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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Night w (talk | contribs) at 09:11, 25 February 2013. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured listList of sovereign states is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 22, 2006Featured list candidatePromoted
November 29, 2008Featured list removal candidateDemoted
March 3, 2009Featured list candidateNot promoted
July 16, 2011Articles for deletionKept
March 12, 2012Featured list candidateNot promoted
Current status: Former featured list


China / Taiwan

I see there says China (PRC) is claimed by Taiwan(ROC), but I think it's the other way: Taiwan (ROC) is claimed by China (PRC). Călușaru' (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's both true. PRC claims the territory control by ROC, and at the same time ROC claims the territory control by the PRC. KTC (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UN System membership column cells text

This edit is because "as the note at the top of the column says, we only list UN membership and specialized agencies."

While the footnote of the column contains as part of the explanation the sentence "It also indicates which non-member states participate in the United Nations System through membership in the International Atomic Energy Agency or one of the specialized agencies of the United Nations.", that doesn't mean that the cell text should NOT indicate what the column heading states, e.g. "Membership within the UN System". Not indicating that is inconsistent and self-contradicting.

To correct that I suggest the following changes to be applied to the latest Danlaycock version, in that column's cell texts (item1 is current, item2 is proposed text):

Japinderum (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And just because the title of the column is "Membership within the UN System" doesn't mean that we MUST list every last organization related to the UN. While I understand that you disagree with our choice to only list certain organizations within the UN System, that doesn't make it either "inconsistent" or "self-contradicting". It's a perfectly reasonable decision, for which a prior consensus has been established.
Also, the WHO WTO isn't formally part of the UN System, so to use your argument it would be both "inconsistent and self-contradicting" to list it under the heading "UN System". If you're that concerned about the title, we could change it to "Membership in the UN and its agencies" or something along those lines. TDL (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not "every last organization related to the UN", but only those of The UN System. It's a specific list. It includes both WHO and WTO. Of course, in the source there is a paragraph explaining that status of the World Trade Organization (WTO) is more complex - no "formal agreement with the UN", but "de facto arrangements", "exchange of letters about the relationship", "UN resolution". If required a sentence about that can be added to the footnote.
"choice to only list certain organizations" - here "certain" can't be an arbitrary list cherry-picked by Wikipedia editors. That's why the column is not titled "Membership within organizations we selected".
I don't disagree with what you said, but with the inconsistent and self-contradicting way in which it was done. You want to list only "Vienna formula" organizations (where we have sources explaining why that should be done, what's its meaning, etc.), but you don't want to use that (what's the reason, btw?) and resorted to "UN System" heading instead (aggravating the UN POV problem), because the other options are too unwieldy or otherwise unsuitable. I may disagree with that (or you may disagree with the consequences of that choice), but that's what we have, so "Membership within the UN System" column should mention that membership and not something else. Whether you want to propose a change to the column heading is a separate issue (but I assume arguments about the alternative titles were already discussed and there are no new ones?). Japinderum (talk) 10:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you find problematic only the WTO/Taiwan cell, then let's correct the Vatican/CI/Niue cells as shown above and we'll discuss the WTO additionally. Japinderum (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain: which other "UN System" organizations actually have members? And of these, which are CI or Niue members of?
If you want to mention every UN System organization that a state is a member of, you will of course also need to add "Member of multiple UN System organizations" after every single UN member state. Strangely, you don't seem to be concerned about this "inconsistent and self-contradicting" fact.
I have no desire to change the column title. You raised a concern, I simply provided a solution for your concern. If you don't like my solution, then that's fine with me. The column heading/contents are perfectly acceptable the way they are. You've been beating this poor horse for what, three or four years now? Time to let it RIP. TDL (talk) 11:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding WHO, WTO and "other" organizations - see [1]UN System Organizational Chart: WHO, WTO, OPCW, CTBTO PrepCom.
The change is not because there are "other" UN System organizations that Vatican/CI/Niue are members of, but because that's the column heading.
For the UN members the footnote "All United Nations members belong to at least one specialized agency and..." can be expanded with "and one other UN System organization and..." and there are also other options of dealing with that, but I assume you don't agree with those.
