Talk:Best Buy/Archive 1

Questionable deletions from "Critisms" section ==

Best Buy was under investigation by the attorneys general of several states. Omission of that fact from the criticism section no only violates the NPOV of WIkipedia on this article, it also is misleading. The current editors of this page clearly have a vested interest in the outcome. For example: "On May 26, 2005, Wisconsin Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager filed a lawsuit against Best Buy Co. for alleged mistreatment of customers. This mistreatment included the alleged misrepresentations of product rebates, service plans, and the return & exchange policies." used to be part of the old section and was edited out to make best Buy look better.

I came across the following this morning:

"Best Buy also promotes shady services like installing Norton Anti-Virus on new computers, when all the computers Best Buy sells already come with Norton Anti-Virus preinstalled."

The problem with this statement is, quite frankly, that it does not mention that the computers come with a trial version of NAV installed. Therefore, I'm going to NPOVify it. The reason being is that most -- say 95% -- of computers purchased from a retail store (including Dell) come with trial software. Also, the use of the word "shady" is a POV term and I'll remove that as well. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 15:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

All computers Best Buy sells come with a full version of Norton Anti-Virus with 60 days of free updates. After the the cost of an additional year of updates is $20 USD. I fixed the statement to clairify the fact that Norton Anti-Virus is the full version, and indeed functions properly after the 60 day update period. Masterhomer 18:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Just curious, but do you have proof? -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 21:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It is usually listed in the OEM specifications, and can also be found on websites of the OEMs [1] . It is not listed on Best Buy's website, however. [2] Masterhomer 00:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually Masterhomer you are wrong. Not all machines come with a 60 day trial of Norton. You are correct that many machines are loaded with some form of antivirus but many machines are loaded with antivirus from Norton's competitors. --Kevdog 01:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Response to $100 software setup

Obviously the person who wrote this does not know that most, if not all, computers come with a trial of Norton Internet Security, which includes Norton Antivirus plus Norton Firewall, Norton Privacy Control, Norton Parental control etc. It is now well established throughout the tech-savvy community that Norton Internet Security hogs way too many resources from the computer, degrading its performance. Also, many users of NIS report problems connecting to the internet with ease. This is due mainly to an over-protective firewall. Many average users have no idea how to configure the firewall, thus becomes one of the sources of frustration towards Norton products and computers in general.

Plus, the author was wrong about the spyware protection. No computer comes with a full version of real-time spyware protection.

The purpose of the $118 advanced security setup is to setup the computer with just Norton Antivirus and Webroot Spysweeper ($80 value). Geek Squad installs only these two programs and then sets up the Windows firewall, which is sufficient enough for most computer users. The computer is also optimized by going into msconfig and turning off startup programs, while also tweaking a couple settings in "My Computer" for faster perfomance. Geek Squad also updates Windows XP with the latest critical updates.

As a result, the customer gets an optimized computer with only Norton AV and Spysweeper running in the background, protecting them for a full year. This is not a poor sales practice, it is a valuable service that increases customer satsifaction with the products they buy from Best Buy, thus increasing loyalty for the company.

What the author failed to understand is that most computer users never renew their trial subscriptions, because most of them dont care, that is until they get viruses/spyware. And most customers dont know which programs are best for their computer, security or performance wise.

I will remove this segment from "Poor Sales Practice"

-suprastr8_6er

To add to your comment about the rest of the work done besides the msconfig and performance changes, Best Buy's Geeksquad now implements a tool named MRI Customizer. This tool also removes unneeded programs, desktop icons (special offers, sign up for free trials, etc), and turns off unneeded 3rd party services that come on the computer as well as tuneup startup like msconfig would. These things are not known to the average user (services.msc, etc).

Comment on the "Criticisms" section...

"The cashier at first refused to accept the $2 bills, not knowing that it is actually against federal law not to accept any form of cash payment for a debt..."

