Talk:Juggalo gangs
Sources
It seems to me that this article relies far too much on primary sources (police/FBI website material etc), contrary to Wikipedia guidelines. This needs correcting, and material needs sourcing properly from WP:RS secondary sources - not least to establish the the article meets Wikipedia notability guidelines, which cannot be established via primary sources. Note also that most YouTube videos shouldn't even be linked (see WP:YOUTUBE), never mind used as a source - I've had to remove on already as an almost certain copyright violation. If evidence cannot be established from mainstream reliable sources, it may be necessary to nominate the article for deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- Here are some Police, schools watching ‘Juggalos’ - Classified as gang in Arizona
- Member of Juggalo Rydas sentenced to 15 years for shooting up vacant apartment
- Escondido police crack down on Juggalos
- American Juggalos: Graffiti artists tag themselves as family, not gang-bangers (responding to some other article I'm not going to pull) Shii (tock) 06:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
The NGIC material reports on and analyzes the firsthand experiences of police officers, making it a secondary source for the most part. It does analyze and report on other secondary sources, so it has elements of a tertiary source as well, but it's certainly not "encyclopedic".
I apologize for the YouTube thing, as I wasn't aware that was considered copyright infringement. My bad. I'm still getting used to Wikipedia.
AnnerTown (talk) 06:25, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Documents sourced to publicintelligence.net
This Article cites two documents cited to publicintelligence.net: [1][2]. Per discussions at WP:RSN (see [3] and [4]), and per WP:RS policy, publicintelligence.net clearly cannot be cited as a source. Furthermore, the National Gang Intelligence Center document on Juggalos is clearly an internal document - no evidence has been provided that it has ever been published, or is in any way available to members of the public short of a FOIA request - and as such cannot be cited as a source, if for no other reason than that we have no means to verify its authenticity (note also that WP:RS states explicitly that sources must be published). Though the second document has not yet been discussed at WP:RSN, I can see no reason to assume that the same arguments should not apply (The document states that it is "Confidential - Sensitive Data Law Enforcement Use Only"). On this basis, since neither document can be cited as WP:RS (being unpublished, and therefore unverifiable), I shall shortly be removing the citations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, I would argue that the Public Intelligence sources should stay. The document comes from the National Gang Intelligence Center, which is a reliable source, and according to the link that you provided me, Public Intelligence is generally not allowed as a source due to the fact that it aggregates files from many sources, some of which may not be reliable, and to quote, "If there is anything of value it can be traced back to its original publisher, author etc." The National Gang Intelligence Center (from which this document originates) is a reliable source on U.S. street gangs already cited in several articles. The NGIC did not release the report via their web site and it is not available at any other web site at this time, meaning that this may be an important exception to the rule, as it cannot be traced back to the agency (which was recently disbanded). This document can be confirmed as legitimate, as the FBI cited and quoted it in their 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment. Removing the link would negatively impact the article, and changes nothing at the end of the day, so I feel like this is one of those times when a PI document would be helpful to keep.
As far as being published goes, PI published it, and they can, as non-classified government documents are not protected by copyright, if I remember correctly. Regardless, I think that any document you can order directly to your house by filling out a form would fall under the definition of "published". It's not any different than ordering a book that wasn't marketed to bookstores. If it wasn't "published", you wouldn't be able to get it via FOIA. The government has a word for "internal unpublished documents", and that word is "classified". "Sensitive" is not at all the same thing as "classified". You can get "sensitive" information via the FOIA if you know the name of the document. If it were legitimately "classified", then you wouldn't be able to get it via FOIA, and then it would fall under the policy that you specified. To remove the document would have a chilling effect - any government information that isn't explicitly posted on their official web site would need to be removed, and I really don't think that this was the intention of the policy in question, so I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.
The point is moot, though. The NGIC was recently disbanded by the Obama administration, and it couldn't be an "internal" document of an agency that does not exist.
AnnerTown (talk) 06:25, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I made several changes to the article
1. This phenomenon has been documented by the FBI, the NGIC, Wired magazine, and news stations around the country. Requirements for eligibility have been met, so I've removed the box at the top of the page. 2. The article's sources question contain both tertiary and seconday sources, so I've removed that box as well. Secondary sources can be found throughout the article in the form of news reports and reports on law enforcement's firsthand experiences with Juggalo gangs. The government reports analyze and report both on second-hand open source reporting (which qualifies them as tertiary sources) as well as first-hand reports (making them secondary sources as well). They're certainly not "encyclopedic" and focus on analyzing the first-hand experiences of law enforcement officials more than news reports. 3. Added information about the documents recently released by the FBI in response to ICP's lawsuit. 4. Fixed some sources and tried to make some of the article more clear.