Talk:Franz Liszt

Comtesse or Countess

"the Comtess d'Agoult". Comtess skould be either Comtesse or Countess.
S.

It's Comtesse, I think - I'll change it. --Camembert

Hungarian Rhapsodies

The reference to "Hungarian Rhapsody" was added by an anonymous user, who apparently wasn't aware that Liszt wrote 19 of them. Which one do you reckon he/she was thinking of? #2, perhaps? --Ortonmc 03:08, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I guess so. Somebody's made Hungarian Rhapsody as well, so there's a bit of tidying up needed. I'll see what I can do tonight if nobody gets there before me. --Camembert

I've replaced the old page with the singular title with Hungarian Rhapsodies. Eventually we might want an individual page for each, but that's some way in the future, methinks. --Camembert

I am very confused by the numbering of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody! I have a Naxos CD, 8.550327, which contains a Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in C#m, arranged for orchestra. In the program notes it is read, "Hungarian Rhapsody, No. 2 (No. 12) the most popular of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, No. 2 in the orchestral arrangements the composer made with the aid of Franz Doppler, and No. 12 in the set of 19 for piano, was composed in 1853 and dedicated to the young virtuoso violinist Joseph Joachim, who that year had brought Brahms to visit him. ..."

But when I listen to a DVD Kissin (The Gift of Music), he plays Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 in C#m, it is totally a different piece! And I've tried to search for Hungarian Rhapsody in google, it is strange that many websites give a different numbering, some of them have the No. 2 in GbM, some of them C#m, some of them Dm! And the most problematic is Liszt has written two Hungarian Rhapsody in C#m, and some websites have listed No. 2 C#m and No. 12 C#m. It is really confusing. Could anyone help to give an answer? 203.186.238.243 20:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Franz (sometimes Ferenc) Liszt

Sometimes Ferenc? What is the original full Hungarian name? Rafał Pocztarski 11:54, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Liszt is known as Ferenc, the Hungarian version of his name, in Hungary. However, Liszt's family were German-speaking (rather snobbishly so, since Austria was the dominant partner in the empire) and Liszt himself spoke only very poor Hungarian and always used the German version of his name. -- Necrothesp 13:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So the situation is somewhat similar to that of Chopin in Poland, who is known as Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (sometimes even ‘Szopen’ though usually ‘Chopin’ and in any case always ‘Fryderyk’) but who himself changed the name to French “Frédéric-François.” I was wondering whether “Franz (sometimes Ferenc) Liszt” shouldn’t be something in the lines of “Franz (real name Ferenc) Liszt” but now I see that ‘Franz’ is not only a German version of his real name (like e.g. “Franciszek Liszt” is a popular Polish version) but it is the real name itself, so in fact there is no “original full Hungarian name”—sorry for the loaded question. So the Polish article Ferenc Liszt should be renamed to Franz Liszt, as should the CD I recorded this morning... I stand corrected, thanks a lot. Rafał Pocztarski 00:02, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On the other hand, the modern Hungarians do always refer to him as Ferenc (presumably for reasons of national pride, since he's their national composer and they don't want to use a foreign-sounding name). -- Necrothesp 03:13, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. The original name is Franz and that is what in my opinion should be used in the title, unless some other form of the name is much more popular in the language of the article in question—thus Ferenc in Hungarian. For anyone speaking Polish, this subject is just being discussed on pl Ferenc Liszt talk page right now. Rafał Pocztarski 20:46, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I agree entirely. The name he used is the name we should use. -- Necrothesp 00:11, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that is is abosolutly great that this many people have an opinion. I play Liszt for a living and this is what I have to say. I know that Brahms wrote Hungarian Dances but as far as Rhapsodies that are Hungarian I beleive only Liszt wrote those. I only teach Liszt and have only studied Liszt. I think it is very good. I also think tha twe should put samples of all the Hungairans on there I will work on that.--24.155.163.13 03:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Organization

I think the biographical information here would be more readable if organized similarly to how Haydn and Chopin are seperated into sub sections and headers. Thoughts? --Sketchee 17:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I went boldly ahead! I think it works but feel free to rename the sections, etc. --Sketchee 13:59, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Nationism

"Of the other Hungarian 19th century and early 20th century composers, Bartok's place of birth is today in Romania and Dohnanyi's in Slovakia; that of Kodály still remains in the 40% of Hungary which stands as the remnants of the country."

This was removed as it probably shouldn't be here. I thought I'd just save it in case anyone wants something to develop a page on Nationalism in music or even a section on the nationalism page. --Sketchee 01:16, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

Is Christoph von Dohnányi a composer anyway? The original author may have been referring to his grandfather, if and when that section is written Schissel : bowl listen 03:15, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Liszt is commonly referred to as a Hungarian composer, which is an image he helped to promulgate, but I believe that he actually does not have any Hungarian ancestry. He was Austrian. --11/21/05

He was not Austrian, but an ethnic German Hungarian. As he said: "Je suis Hongrois".

