not violate the law. Note: President Putin has distanced himself and said that thinking about group sex is not the personal, but from the experiences of people who participated in it. 78.2.79.68 (talk) 15:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

As it has been pointed out several times already, the "group sex" event was staged by Voina not Pussy Riot.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Defining what Pussy Riot is (or is not) for the lead

Granted Pussy Riot are not a "band" in the conventional sense. We don't know much about the musical side of Pussy Riot, such as when or where the tracks were recorded, who wrote them, who played on them. However Tolokonnikova does have a musical background (her mother is a music teacher and she learned piano), so it's quite possible that Tolokonnikova was involved in the recordings in some capacity. Equally, they can be described as political activists or performance artists who use punk rock music as their medium of expression. They have released an "album" of sorts called "Kill the Sexist", available for download. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0

Some have also disputed their "feminist" credentials (e.g. radfemhub). It's true that they didn't mention feminism in their defence during the trial, but that's probably because feminism is stigmatised in Russia. How about this for the description then:

"Pussy Riot is a Russian political activist collective who use punk rock music to protest against Vladimir Putin and to promote feminism and LGBT issues".

Feel free to improve on this description.... I want something that all points of view can agree on. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Category?

What's for special category for this band? "Category:Pussy Riot" contains in Russian, Macedonian and Veps Wikipedies... maybe it's good to create this one in English Wikipedia too?--Distant Sun (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Accidental rollback

My rollback of Finalizer was done accidentally while trying to check my watchlist on my phone, and should not imply this his/her edit was in anyway counterproductive. If you have no clue what I'm talking about please ignore this. a13ean (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Clutter

Several sections in this article are too long and don't form a coherent whole. This is not helped by edits such as this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pussy_Riot&diff=514408617&oldid=514401294

which really don't add any new or useful information but just clutter up the article. See WP:Article_Creep. (talk) 01:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, nothing tells better about the group than their own words. And frankly, "Origins, musical style, and ideology" isn't the worst section, and can be easily split. I think the article doesn't provide enough info about the group, but cluttered by opinions about it. BTW, that's one of the reasons why its neutrality has been questioned. May be we should move all opinions to separate section(s)?Finalyzer (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

NPOV

The article is not presented neutral. It sides with the part of the population who is against their condemnation but does not present the opposite view. If their protest had taken place in a public place, then it would have been a simple problem of freedom of speech. However, regardless of the links between the government and the Russian church, organizing this protest in a church was definitely not a political act but an antireligious act. This raises difficult questions besides the legal sentencing. Would the exterior world have reacted in the same way, if this had taken place in a mosque or a sinagogue? Look at the reaction of the muslim world for an insignificant trailer on the internet. The action has also had unwanted influence on the public opinion in Russia. If an act which is offensive to the Russian Orthodox Church is justified by high profile people like Garry Kasparov, does that not raise an antisemitic sentiment in Russia. People should be free to have any religious beliefs and to have their places of worship, where they are not disturbed by people with different views. The article does not show that by demonstrating for their freedom Pussy Riot has also trampled on the freedom of other people. The article shows the outrage of numerous people against the harsh sentence. It does not show the outrage of the 42% of the Russians (which means about 60 million people) against the form of protest. And it also does not show why all the people who have protested against their sentencing, have not also expressed support for the freedom of religion. Unless these views are presented, the article is not neutral. Afil (talk) 22:23, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Frankly the pieces currently being offered in the interests of "NPOV" are quite weak, and are mostly lame op-ed pieces along the lines of "imagine if they'd done that in a mosque". MaxBrowne (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm done with my piece toward NPOV. I will let someone else to take over, if it's not enough. :-) Finalyzer (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

My feeling is that Afil's complaint about the lack of NPOV was based more on the fact that the article doesn't reflect his own biases than any bias in the article itself. There is already a section for criticism so it's not necessary to pepper the article with links to op-ed pieces just to present minority opinions. Also, some of the sources being offered such as self-published blog entries have never been acceptable on wikipedia. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:55, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

RE: WP:UNDUE edit, please, discuss next time before removing other people's work. Finalyzer (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Majority of criticism is obviously in Russian. Personally, I don't like to reference none-English source in English wiki. BTW, I've replaced links for Abbot Tryphon statements with links to Ancient Faith Radio podcasts. Should be OK now. Finalyzer (talk) 15:00, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Max Browne that criticisms like "And it also does not show why all the people who have protested against their sentencing, have not also expressed support for the freedom of religion" and "Would the exterior world have reacted in the same way, if this had taken place in a mosque or a sinagogue?" are clearly more a single editor's own opinion than an attempt to summarize international coverage of Pussy Riot; the fact that Afil doesn't provide a single source in arguing for changes to the article speaks for itself. Right now the article seems to me a fair summary of the coverage of major international news agencies, and contains several explicit statements about domestic Russian opinion on the band. I suggest the tag be removed. Khazar2 (talk) 23:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I vote for the tag removal. Finalyzer (talk) 00:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor here. I have reviewed the evidence supporting the tag and I do no find it to be compelling, so I am WP:BOLDly removing it. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Copyright issues

