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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Skortzy (talk | contribs) at 19:58, 13 March 2013 (→Article name). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

/* MORE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS NEEDED INCLUDE ENTIRE CHURCH */ new section

comment

He is not the first Non-European pope!

There is a quite lengthy article on no: about Bergoglio that can be translated, instead of mendeling with the copyright article. no:Jorge Beroglio Profoss 22:42, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have never posted on Wikipedia before and have no real plans to post later.. but i think the sentence "He is another homophobic bastard indeed." should probably be removed. It is in the "Early" section FYI.

Edit request on 13 March 2013

Can someone put something in there about how he is another homophobic bastard?

While I'm personally inclined to agree, as per WP:NPOV that sort of judgement won't really get accepted into the article.

Congratulations! Now our work begins

I expect lots of edit warring here, so this is a request to editors to take issues to the talk page before making controversial edits to the article. Andrew327 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regnal Name

Just to nip the inevitable edit war in the bud, why is it "Francis" and not "Francisco"? Localized name thing? Matteric (talk) 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • NPR is calling him "Franciscus" so does that localize to "Francis" ala St Francis of Assisi (USA) or "Francisco" ala San Francisco (Espanol)?
  • John Paul II was Juan Pablo II in Spanish speaking countries, Giovanni Paolo II in Italian ones, and so on. ~~----

Francis the First

Where's the ordinal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.233.136.61 (talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013 First Non-European Pope in History on March 3, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.58.239 (talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013

HE IS NOT THE FIRST NON EUROPEAN POPE. SAINT PETER (FIRST POPE) WAS NOT EUROPEAN EITHER. Fredyrod (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
None needed. There is no second.Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 19:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was notable that John Paul I chose to be use the ordinal and was the first to Pope to be "XXX the First". Clearly Francis I is following in this tradition. Move. jameslucas (" " / +) 19:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's notable that he is the only Pope Francis, and he will probably be the only Pope Francis for years into the future, and the article can be moved if a future pope becomes the second. His official Vatican title is "Pope Francis". Andrew327 19:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There is only 1. It can be updated if/when a Francis II is named. Dmarquard (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, eventually. If the Pope, in his official capacity, refers to himself as Francis the First, Francis I, or whatever, we can do no less. As noted, above, John Paul I chose to do so, and we likely would have followed suit. But it is really really too early to speculate. I'm betting the Vatican will offer a news release or some sort of official announcement (their website is behind) that will clarify things. Give the poor man a few hours to get situated, yes? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if this counts as official but the official Twitter account just tweeted "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/311922995633455104 EddyProca
  • Oppose Official announcement did not mention an ordinal, so until he claims the ordinal like John Paul the 1st did, he is just Pope Francis. Anyone using an ordinal is doing it out of ignorance. wxwalsh 19:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Currently the Vatican web page announces him as 'New Pontiff Is Pope Francis of Argentina' No ordinal at this time. That seems, for now, to be as reliable a source as you will find. http://www.vatican.com/ Sarafinadh (talk) 19:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Nominals

Does he keep the "SJ" post-nominals after his name, as a Jesuit? Pylon (talk) 19:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pius?

Here it says Pius XIII.

It's Francis I – A New Pope

Note: This template is "broken" because the page was moved already, but discussion is still going on. —Soap— 19:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pope Francis → Pope Francis I – Sources are giving his name as Francis I. I would have done a simple move but that page redirects here so I can't. Smartyllama (talk) 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The template on top seems contradictory because the page was moved during this discussion —Soap— 19:51, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there proof that the 'Francis' refers to Francis of Assisi, not Francis de Sales? Both are saints - de Sales was a bishop and is a Doctor of the Church. I was unable to hear the official announcement of the regal name, but it would be good to confirm this association, rather than assume it.

  • Or Francis Xavier for that matter. He was the founder of the Society of Jesus.

91.83.198.239 (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)Madnight[reply]

  • Opposedfor below reason. No ordinal until there's a second Pope Francis.
  • Opposed Until/unless there's a source stating that he's called himself "Francis I" as opposed to just Francis. EWTN and MSNBC alone are saying simply "Francis" right now. Also, apparently John Paul I actually specified that he was "the First". umrguy42 19:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed Reiterating - no ordinal until there's a second Pope Francis. erielhonan 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes a move would be right. John Paul I had an ordinal in his lifetime.