Liszt and Beethoven

The section about Liszt's meeting with Beethoven takes up way too much place IMO. It is interesting though, so I suggest we move it to a separate article (e.g. Liszt and Beethoven) and reduce it to a single sentence or so within the main article, with a link to the new article. — Pladask 12:57, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Like Sketchee, I went boldly ahead. :-) I think this is much better. — Pladask 18:20, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Question about audio sample, and reading..

Audio sample- in the media sample, what's Au bord d'une? (Resolves to download that audio sample soon, but if it turns out to be Au bord d'une source, it really should be labeled as such)

Reading- a further reading section with e.g. biography references may be good (I'd nominate Walker's, unsurprisingly, for instance.) Schissel : bowl listen 03:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

I did a futher reading section, with of course the Walker books and some others which Liszt enthusiasts may be interested in. Looks like the 'au bord d'une' has been changed, my PC doesnt want to play it, but Im sure its right. I've looked at works lists and its the only one like it. —M A Mason

I checked it, the audio's definitely right Tedneeman 23:59, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Website with Searle / Raabe catalogue numbers?

The current link at the end of Noted Works is 404. I know a couple good sites that list Searle numbers (liszt.dk, lisztworks.com), but neither lists Raabe numbers.

One commercial site (www.hungaroton.hu - e.g. Recording of Les Quatre Élémens) lists Raabe nos. in cataloging their Liszt recordings, but other sites seem to be scarce on the ground, yes. Schissel : bowl listen 05:38, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Or it might have been a typo- this link has some of the information? Schissel : bowl listen 05:49, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Unnecessary stuff

Many articles about musicans or composers etc on wikipedia start with "is considered to be the greatest/best..." or something like that, like in this article "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time". Adding things like that is just unnecessary and stupid, weather he/she/it is good or not is highly subjective. It's just as stupid as "This is Franz Lizst(for example), some people like him, some don'ta". As if peoples oppinions would change if they found out he is appreciated by some. Thats one the problem with society, people care to much what other people thing.

Well to get on topic again: Less of that stuff.

While I agree that "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time" is a little too POV-ish, he was, and is still widely considered to have been just that, with the numerous legends and stories attached to his life. And you must surely agree that it would be downright silly to rule out such an essential fact in his biography. :-) – Pladask 12:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Third concerto

There is third concerto in Eb major too.

Yes, a performance was broadcast on SBS TV (Australia) some years ago. I seem to remember this was claimed to be by Liszt but conclusive proof is lacking. JackofOz 23:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Anti-semitic claims

Franz Liszt is a musical hero to me. However, there should be some mention of his anti-semitic views, even if its justs a blurb.

Was he really anti-semitic? I know that Alan Walker argues that he was wrongly accused of it. I have however heard that he made some comments that could be construed in that way, same for Chopin. I'm not saying it's not true, just that if it is mentioned it needs to be balanced and properly sourced. I'm in two minds as to whether or not it's noteworthy, true or not I don't think he was ever hostile to anyone because of any views that he had, or indeed was public about it, as Wagner was. Wagner's music is apparently banned in Israel due to his anti-semitism, and as far as I'm aware there are no such restrictions on Liszt's music, which shows to me that perhaps if he were an anti-semite, he wasn't active, if you catch my drift. I'd be interested to hear others opinions on this. M A Mason 02:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I guess I really don't know. I sure would like to find out. Thank you for posting, as this is the first time I've heard about Alan Walker. I would really like to find any analysis of evidence, letters, correspondance, etc. that could shed some light either way.

After a bit of digging, it appears that Alan is the most comprehensive source on Liszt to date. Also, I would add:

Franz Liszt: A Guide to Research by Michael Saffle

Contained within Saffle's book is a reference to the following book:

Liszt: A Self-portrait in His Own Words, ed. David Whitwell. Northridge, CA: Winds, 1986. vii, 242 pp. ML410.L7A164 1986.

"A summary of Liszt's life, character, and activities drawn from the composer's letters, essays, and other documents. Includes observations made by Liszt on the Jews, the peoples of various nations, and a variety of individuals--among them, Bach, Ludwig II of Bavaris, Tolstoy, and Wagner."(Saffle)

Perhaps 'ol Liszt got a bad rap? I think you may be correct. Gstejska 08:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's one more source:

Riehn, Rainer. "Wilder die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener. Liszt soll Antisemit gewesen sein...." pp. 100-14

Gstejska 22:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Walker discusses this especially in the book (which I seem to refer to a lot.. hrm) Franz Liszt: The Weimar Years, 1848-1861. The two books which have been used most often, according to Walker, to make the case that Liszt was antisemitic were the last edition of his book on Chopin, and even more, the second edition of his book on the Gypsies and Their Music (I don't have the exact title here, nor Walker's book.) Caroline von Sayn-Wittgenstein, who he loved and almost married was an anti-Semite, and he gave much of the work of revising those books to her in his later years, and I gather he only discovered what she added to the second book especially- which contained some horrible slurs - when it was late to do anything about it, and then did not reveal her part in it out of misplaced chivalry. That said: this is what I remember of his account, will add page number sources and corrections when I have the book in front of me, and I'm not really positive. Schissel-nonLop! 18:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

no mention of his invention of tone poem

Franz Liszt is famous for his invention of the tone poem, or symphonic poem. The Wiki 'symphonic poem' article mentions this fact, and links to Liszt, but there is no mention in the actual Liszt article about his invention. It might be prudent to include this, as well as a link in a paragraphed section other than a listing of his works, which could be quickly skimmed over & missed.