Agreed. Unless someone can name a statute requiring it, the statement should be deleted. MFNickster 16:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Not true. At least, I'm 99.9999% sure it's not true. Could someone please backstop me on the following:

It's not against federal law to refuse to accept payment of any sort. It's only against federal law for agents of the federal (and by extension any state or municipal) government to refuse to accept cash for payment of a public debt - in other words, if you try to pay your taxes, your speeding ticket, or your federal flood insurance premiums with cash, the IRS, the Sheriff's Department, or the Dept. of Housing and Human Services HAVE to accept the cash in any denominations. If you go into McDonald's, however, and try to pay for twenty Big Macs with all pennies, they can tell you to get out and never come back - they're a private entity and have that right.

What trips people up is the notation on the front of all US Federal Reserve Notes (that means dollar bills, etc.): "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." All that means is that US Federal Reserve Notes (and by extension, minted coinage) MAY be used as a form of payment for debts. It doesn't mean that it has to be accepted by any entity - the law applying to the federal acceptance mandate is a separate section of the Federal Reserve Act.

Further, this whole story reeks of urban mythitude. I think Best Buy takes plenty of flak without taking fire for hiring incompetent employees. This same story has been told of Taco Bell, and - if memory serves - McDonald's. Can someone post some verification? If it's true, fine, but if it's not, I'm going to weigh in that it should be stricken. If we had to post a note on every WikiArticle about a company in the US that hires incompetent employees, then every US corporation (at least every one with a location in Macon, Georgia) would have to be pegged.

Either way, if I'm right, I think it's a pretty good idea to strike at least the quoted sentence - federal law is confusing enough without someone actively disseminating untruths.

Here's a link to a news article about the incident. I also found a link to the original Baltimore Sun source, but their site is subscription-only, so I didn't read it.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43685

MFNickster 16:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this section should be removed. --Kevdog 02:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC) To add to your comment about the rest of the work done besides the msconfig and performance changes, Best Buy's Geeksquad now implements a tool named MRI Customizer. This tool also removes unneeded programs, desktop icons (special offers, sign up for free trials, etc), and turns off unneeded 3rd party services that come on the computer as well as tuneup startup like msconfig would. These things are not known to the average user (services.msc, etc).

I'd be for removing mention of the $2 bill incident entirely. It's an insignificant isolated incident, even if it's true. Unless it resulted in a major lawsuit or policy change or has happened repeatedly, none of which appear to be the case, it's not really worth adding. If Wal-Mart can kill a guy in the parking lot and not get mention, I don't think Best Buy needs stories like this either.

If you want a dirt story, mention their apology letter for numerous stores forcing Xbox 360 customers to get extra stuff if they wanted their console.

Riotgear 05:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Customer Centricity and Criticisms

I felt a further definition of "Customer Centricity" was inline as it is a *huge* part of Best Buy's current direction. A paragraph was therefore added to the History section following the previous statement about segmentation.

Furthermore, the criticisms here are mostly very subjective and outdated and written in a very biased tone with no qualifying statements. It is highly unlikely that any company that follows the Best Buy model would intentionally practice bait and switch as this would be instantly recognized by the public and be disatrous to the company. Best Buy is the leading electronics retailer in America, they don't need to bait and switch. Having read enough Best Buy literature, the company's training and policies strictly prohibit misrepresentation. As employees are non-commission they have no motivation to intentionally misrepresent product other than poor leadership or lack of knowledge. Rather than altering the criticisms I simply added a qualifying statement to preface them.

Criticisms

The sentence, "Best Buy has many critics of the way they do business." implies that misrepresentation and bait and switch are simply "the way they do business." Someone needs to come up with a better more objective way to phrase this. Most of these criticisms are based on the personal perception of the critic, not on actual business practices.

Bait and switch is not a big part of the criticism of the company, but there was a noteable incident that possibly invovled bait and switch, and invovled thousands of people. Also some critics believe that manipulating stock levels is bait and switch. It is not. But since critics consider it bait and switch and it is a criticism section, it should stay in the section with an explaination of how it's not bait and switch. Masterhomer 05:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Masterhomer, where is it published in a reliable publication that "critics consider it bait and switch" Just because you consider it bait and switch doesn't mean it should be included. --Kevdog 02:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing illegal about refusing cash payment...