Sorry to start a second thread here, but in working through the article's references today I've been noticing several phrases, sentences, and even paragraphs that have been cut-and-pasted from their sources, such as [1], [2], [3] and [4]. If anybody else checking over this article notices any more sections like this, please remove them per WP:COPYVIO and Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Cheers! -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

User:MaxBrowne attempted to restore part of the plagiarized content [5] with no discussion here and the edit summary "Has been reproduced in several other sources so can't be a copyvio." I could be wrong (it wouldn't be my first bone-headed mistake this week), but these two sentences appear to be cut-and-pasted from the source with about three words changed, and the punctuation wrongly taken out of the quotation. Even it does appear in multiple sources word-for-word this way, my understanding is that that wouldn't mean the CBC has abandoned its copyright on the material.

Compare:

CBC: Defence lawyers said they would appeal the verdict, although they had little hope that it would be overturned. "Under no circumstances will the girls ask for a pardon [from Putin]," said Mark Feygin. "They will not beg and humiliate themselves before such a bastard."

Ours: Defense lawyers said they would appeal the verdict, although they did not expect it to be overturned. "Under no circumstances will the girls ask for a pardon from Putin," said Mark Feygin. "They will not beg and humiliate themselves before such a bastard."

At a minimum, this appears to me to be close paraphrasing. There's no reason to so closely copy the phrasing and structure of another writer's work here, and I'm unclear why it was restored. With apologies for the revert, I've again removed the offending material. As a compromise, I've attempted to put in a more extensively reworked version of these sentences. Let me know if the current version is acceptable. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I pulled another para which appeared to me to be almost word-for-word from its original source. Since this is appeared to me a fairly trivial note (praise for the legal strategy by another lawyer), I haven't rewritten it for inclusion. If this strikes anyone else as important, though, feel free to restore a modified form:

Pavel Chikov, Chairman of the Agora Human Rights Association, said that defense lawyers coped very well with the tasks they were set. "You could have bet either on minimizing the potential liability of the girls or on maximizing the publicity surrounding the case. The lawyers for Pussy Riot, in consultation with their clients, chose the second option." But this tactic did not ensure a lighter sentence.Russian Press - Behind the Headlines, October 11 RIA Novosti, October 11, 2012.

Cheers, Khazar2 (talk) 12:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing in "songs and videos" section

A large amount of this section appears to be primarily sourced to Pussy Riot's YouTube videos and some LiveJournal entries. I've attempted to trim it down to only what can be sourced to reliable sources, per WP:RS. Beyond accuracy concerns, I just think it's better that we focus on the performances and songs that reliable sources judged worth discussing, rather than the band's promotional channels. If anyone objects, though, you're welcome to revert me and we can discuss it; the edit can be found here.[6] -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

On a similar note, I removed a wholly unsourced "Discography" section. Again, glad to discuss if anyone would like to, but let's find a source if this is going to stay.[7] -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

An IP has reverted me without discussion here on the grounds that removal of unsourced information is "arbitrary" and "unconstructive". I have to say I disagree. Would anyone care to offer a third opinion? I'll wait a bit in the meantime before reverting, in case she/he returns to discuss. -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Though increasingly suspecting that I'm talking to myself on this page, I wanted to note that I removed this due to WP:BLP. I could be undervaluing this source, but a blog review by a non-notable writer hosted on a non-notable music website doesn't seem like a strong enough source to me to accuse the band of possible copyright infringement. (As editors here may know, the band has a few legal problems already. =)) Perhaps more clearly reliable source for this can be found if it's an important detail?

More broadly, I'll leave a note in the morning at WP:RS/N and get a quick opinion about whether PussyRiot's LiveJournal, YouTube, "zyalt", and other bloggers should be considered reliable sources for this article, and how much weight they should be given. I'm still a bit skeptical about these as reliable sources, but willing to seek an outside opinion; it's possible I'm trying to be too strict here. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the IP, rather than gutting a whole section, couldn't you just add a citation needed note? Nobody seriously questions the details given just because they're sourced to Pussy Riot's livejournal or youtube accounts. This should be ok as per WP:SELFSOURCE.