What makes Liszt hungarian?

What was it? His mother was german. His father was magyarised german. He DIDN`T EVEN SPOKE HUNGARIAN!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone show me just one prove that Frantz Liszt spoke hungarian? A letter, a journal, anything! NO YOU CAN`T!!! Because he didn`t spoke hungarian. Even if he didn`t, is there any prove that he ever called, or considered himself "magyar"? Greier 18:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

ACtually Franz Liszt did consider himself Hungarian, and true he didn't know the language very well..he was half Austrian. Adam Liszt was Hungarian, born in Hungary, worked with a Hungarian family, has a Hungarian surname and Hungarian diacratics on name. Where is the evidence that he was 100% German? Leave the sentence as it was before 65.185.213.33 changed it without reason

Liszt was clearly Hungarian. He was of course born there himself, lived their for 10 years, the Hungarians hailed him as a national hero on his returns there, let's not forget the decorations and nationalistic awards he recieved (I'm thinking of the that sword of honour, or whatever it's called). He wrote a lot of music inspired by Hungary; the Rhapsodies, the Hungarian romanzeros, the Hungarian character portraits and so on... Admitedly so did Brahms for example... but what it does show is that in his heart Liszt was Hungarian. He certainly tried to speak Hungarian, there's a letter he sent to his mother which begins in Hungarian, but goes into French, his preferred language - but was he French? No. Of course he wasn't. Language certainly doesn't determine nationality.

And finally, I won't keep you much longer, Liszt writing to Caroline about his identification with the magyars: "Nothing elsewhere can replace these things, and the physiognomy of the race, when they are linked to childhood memories and when one has kept in tact that tonality of the heart which is a feeling for one's fatherland" (Franz Liszt the Weimar years - Alan Walker, p. 404). Good enough for me.M A Mason 12:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Lager or Lagen

Which is his mother's maiden name - Lager or Lagen? According to this article it's Lagen, but according to the article of Anna Liszt, it's Lager. --1523 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Lager, according to Alan Walker; I'll change the article, thanks :) M A Mason 16:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Road to Pilgrimage section

Can anyone explain to me why this section is so titled? If not I'll change it to something else. Arniep 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Seemed a good time to change it so I did, to 'Years of Pilgrimage', seemed a lot more appropriate than 'road to pilgrimage' anyway, and it is of course the title of the set of pieces composed at this time. Do change it if you disaprove, thanks M A Mason 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Liszt, the priest

Does anybody know if Liszt became a priest or something similar. There was a story that he was a ladies' man, and he promised each he will marry them, it never happened. In order to avoid the promise, he studied 4 years to be a priest and he was ordained in 1860's, even though he had kids, he was a widow.

Liszt never became a priest, common misconception. He did, though, take the 4 Minor Orders of the Catholic Church; which, as the article shows, requires neither that the person taking the orders be celibate, nor remain unmarried. It is true that he was a Ladies' man in his day, though to say he promised them all marriage is an exageration. He desperately wanted to marry Princess Caroline however and they even appealed to the Pope for permission but were unsuccessful. His taking of these orders was certainly not to avoid marriage, as he was completely devoted to Caroline, but for purely religious reasons. M A Mason 21:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure

- Old newspapers say he married to avoid marriage and I do not mean to Caroline, but to other ladies, it's possible this happened before he met Caroline. So what kind of 4 orders? Was this similar to a brother? I know he was religious but...

This I think is an example of what I talk about in Liszt's AID (everyone get on there and vote for him!), if you ask me it's just a rumour put about by his critics to damage his reputation. He had relationships with a number of women, Someone St Criq (sp?) was one, then there was Marie and Caroline, and he had an affair with a woman called Agnes Street-Someone. He may have proposed marriage to any or all of them. There is this article about Minor Orders that explains the ins and outs of them. I think it was similar to a brother, I know he lived in a monastery and had the title Abbé, but he was under no obligations to do with marriage. Like I say, little more than a rumour. Where and when did you read about this in an old newspaper, or where did you find out about it? I'd be very interested to know, thanks M A Mason 21:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get your info from

Ok, I know somebody who can give you that file, leave your email here for few days, I will get that person to email you. But if he had women, still, should not even be Abbe. What's AID?