I doubt this. Please cite source. erielhonan 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Title should include the ordinal I, as Pope John Paul I, but somebody already redirected that here. Grsz 11 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The ordinal is only used for the first when there's a second. John Paul I was only John Paul until John Paul II was elected. 86.9.122.202 (talk) 19:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, like John Paul, who specifically chose to add the ordinal. If this one does the same, the rule "no ordinal until there's a second" does not apply. 94.224.96.189 (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Iv'e noticed that the page has already been moved, should it be moved back for the time being since there clearly it not a consensus yet for this move.--64.229.164.74 (talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever is decided, the history from Pope Francis may need to be merged into this article, as both have been edited in parallel after a copy and paste move. For now, I have protected that page from editing to prevent the problem getting worse. WJBscribe (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]


  • Wait We don't know yet whether he's going to reign as "Francis" or "Francis I"; it's very likely he'll clarify that soon (as John Paul I did, and, for that matter, as John XXIII did in a similar situation--it wasn't clear whether he was XXIII or XXIV until he said so). In the meantime, we should combine Pope Francis and Pope Francis I, it's ridiculous to have two pages--but either name is fine for a temporary place, until we know what his official name is. -- Narsil (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Their very first article says "Who is Pope Francis?" And the next one mentions a Fracis [sic] I. So I'd say let the Vatican sort it first. :) --JohnDBuell (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just before I undertook to write the paragraph you are reading, the article said in one place the name "Francis" was in honor of Francis Xavier, and another place in the article said it was in honor of Francis of Assisi.


  • Procedural Question Since the move has apparently already been carried out, should we close this discussion as procedure and open a new one about moving it back to Pope Francis? Smartyllama (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 13 March 2013

He was transferred in 1980 to become the rector of the seminary in San Miguel where he had studied. Tonylatt (talk) 19:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source? Andrew327 19:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Date of election

Please change the elction date to the 13th of March, not the 14th. It is not yet the 14th in Italy. Today is the 13th... Even in Europe. :) --91.56.37.184 (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Was just about to come and say the same thing. Change the date, please. --91.152.235.120 (talk) 19:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
DoneAbductive (reasoning) 19:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
isn't he pope francis? Not pope francis I.
Francis I as Popes are always given an ordinal number. Kilonum (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, he's Francis I according to most sources. He's using the oridinal like John Paul I did. Gateman1997 (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Date fixed to the 13th Pieism (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First new name since 10th century

An examination of the List of popes shows that, discounting the special case of John Paul I where he combined the names of his immediate predecessors, Francis is the first brand-new Pope name since Pope Lando took the chair in 913 AD. Might be worth noting somewhere. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally notable in that he was the first Pope to do so since all Popes began using names not their own in the 16th century. Lando was merely the latin version of his given name, Landus.

  • Ignore fiction about Lando being Latin.

Place of Birth

It reads he is the first Pope born in the Americas but then says he was born in India. Can we clarify / correct that?

He was not born in India - FIX THAT

Are we sure about which Saint?

Francis Solanus (The patron saint of Argentina) makes more sense than Francis of Assisi

He may be playing the "sounds like" game though

"For twenty years Francis worked at evangelizing the vast regions of Tucuman (present day northwestern Argentina) and Paraguay. He had a skill for languages and succeeded at learning many of the regions' native tongues in a fairly short period. It is claimed that he could also address tribes of different tongues in one language yet be understood by them all. Being a musician as well, Francis also played the violin frequently for the natives, which helped them relate better to him. He is often depicted playing this instrument."

Spandox (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He will announce this --Guerillero | My Talk 19:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Until he announces it, why guess that it was St. Francis of Assisi? Aren't BLPs supposed to have facts? Tied to citations? not guesses? Even good ones? -69.225.10.37 (talk) 19:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Francis I?

Shouldn't it just be Francis as there is no Francis II?

Yes, it should, as the official Twitter states "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" with no use of an ordinal. [9]. --Zimbabweed (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Only pope to take an ordinal as part of the first use of their name was John Paul I, to distinguish his as a compound of preceding popes John and Paul. Unless the Vatican (or this Pope) states plainly that the ordinal is to be included, get rid of it. LCS check (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of the above. Fitnr (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Francis of Assisi

Is this actually confirmed? I've heard various reports that it was after Francis Xavier, which would make more sense consider he was the co-founder of the Order of Jesuits. Do we have any confirmation about which man he chose the name for? Morhange (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I don't think this is factual, just speculation, because many people think "of Assisi" when they hear Francis... User:geerlingguy (talk)

Yes, I think, its Francis of Assisi and not Francis Xavier... I just followed the discussions of the specialists and highest member of Catholic Church with live broadcasting on German TV.... and they all referred to the Franciscan Order User:ElJay_Arem