Also I dispute the "non-notable" description for the louderthanwar.com website. It's more of an online magazine than a blog, and is actually very popular with British punk and indy types (more than 10,000 likes on facebook). There are a number of writers there, most of them established music journalists. It even picked up an award, see John Robb (musician). The claim that the song "Ubey Sexista" was sampled from the Cockney Rejects song is readily verifiable, but has not been widely reported in media (including music press). The Angelic Upstarts sampling is also readily verifiable, but I had to resort to a German article to source that one. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response! Since this is a controversial and highly trafficked article, removing unsourced info and leaving a note here that I had done so seemed like a reasonable step. But since you've requested it, I'm fine with tagging for now and giving you and the IP another few days to find sources for this info.

You may be right about the louderthanwar website, as I'm not familiar with it myself. The three red flags for me were that it 1) was an online publication, 2) lacked a Wikipedia article, 3) had an author whose previous publication credits were primarily "various fanzines and websites". Based on what you say, it's probably a strong enough source for the sampling claim itself, but I still think using it as a source for "raises copyright concerns" as you did requires a more clearly reliable source. It's also giving the copyright issue undue weight if out of the tens of thousands of sources on Pussy Riot, this author is the only one we know of to even mention this issue. When raising legal issues for BLPs, I think it's better to err on the side of caution. Are there other sources that have raised the copyright issue?
As for the rest of the sourcing in this section, as I said above, the problem is two-fold. First, it's not just PussyRiot's self-published material we're relying on here. It's also sources like random bloggers: [8]. Does Zyalt have a reputation as a reliable source I'm unaware of? And again, some of the information in here doesn't appear to be sourced at all.
Second, if Pussy Riot themselves are the only source that's written about these performances, why include them in our article at all? Right now the "Songs and Videos" section appears roughly equal in length to the section on "Arrest and Prosecution", and is longer than the sections "Action in the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour" or "International Support". Hundreds upon hundreds of reliable sources have been written on different acts of support for Pussy Riot--Madonna's statements, RHCP's statements, etc., etc. Why are we giving so much more article weight to an event like the "luxury store district" protest, which appears to have zero reliable sources? My own view is that we should follow the reliable sources in deciding how much article space each topic gets, and I believe this is backed up by Wikipedia policy. I'm up for hearing counterarguments, though--let me know what you think. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:31, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

One of my tags has again been removed by the IP editor, so I'll elaborate here, and hopefully we can discuss. I flagged the sentence "The lyrics also have a sado-masochistic theme" because it seems to me original research to choose what themes of a song are important, instead of relying on reliable sources to do so. And again, as above, if no reliable source can be found that discusses this subject, why are we choosing to emphasize it?

Per WP:OR: "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that their early performances were not considered particularly notable and were not widely reported 'at the time'. They became more notable in retrospect when the group received wide publicity and people wanted to know more about their background. So long as the material is non-controversial (i.e. there is no serious dispute as to the facts), I think Pussy Riot's own blog (and associated blogs such as Verzilov's wisegizmo.livejournal.com) should be accepted as sources per WP:SELFSOURCE.MaxBrowne (talk) 01:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not so much that I'm not willing to accept them as sources for some claims, but I simply don't see the importance of information that few or no reliable sources have found important enough to publish. (Even if the performances are only "notable in retrospect", that shouldn't stop someone from writing about them now.) To put this another way, I could go to Weezer's article and add text that they performed in Boston on such-and-such a day, using a tour website as a source. But why? It dilutes the focus of the article to not focus on the things a group is really known for.

In the "Release the Cobblestones" section, though, there is at least one helpful source about some of the other performances in question: [9]. Perhaps we can use this to reduce our reliance on YouTube videos here. In any case, thanks for being willing to talk it over! -- Khazar2 (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've used that AP source to try to provide information on each song. I shortened descriptions of the performances to more closely parallel sources, and in one or two cases where they seemed to be both unsourced and inaccurate. (For example, are there really multiple women simulating masturbation in the window? It looks to me like one is, for one second, and the other two are playing guitars.) I also tweaked translations of song titles so that they match the source where no other translation/source is provided.

Lastly, I removed a few sentences that still appear to me to be in the neighborhood of original research. I noted the problem with this paragraph three days ago, and it still hasn't been cited:

"Lyrics to most Pussy Riot songs are simultaneously anti-government and pro-feminist. All Pussy Riot songs to date are less than two minutes in duration, with the exception of Putin zazhigaet kostry, which clocks in at two-and-a-half minutes. This underground, studio-only, recording featured brief guitar solos, which increase its length. While consistent with punk-rock style, the short durations of songs performed live are also a pragmatic decision, because of the likelihood that their live performances will soon be halted by authorities."