So, is there any reason to keep the inconsistent (with the column heading) Vatican/CI/Niue cells (item1 above)? The proposed item2 text is a minuscule change correcting the inconsistency. Japinderum (talk) 08:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I mistyped WHO instead of WTO previously. The WHO is a specialized agency.
If CI/Niue aren't members of any other UN System organizations (or if there aren't even any other UN System organizations which have members), then your argument to change the text is extremely silly. We can convey more precise information by saying "specialized agencies" than "system organizations". The column contains various types of UN Systems organizations. We simply break it down by category. Would you like to replace every instance of "UN member state" with "Member of UN System organizations"? This is equally as "inconsistent" as listing specialized agencies. TDL (talk) 21:26, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WHO or WTO, both are listed in the UN System sources above.
About the UN members' membership in other UN System organizations - I already told you above - we can do the same as currently done with their membership in specialized agencies - clarify that in the footnote.
About "other organizations" - I already showed you "[2]UN System Organizational Chart: WHO, WTO, OPCW, CTBTO PrepCom.". Leaving aside WHO and WTO, CI and Vatican are members of OPCW and CTBTO and Niue of OPCW. Japinderum (talk) 09:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As per the UN itself, neither OPCW or CTBTO are part of the "UN System". They are listed as related organizations here. If they aren't formally part of the UN System, the don't belong in this column. TDL (talk) 16:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They do not participate in the CEB, but the UN System Organizational Chart clearly includes them. As it's clearly shown the "related organizations" is about them being "related organizations to the UN General Assembly", like the specialized agencies are to the UN ECOSOC, like ICTY/ICTR are to the UN Security Council, etc. Japinderum (talk) 08:22, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, they're related to a UN System organization, but they aren't formally part of the UN System: "Although the OPCW is not formally a part of the UN system". Thus it would inconsistent and self-contradicting to list them under this heading. TDL (talk) 17:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That interpretation may be correct since both OPCW and CTBTO aren't mentioned at [3] (you can see the list of the 29 UN System institutions with emblems, dates of joining the UN System, explanations). Nevertheless I think the shorter texts are better, but expect you to disagree. Japinderum (talk) 10:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
TDL, does this mean that you retract your opinion that OPCW and CTBTO are "UNGA related, not UNSystem related"? So, they are not UNSystem CEB members, but are still UNSystem related, is that what you mean? If so, we can move them from "see also" to "related" section at United Nations System and use item2 texts here.
In support of that opinion of yours you can see official United Nations System of Organizations list - included are WHO, UNESCO, IMF, WBG, IAEA, WTO (and others, bolded because they are UNSystem CEB members) and also OPCW and CTBTO (and others, not bolded). Japinderum (talk) 08:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How can I retract an opinion I never had? If they're related to the UNGA, then they must also be related to the UN system since the UNGA is part of the UN System. Of course, that doesn't make them "a UN Systems organization" and hence they don't belong in the footnote. TDL (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So, in your opinion what is the definition of "UN System organization"? Everything related to the UNGA? Everything related to the UNSystem? Everything member of the UNSystem CEB? You seem to invent a new definition every time depending on what suits you best for the particular debate. I think we should stick to the sources such as the one right above. Japinderum (talk) 07:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UN System column heading footnote

Related to the above discussion I propose the following change in the footnote at "Membership within the UN System [Note 1]" (item1 is current, item2 is proposed text, item3 is proposed text after CMD comment):

  1. This column indicates whether or not a state is a member of the United Nations.[1] It also indicates which non-member states participate in the United Nations System through membership in the International Atomic Energy Agency or one of the specialized agencies of the United Nations. All United Nations members belong to at least one specialized agency and are parties to the statute of the International Court of Justice.
  2. This column indicates whether or not a state has membership within the United Nations System by being member of the United Nations[1] or another UN System institution[2] such as the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and the World Trade Organization.[Note 1] All United Nations members belong to at least one more UN System institution and are parties to the statute of the International Court of Justice.
  3. This column indicates whether or not a state is a member of the United Nations.[1] It also indicates which non-member states participate in the United Nations System[2] through membership in the International Atomic Energy Agency, one of the specialized agencies of the United Nations or the World Trade Organization.[Note 1] All United Nations members belong to at least one specialized agency and are parties to the statute of the International Court of Justice.