... so would the people (mostly people who have something against BBY) stop adding this to the page? From the ustreas.gov site:

"There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy." [3] -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 10:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

It is against against federal law not to accept cash to pay off a debt, for obvious reasons. Maybe the article is not clear, but this guy was not purchasing a product, he was paying a debt to Best Buy, he owed Best Buy money, thus making it illegal for them to refuse any form of cash payment. Masterhomer 04:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Which law is that? It's irrelevant anyway, because the Best Buy staff did not believe the $2 bills were cash. MFNickster 05:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact that it was illegal was a strong part of the criticism of the incident. I can find the exact law, but it is generally printed on every US bill. It should also be obvious to you why it exists. If you owe debt do you want the debt collector to only accept 1958 pennies as form of payment? Technically a retail establishment can create a policy like that, but not for payment of debt. Masterhomer 06:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

If it is truly illegal, then what is the penalty? Please find the law - but be aware that the Coinage Act of 1965 does not set any penalty for refusing cash. A quick Google search turned up no results, so I suspect that there is no such penalty. Please read this page before you reply: [4] MFNickster 14:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no penalty, but if Best Buy accepted the cash payment or not, as long as he offered to pay it, the debt is nullified. So basically, he could have left, and be cleared of his $114 debt to Best Buy legally without actually paying anything because Best Buy refused to accept 'legal tender' for payment of debt. Masterhomer 21:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Well then. If he insisted that he had paid the debt, and Best Buy claimed he didn't, then he might have grounds for a civil suit, but that's a far cry from there being a "federal law against not accepting cash." As far as I can tell, there is no such law. At least, nobody has been able to identify it. The people who criticized Best Buy on those grounds were in error, obviously. MFNickster 05:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: regarding the comment "Right from the same page: "This statute means that you have made a valid and legal offer of payment of your debt when you tender United States currency to your creditor." Absolutely correct, but because you made an offer doesn't mean they must accept it. As I wrote above, the customer may take them to court over the debt, but the police will not come knocking on the business door. MFNickster 07:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit of a red herring, anyway. Best Buy didn't refuse the payment merely because it was cash; if they had been offered $20 bills or had known the $2 bills were legitimate, there would have been no problem. They would have done the same thing if offered $20s that they believed were counterfeit. MFNickster 19:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I concur. This situation was blown up by people on the anti-BBY websites and summarily distorted by the press. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 21:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed... this section should be removed. --Kevdog 02:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Questioning two sectons

I almost made these a part of my last edit, but decided to look for some feedback before doing so.

Is there a source for the claim at the beginning of the "Lawsuits" section? "Best Buy is the second largest target of lawsuits in the United States." It seems like one of those claims that's been exaggerated by repeated retelling. I'm guessing it started off as something far more innocuous, like being the #2 target of lawsuits out of all retail chains, or something similar. Without a source, I think it would be best to remove this comment entirely.

Also, the "other incidents" section under the heading "Criticisms," and the "Incidents" heading, seem redundant. There is a bit of a division, since the "Other Incidents" paragraphs all, for lack of a better term, put Best Buy as the "bad guy", where the "Incidents" (really only one Incident) has the customer acting irrational. I'm not sure how to best correct this. CrayDrygu 03:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Because there is sense of bias I feel it should be removed. --Kevdog 02:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

POV Editing Required ASAP

This entire article is ridden with malinformed comments bordering on malicious libel, as well as revealing portions of Best Buy's business plan that I am sure are intended to be at least somewhat confidential. This article requires editing with extreme prejudice. Phantomopus 18:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Please 'be bold' and edit it! We are all basically volunteer fact-checkers, so anything you can verify and document is very much welcome. If you have any suggestions for better NPOV comformance, please bring it up here on the discussion page. 132.239.194.225 19:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The last time I checked, Best Buy has already disclosed large portions of its business plan. For example, Business 2.0 magazine ran a feature story on Best Buy in late 2004 which was done with the company's cooperation and discussed many of its weird business practices like the regular pep rallies at every store. --Coolcaesar 23:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

--- I agree with Phantomopus that this entire article is laced with comments that are extremely one-sided and shouldn't belong in an encyclopedia.