I also removed two sentences that emphasized particular lyrics or themes in songs without providing a secondary source. Again, if the tens of thousands of sources on Pussy Riot haven't been interested in these lyrics (or translated them for us), no reason for us to emphasize them either. If we can find more criticism of Pussy Riot's music, though, we can expand these sections a bit more (or replace what's there). I have to agree with the New York Times critic quoted at the top of this section, though--to get overly focused on Pussy Riot's music is to miss the point. (Certainly it's not what most reliable sources consider important about them.) Anyway, glad to discuss any/all of this if others disagree. Cheers, Khazar2 (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

... and again reverted without discussion here. [10] To be more clear in case I wasn't above, I used the same AP source for song title translations as for the other sourcing: [11]. It gave slightly different translations in a few cases than the user-generated translations here. (If these are being drawn on other reliable sources though, and I just misunderstood, I'll gladly retract the edits.) Following Wikipedia policies on preferring reliable secondary sources, I think we should use the AP's translations rather than those of our users, but I'm game for hearing any counterarguments. -- Khazar2 (talk) 05:21, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Archives for this page?

Talk page guidelines suggest archiving a page when it exceeds ten main topics; we're in the mid-fifties. Would anyone object to my setting up an autoarchiver for this page? Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I set up Miszabot. Anything commented on in the last 90 days stays on the page, anything older gets archived (with a min. of 6 threads always left on the page.) If there are any objections, feel free to revert me and we can talk it over. Cheers, Khazar2 (talk) 09:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Spat with husband

I cut the following two sentences from the article for now, since they don't appear to have a source and are rather trivial:

Verzilov, who had previously stated himself that he was not an official representative of Pussy Riot,("2 официальных заявления (2 official statements)" (in Russian). Echo Moscow. October 2, 2012. Archived from the original on October 31, 2012. Retrieved October 31, 2012. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)) declined to comment, saying he wanted to find out what happened first. Samutsevich also expressed surprise at the letter, which was also signed, in prison, by Alyokhina.

The last two sentences appear to be an attempt to make Tolokonnikova's statement seem false. (The non-neutral phrasing "icily disowned her own husband" didn't help either). I'm all for putting in a sentence about Verzilov's response if we can find a source, though. I've got Little Miss Khazar calling me just now but I'll look for this in a minute. =) -- Khazar2 (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with the statement from Echo of Moscow. I actually remember taking note of the statement at the time (it was also on the Pussy Riot blog), before Tolokonnikova wrote the letter. Most likely she was unaware of the statement and there was a bit of a communication breakdown (they don't get to surf the net in jail), but people can draw their own conclusions. MaxBrowne (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. I like the way you have it phrased now better than the original, which seemed more to draw its own conclusion between the two. (Maybe it's just putting a little more space between the two statements that helps.) Thanks for the improvement. -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Simon Jenkins' "Tu Quoque"

Simon Jenkins' op-ed piece for The Guardian is a lame Tu Quoque piece. In my opinion it is devoid of intellectual merit and doesn't deserve a mention in wiki. MaxBrowne (talk) 04:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I think I agree that out of the hundreds of op-eds on Pussy Riot, there's no special need to emphasize this one. I wouldn't object if you wanted to remove it. -- Khazar2 (talk) 07:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Finalyzer (talk) 17:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

ok I'll let it go since he's notable enough to have his own wiki page (and a knighthood). I still think his argument is weak. MaxBrowne (talk) 08:29, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

One of them turned up in Oslo

She's wearing the same white, red and blue tunic as Samutsevich was wearing when she got dragged away. Maybe Samutsevich? http://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/Pussy-Riot-er-blitt-storre-enn-oss-Det-er-blitt-en-bevegelse-7029905.html http://eng-pussy-riot.livejournal.com/26309.html MaxBrowne (talk) 06:11, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

ok I guess it's not Samutsevich... she spoke to the conference from Moscow. http://www.osloworld.no/en/artists/seminar/ MaxBrowne (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Appeal

"The new approach chosen by Khrunova closed the way to release that the group tried to follow before by ignoring the court’s proceedings and questioning its legitimacy."

I don't understand this statement. Since when has refusing to recognise a court's legitimacy been an effective defence tactic in any court anywhere in the world? MaxBrowne (talk) 04:57, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I've reworded this a bit to try to make it clearer:

"By arguing that Samutsevich was innocent because she had not participated, Khrunova's defense implied that Tolokonnikova and Alyokhina had in fact committed a crime, and was described by one commentator as cutting off "the one path to redemption that the group actually had: ignoring the court’s proceedings and denying its legitimacy""

Essentially, I think the argument here is that Pussy Riot was never going to win their trial, but can only win by some sort of public pressure route: a pardon, international intervention, etc. By having one of its members take a defense that implies wrongdoing, they present a less unified front. Not saying I necessarily agree, but that's Ioffe's point as I understand it. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)