Footnotes
  1. ^ a b The status of the World Trade Organization in the UN System is complex, because unlike the specialized agencies it doesn't have a formal agreement with the UN, but its relationship with the UN is defined by exchanges of letters and UN resolutions.[3] Like any other specialized agency's head the WTO's is part of the United Nations System Chief Executives' Board for Coordination.[3]
References
  1. ^ a b c Press Release ORG/1469 (3 July 2006). "United Nations Member States". United Nations. Retrieved 28 February 2011.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ a b The United Nations System organizational chart
  3. ^ a b "The UN System, Chief Executives Board for Coordination". Unsceb.org. Retrieved 2013-01-22.

Japinderum (talk) 10:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The system is not equivalent to the UN, it is subsidiary. This is yet another attempt to try and change the list organisation to your preference, and as with the other attempts, you should drop this one too. CMD (talk) 11:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - for all the reasons explained above. What more is there to say about this? TDL (talk) 20:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
TDL, above you said WTO status is somewhat different from the other UN System institutions, and here I only propose adding a sourced redaction explaining that difference. Any reason to oppose that? Japinderum (talk) 08:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "somewhat different", it's not formally part of the UN System and thus doesn't belong under that heading. And your aren't "only propose adding a sourced redaction explaining that difference". You're trying to broaden the scope of the footnote so that a week from now you can come back and claim that it's "inconsistent and self-contradicting" that we don't list membership of WTO for individual states. TDL (talk) 17:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no such intention - as I explained to you - the footnote already mentions that: "All United Nations members belong to at least one specialized agency and are parties to the statute of the ICJ". I don't nitpick that this sentence doesn't mention explicitly the IAEA ("not exactly" a specialized agency), and I don't regarding the WTO. Besides, if we use item2 text it says "at least one more UN System institution" thus covers specialized agencies, IAEA and WTO. I don't propose mentioning UNESCO or IMF on every row and I won't propose that for IAEA and WTO either.
I don't want to "broaden the scope of the footnote" or of the column. The scope is clear - "Membership within the UN system".
WTO doesn't have a formal agreement with the UN, but its relationship with the UN is defined by exchanges of letters and UN resolutions. That's different from "it's not formally part of the UN System" - it's part, but its participation is defined by documents different from those utilized by most of the other participants. Please read the footnote above and the source - you can see the list of the 29 UN System institutions with emblems, dates of joining the UN System, explanations. Japinderum (talk) 08:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your WP:FRINGE theory is explicitly disputed by multiple sources (including the UN itself): "the World Trade Organization, which is not part of the UN system" "It is true that the key global trading organisation, the WTO, is not part of the UN system" "WTO is the only major international organization that is not part of the UN system". Do you have a single source that says: "WTO is a part of the UN System"? TDL (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources mention the issue in a passer-by simplified way. One is a procurement portal and WTO doesn't participate in that, the other is a volunteer organization, the third is educational institution. In contrast the official UN site "The UN System" clearly includes the WTO among the other UN system institutions. It also devotes a whole paragraph to the "status of the WTO" and what I propose here is only to add a footnote derived from that paragraph (e.g. by removing dates, names of officials, etc.):
"The status of the World Trade Organization in the UN System is complex, because unlike the specialized agencies it doesn't have a formal agreement with the UN, but its relationship with the UN is defined by exchanges of letters and UN resolutions.[3] Like any other specialized agency's head the WTO's is part of the United Nations System Chief Executives' Board for Coordination.[3]" - no part of that text is unsourced. Japinderum (talk) 07:04, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah jeeze, who would believe an educational institution, over Japinderum's unsourced opinions?
I never said the footnote was unsourced. I said your argument that "it's part" of the UN System was unsourced. You can criticize my sources all you like, but even 3 questionable sources beats zero sources any day of the week. And no, your source which conveniently leaves the WTO out of its list of UN System organizations ("The United Nations system is made up of the organizations established by the Charter of the United Nations, that is, the United Nations proper, the specialized agencies provided for in Article 57 of the Charter and a number of programmes established by the General Assembly under its authority derived from Article 22 of the Charter. To this must be added the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) which is not a specialized agency in the strict legal sense.") doesn't support your dubious claim. And no, having a seat on the UNCEB isn't the same as being a part of the UN System.