Examples (and these are non verifiable sources)

However, it is not uncommon for individual locations to suffer from poor leadership that either fails to recognize and correct, or occasionally even encourages, poor salesmanship

Best Buy has at times been accused of bad sales practices, and in general taking advantage of people for monertary gain,

Many ex-employees describe working for Best Buy as "being part of a cult". In order to get product specialists to what Best Buy wants them to, and yet keep them off of direct commission, Best Buy created a "sales culture" within every store.

These goals are known by the company formally as "Step 3" goals, perhaps an analogy to a humorous South Park business plan.

Best Buy has been accused of bait and switch tactics on many occasions, advertising a product and then refusing to sell it at the advertised price. -> This is only part of the story as this was a price advertised online and as many of you know many stores have different prices in their store than online.

One disturbing case involving bait and switch occurred in a Portland store during the initial sale of the XBox 360

Some employees who write to the site have been known to discover it from other employees or from anoymously written sources within the stores (such as in a bathroom stall or in the break room), perhaps signaling that this is a widely known website by Best Buy employees.

When you see the Best Buy encyclopedia entry it seems with the long list of slanted criticisms (which appears to be made mostly by one member that has also been messing around with other wikipedia entries) that all Best Buy stores are bad and that you will get extremely poor service. The reality is that your experience varies store by store and it is very uncommon that you will get treated poorly.

I would like to see the elimination of the criticism section.

I dont personally agree with the criticism section at all..

But if you are to include one, why not make one quick, brief and to the point and without any biased comments (like the microsoft one) like most encyclopedias (if they even include any criticism) And perhaps include the many praise and awards that Best Buy has recieved. Company of the year 2004 by Forbes. Praise for it's innovative ROWE implentation. Marketwatch's survey of having the lowest cost for electronics (even lower than Walmart) And its big contributions to Hurricane Katrina, Toys for Tots, its Teach program, the Best Buy Children's Foundation and its many employee volunteer programs to name a few.

--Kevdog 21:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with this, in fact I would encourage it. Include both complaints and critisms in the article and make sure to link them to articles. A Google news search isn't that hard to execute and should bring up articles for both sides of the spectrum. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 01:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the Microsoft article is a good example. The actual article on Microsoft is quite smaller then the one that one that documents criticism. Masterhomer 21:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

BestBuySux.org

This is not the place for promoting personal web pages

An encyclopedia entry is a statement of facts about a subject. Comparing this article to that of many other articles about similar companies, it is obvious to see that there is a lot of conjecture, unfounded argument, and opinion. I continue to see bestbuysux.org added by Masterhomer in an attempt, I believe, to promote the site. The site is anti-subject. While there are many anti-disneyland, we do not see each one posted in it's article. The article should stick to hard facts about a subject and remain neutral, and never one-sided.

Why is it anti-subject? It is an anti-Best Buy site, and a very large one at that. Most of references for the criticism of Best Buy come from that web site, by employees of Best Buy. Masterhomer 21:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

- Please explain why the opinions of people who post a web forum belong on an encyclopedia entry? --Kevdog 05:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

While there are many anti-disneyland, we do not see each one posted in it's article. Please take a look at the anti-walmart links at the Walmart article. Themindset 18:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

-Again the Walmart controversies are well documented in the mainstream press But we're taking Best Buy's criticisms from disgruntled employees on a web forum? C'mon here. --Kevdog 21:12, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticism Fork

Now that there is a fork I feel the duplicated entries on the main page should be removed.