Edit request on 13 March 2013

Liberation theology Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement. [edit]Abortion and euthanasia Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3] [edit]Homosexuality He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are gay. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gays and lesbians is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4] [edit]Church and AIDS Main article: Roman Catholic Church and AIDS His doctrinal orthodoxy emphasizes Christ's mandate to love: he is well remembered for his 2001 visit to a hospice, in which he washed and kissed the feet of twelve AIDS patients. [edit]Social justice He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but somewho? observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies. [edit]Relations with the Argentine government See also: Dirty War On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5] [edit] Mmhmbop (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Little early for this, isn't it? In any event, your proposed edits are non neutral and unsourced, and are unlikely to be included. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request includes information that is potentially monumental. I strongly encourage you, Mmhmbop, or other editors interested in adding content on the Dirty War to please seek out good references if these claims are indeed verifiable! That would mean the world to me and my family. Eekiv 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

not elected on 14th

its still 13th of march, even in iraq time zone 85.26.186.107 (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assisi or Xavier? Or some other?

Article says he took the name of St. Francis of Assisi. I believe that but need a citation (that I can read). Otherwise, might not St. Francis Xavier, cofounder of Jesuits, seem a reasonable assumption also? --Kbh3rdtalk 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

None of the citations link to anything that says he selected St. Francis after Francis of Assisi. Can this be cited to something that states exactly which St. Francis? Why not the Jesuit St. Francis, after all? Seems like a good guess, Francis of Assisi, but, really are BLPs made of guesses?

If this is confined to registered users, please, to the registered users, stick with facts that you can cite. -69.225.10.37 (talk) 19:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CBS is currently saying that it's Assisi. CNN's blog originally stated that it was Assisi, before the comment was removed. Xavier has also been brought up, according to some other editors. It looks like no one knows for sure at the moment.--xanchester (t) 19:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NOT the first non-European

The List of Popes proves that. Anyone who re-submits that false claim should have it autoreverted. Just an FYI. --JohnDBuell (talk) 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. The last pope outside of Europe was Gregory III from Syria. --Zimbabweed (talk) 19:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

spelling

The following edit should be made: "conformation" should be "confirmation" and "Papem" should be "Papam" in the cite for the reason for "Francis". Collect (talk) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

references

The references section is doubled! Teemeah 편지 (letter) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial Statements

In the minutes before editing began in earnest on this page, I noticed a great deal more topics under the heading of his views, many of which likely would have been seen as controversial. The majority of those have now disappeared. Please consider checking out older versions of this page, and re-adding those statements or views.

I've noticed the same, it's been shrinking by the minute. This absolutely should be reverted!212.64.14.89 (talk) 19:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I concur; the article is already having positive stuff removed and negative stuff added. I am not Catholic but I am already noticing some less-than-flattering edits being made. A few minutes ago, the article contained a story about him ministering to 12 AIDS patients and even kissing their feet. Now, that's gone...and the section on homosexuality has been edited to include a quote from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner claiming that Francis I's views on homosexuality are reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition". Does someone (who's more knowledgeable than I) want to tackle those? I think the story about his ministry to AIDS patients is a lot more relevant to his biography than hyperbolic criticism from an Argentinian politician, but maybe that's just me. NathanDahlin (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The section about the Dirty War allegations needs to be looked at. It's sourced to an LA Times article that makes it clear that no specifics were provided as part of the complaint, and that Argentine law has a very low burden of evidence for that stage of the process. I just heard this fact cited on NPR so we should think quickly about whether WP:DUE is being followed here. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 19:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

The name of the new pope should be "Francis", not "Francis I". Popes who take names that have not been taken by previous popes do not bear a number. John Paul I was a an exception to this rule. Please refer to list of pope's names provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes. Notice that pope Landus, elected in 913, was the last pope--except John Paul I and Francis-- to take a name not previously taken by a pope, and he does not have a number. Also, refer to the announcement of the the cardinal Protodeacon, who gave the name of the new pope without the number.

Thanks. 71.6.42.66 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. please move the page to 'Pope Francis'. He becomes 'Pope Francis I' only when there is a 'Pope Francis II'. The Discoverer (talk) 19:51, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]


I agree won't be Francis I until there is a Francis II.--KTo288 (talk) 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also think Francis I is incorrect. The only pope having the I in his regnal name was John Paul I, but the number was included in the name as it was announced as Ioannes Paulus Primi. Skortzy (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not correct. Not only is there precedent that Pope John Paul I used a regnal number, but the pope himself has tweeted that he will use the regnal number [10]. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 19:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with no number, as per my comment in the above section on the name. LCS check (talk) 19:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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