You want more sources? Try: [4] [5]. Have you found any sources that support your theory that the WTO is part of the UN System yet? TDL (talk) 08:47, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Even these sources you provided mention the "special relationship" or "special status" regarding WTO-UNSystem. UNSystem is not a rigid structure with members, single founding document or whatever. So whether you say "part of", "participates in", "has institutionalized relationship with" or something else may be debatable. And actually being part of the UNCEB (highest decision making organ of the UNSystem) is major part of "belonging to the UNSystem". And as you see in the sources while WTO may lack a single piece of formal negotiated agreement it's still regular full member of UNSystem CEB.
We have the official source "The UN System" where WTO-UNSystem relationship (and WTO's UN System status) is explained - that explanation I propose to use for the footnote (that you admit conveys correctly that part of the source). What we argue about is whether or not we should bother with the WTO at all (e.g. whether to add the "and the World Trade Organization.[Note 1 status explanation]" to the list of organizations after "participate in the United Nations System[2] through membership in...", emphasis mine) - the official UN System source bothers with the WTO, so I don't see any reason for us to deviate from that and avoid it. There is a complexity involved and we can take care of that in the same way as the source - explaining it (in the footnote). Japinderum (talk) 07:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can see it also in official United Nations System of Organizations list, List of Agreements between Specialized Agencies and the United Nations, UN System org.charts [6][7][8]. Japinderum (talk) 10:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The column is titled "Membership within the UN System" not "Membership on the UN System CEB". Of course they have a special relationship, that's why they are "related". If they didn't, they would be "unreleated". But as per every source, they aren't formally part of the UN system and hence don't belong. Since you refuse to WP:LISTEN to my responses, there is no sense in me continuing this discussion. However, please don't make this change as there is no consensus for it. It's well past the time to dropped the WP:STICK on this crusade of yours. TDL (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What every source? I provided you multiple sources showing the WTO is one of the UNSystem organizations. Yes, it's not exactly a specialized agency (there's no negotiated agreement about the WTO-UN relationship) and it doesn't report to the UN, but there are the official exachanges of letters, resolution and decisions establishing the present WTO-UNSystem relationship. Special case, complex status, etc. - that can be easily described in the footnote. Japinderum (talk) 08:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CMD, what do you mean "is not equivalent"? Of course it's not. I don't say otherwise (if you think I say so, then we should redact the part implying so, but I don't see which is that - anyway, see item3 text). And I don't propose any change in "the list organisation" (yes, I disagree with the arbitrary "default view" UN members+observers split, but that's irrelevant for this discussion of "sorting criteria1 column" footnote). What I propose here is that we add the WTO to the footnote so that concerns expressed in above section are taken care of. Regardless whether we change the explanatory footnote or not the purpose and meaning of the column remains the same - "Membership within the UN system". Japinderum (talk) 08:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Palestine

I found it odd that Palestine was listed among bona fide sovereign states, while others with substantial international recognition or varied autonomy are in the sublist. To point: Palestine has no clear territorial boundaries and does not have effective control over that territory (the reasons for which are not in dispute) -- thus, it does not fulfill two of the fundamental tenets of statehood (yet). So, why is it listed above? Is there even a consensus to have listed it above? While I respect the need to have some criteria for such a list and wish the UN was fully authoritative, this page isn't about UN membership and that aspect seems imbalanced and, so, I have moved the entry down. Alternately, ask the question: is Palestine a sovereign state? Is Taiwan? Swipe aside the personal bias to say yes due to other reasons, and I believe the answer will be no. At least Taiwan has a clear domain (after a fashion) and control over its territory. Ergo ... 64.231.179.54 (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's simply the criteria that was agreed upon by a large group of editors over many months of extended discussion. With respect, it's not really up to you to overrule that and insert an entirely "new" criteria. Especially with a set of arguments and a criteria that we've already been through many times. The declarative theory is just one of the theories surrounding the definition of statehood, and while it is in use here we also combine it with the constitutive theory, so as to overcome any technicalities and present the list in a rational and easily recognisable form. Palestine's borders are not legally defined, but neither are Israel's. Palestine does, however, have clear boundaries that are recognised in the UN. It does control territory (it doesn't have to control all of it to meet the requirements of that theory). The parts of the archives dealing with this issue are linked to in the archive box at the top of this page under "Discussion of criteria". Those will contain all the information for why this list is sorted this way. I've reverted your change again. If you still disagree with the setup and wish to make a change to it, I suggest you get some form of consensus for it first. Nightw 00:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