I also take issue with much of the information on the Criticism page. According to Wikipedia, the material on this site should be verfiable, and unfortunately the material on the Criticsim page is not. Excerpt:

"Wikipedia should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research. The goal of Wikipedia is to become a complete and reliable encyclopedia. Verifiability is the key to becoming a reliable resource, so editors should cite credible sources so that their edits can be easily verified by readers and other editors.

One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher."

--Kevdog 05:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

If BestBuySux.org is reputable is a matter of opinion. None the less, there is at least one hundred media sources that mention or document criticism of Best Buy, and a web search for possible criticisms of Best Buy yields over 20 million web pages. Typically, original research claims require documentation much less then that to be valid. Masterhomer 01:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh really? A google of: "Best Buy" criticism yielded 240,000 hits, the vast majority of which are completely irrelevant. User:Kevdog

Brands

The main article is missing information on the brands from Best Buy, such as VPR Matrix, & Insignia.

• There is some discussion of the brands I wrote in the History section Masterhomer 01:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

PSP/PRP return policy

Please edit your section on Performance Service Plans and Product Replacement Plans (PSP/PRP). Not all PSP/PRP can be returned with in thirty days for a full refund. PSP/PRP can only be returned for a full refund during the return/exchange period for the product that the PSP/PRP is covering. Some products, such as digital cameras/camcorders and Desktop/laptop computers only have a 14 day return policy. To receive a full refund on a PSP/PRP for these items they must be returned with in the 14 days. After that you will receive a prorated amount.

As a Best Buy employee I find this to be a nice entry for Best Buy. Thanks.

Response to PSP/PRP return policy

Actually, PSP and PRP's carry their own return policy independent of the product purchase. You are correct that certain items such as computers can only be returned within 14 days, but PSP and PRP's can be returned for a full refund within 30 days and prorated after that. For reference see the middle portion of the PSP brochure (for CPU & Wireless) under Cancellation: "This Plan can be cancelled by you at any time for any reason by sending to us a notice of cancellation: (a) within thirty (30) days of the receipt of this Plan, you shall receive a full refund of the price paid for the Plan provided no service has been performed, or (b) after thirty (30) days, you will recieve a pro rata refund, less the cost of any service received."

--Kevdog 19:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of Best Buy Criticisms

Somebody keeps deleting my criticism about Best Buy concerning their handling of LJKelley in their Destin Store. LJKelley claims he was treated badly at Best Buy. This is a criticism of the cancelling of RewardZone Certificates with no notification to the customer or handling of this issue properly when a customer tries to redeem such a certificate in the store. Obviously somebody is trying to protect BestBuy or is working for them and deleting certain things.

The criticisms are unverified, original research and do not have a neutral point-of-view; all of which are prohibited on Wikipedia. As well, it is also Wikipedia policy to assume good faith in regards to disagreements, please do not accuse someone of having hidden motives. Paul Cyr 01:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Please also note blogs such as http://www.marklyon.org/wordpress/index.php?p=166 which include comments and various more reports concerning basic Customer Respect and the Lack of Customer Service. There are thousands of these complaints on the internet, yet wikipedia is lacking credibility by not addressing it in this article. There are numerous of people that seem to critice the Customer Service in BestBuy. I still stand on the fact that their are hidden motives here... I could come back here and post hundreds of links to address where someone is cricising BestBuy over this. Here is another site about Reward Programs. http://www.comparerewards.com/archives/000425.html Look at the comments

Blogs are by definition opinion-pieces and are not NPOV. A news outlet would have to have reported on the event to be included. Every business has bad customer service experiences. Per WP:NOT the article is not going to include a list of everyone's experience unless it is shown to be notable by receiving news coverage. As well, please use a colon to indent your comments. Paul Cyr 02:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Best Buy is not orginal research. Over the course of many months POV editors have been making this article look like a investor promotion for Best instead of an NPOV article. As such, I believe an NPOV need should be added to this article.