64.231.179.54: If you take a look at the archive, there have already been discussions about this issue. The convention for this list has been that UN member states and observer states are listed first. Recognition by the UN is representative of the more rigorous constitutive theory of statehood. After that list, other states are listed under the less rigorous declarative theory of statehood. This has long been the consensus for the list and you haven't stated a compelling reason to change it. – Zntrip 00:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how salient this consensus is. It seems that there is a lot of blown smoke in a veiled attempt to 'wish' Palestine to be a sovereign state despite other examples. NightW: the two points regarding statehood of Palestine (or lack of) are from its entry in the article itself. Zntrip: you cannot use two distinct theories on statehood for each section, nor place one above the other - nothing exists in isolation. I iterate the comparison to Taiwan, which has more of a claim (on the face of it) than Palestine now does, yet the two territories are placed in different segments. You may revert all you want, but until this is rectified, I will place big old 'bias' tags atop the article. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 00:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is "wishing" anything. The criteria is explicit, and this is how Palestine currently happens to fall within that criteria. "You may revert all you want, but until this is rectified, I will place big old 'bias' tags atop the article." It doesn't sound as though you understand how this project works, so I think I'm done here. Nightw 01:14, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Au contraire. Palestine, or any territory, doesn't and shouldn't happen to fall anywhere in a list without some degree of accuracy and certainty. The main problem here -- and it is one of neutrality -- is equating UN membership (of whatever stripe) with statehood. Consensus? I don't see it, nor do I see that this was fleshed out thoroughly for the current case. And, until another editor (or several actually) can compel me to change my perspective -- clearly not you -- then the tags shall remain. Do you really think that this should be the end of it? 64.231.179.54 (talk) 01:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is indeed established on this point. Palestine's position in this table, and the reasons for it, have been established for a long time, and have not been challenged by any of the large number of editors who have contributed to this page. With respect, whilst a 'lone voice' may of course challenge the status quo of any article on Wikipedia, the talk page is often the best place to start. I am in full agreement with those editors who have reverted your edit, and protected the article, and also with the established criteria for including states on this list. I also find myself in agreement with Nightw in feeling concerned about your use of tagging; the way you talk about tags seems somewhat flippant (apologies if I have misread you) - tags are for flagging up clear article/section issues, and not for expressing POV, or by-passing talk page debate. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 04:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Really - has it? Just until Nov./Dec., Palestine WAS in the latter list, and the UN vote is being used as a justification to classify it elsewhere -- this is a list of sovereign states and others, and a vote to become an observer state does not a sovereign state make. The list places undue primacy on -- and equates statehood with -- UN membership, when there are other criteria and other entities that have perhaps a more substantial claim on that (Taiwan and Kosovo, for example). Can that honestly be said of Palestine presently? Nobody has clearly pointed out precisely where the consensus is on the issue, yet keep iterating it. This archived discussion clearly DOES NOT indicate consensus on the matter, with similar issues being cited here (and I did not even read that beforehand). There are issues with this, and a seemingly groupthink attitude here perpetuates it, with other commentators dancing around the issue. So, the tags are justified and will remain until settled. And how have I bypassed talk page debate when I brought it here for discussion when reverted in the first place? 64.231.179.54 (talk) 13:30, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that you are not advancing an appropriate alternative criteria for inclusion. The list's criteria is not as arbitrary as you make it out to be. It is based on the two prominent theories of statehood in international law: constitutive and declarative. You are challenging these criteria, but you haven't articulated a coherent alternative. Could you perhaps clearly state your proposal in general terms without using the word "Palestine"? – Zntrip 20:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that is solely the problem. Having one section based on constitutive statehood while another is based on declarative statehood is like comparing apples to oranges. And, note that the Montevideo convention -- the hallmark of the latter theory -- is only accepted by some 20 states. So, my issue is not with the other entities with disputed sovereignty, as those seem correctly placed, but with the two observer entries ... one with disputed sovereignty but is sorted as if it wasn't disputed -- Palestine (that is what this section is about). Conversely, the Vatican (actually, the Holy See) is autonomous and has opted to remain an observer. Would we have oddly placed Switzerland a few years ago? A vote to become a UN observer state does not a sovereign state make, with undue emphasis on the juridical nature of UN status (de jure) while giving less importance to the actual (de facto) status. Perhaps it is a matter of sorting and segregating the UN member states from those that are not (including the observers), and/or merging them all together into one list. This is supposed to be a list of sovereign states, not of UN members. On this count, there is a particular appeal to how the former list organized the entities. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So what exactly is your proposal? – Zntrip 04:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The 3rd last sentence above sums a couple of options up. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 06:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The segregation in the list should be removed. The UN System column already deals with the UN membership of states. Their is no need to keep some states separated at the bottom. Grioghair (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The current section is a compromise from a very long dispute, in which nobody got everything they wanted. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is keen to avoid reopening it. Kahastok talk 18:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
When last I checked, this discussion has not concluded - doubly clear from the above and throughout, with little clear discourse about the topic of this section or the wider issue - and the tags will remain until it is. For those that aren't keen on retackling the subject, move on ... since something is clearly amiss. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 02:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, most of the above is your insistence on keeping these tags and others pointing out why they are not appropriate. I also see a pretty clear consensus against your claim that "something is clearly amiss", against reopening the discussion, and against retaining these tags indefinitely. Kahastok talk 09:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, most of the above is others skirting about the issue at hand -- 'Palestine (non-member states) is where it is in the list because that is where it happens to fall' (despite different positioning only a couple months ago) and similar crap. That is not a reason. At least one other commentator believes that something is amiss with how the list is sorted -- and I wonder who else given prior controversy. The tags are a partial response to that brick wall ... and are they inappropriate? No. So, give up discussion on the tags, since they will remain, and get back to the matter at hand or withdraw. If salient discussion about the topic does not come forth, and yours ain't it, I will soon edit the article and equilibrate its content, etc. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 14:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CIVIL please. It's not for you to say that the tags "will remain" if there is consensus against them remaining. It doesn't work like that. You don't just get to overrule the ample opposition to change expressed above, and dismissing those points you disagree with as "crap" won't make people more likely to want to reopen this. Threatening to make your edit anyway if people don't agree with you won't help either. Kahastok talk 17:28, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You've only really iterated 'crap' about tags. And editors need to discuss why something needn't stand, not just because they don't like it. The burden of proof is on those who maintain (flawed) content, not on me to challenge it. Discuss the issue, or be on your way. 64.231.179.54 (talk) 03:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
People, calm down. It is getting too personal. And it is turning more and more into a meta-discussion. On topic: I said that I did not like the separation in the list, but if it is needed to maintain a compromise then I am cool with that. I can only hope that others will begin see the silliness in giving this distinction in two separate ways and that it is also not a completely neutral view. Also the ′UN members PLUS observers′-label seems a bit artificial. But if we need to work with this separation, Palestine is clearly in the right sub list. Grioghair (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The first option you suggest was rejected in the first round of the final RfC -- it was the least-preferred method. The second option was rejected earlier on (during mediation) but then somewhat resurfaced as a plausible option during the final RfC with some editors supporting and some objecting. It's not a good method, in my opinion, and will likely attract even more objection. Have "Abkhazia" at the top of the list, have "Somaliland" right next to "Somalia", have "Nagorno-Karabakh" and "Transnistria", and I guarantee you'll get people like yourself coming along, protesting, slapping some tags on the top and demanding that they be moved back. They'll argue that nobody considers Somaliland/etc a sovereign state, and that it's almost never found in similar lists (and they'd have a point on that bit). Niue is almost never seen in similar lists, except in lists of "countries" where dependent territories are included [9]. The current sort criteria has been used for many, many years. It's only recently that an old entry moved categories. But we're not going to change the whole list's criteria every time an item happens to move against someone's POV. Nightw 09:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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