Talk:John Brown (abolitionist)

Weasel Word

"Brown's actions are often referred to as "patriotic treason", depicting both sides of the argument."

That's a total weasel word and I can't edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.76.173 (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Link for "Ken Chowder, "The Father of American Terrorism." American Heritage (2000) 51(1): pp 81+" is broken

The link for "Ken Chowder, "The Father of American Terrorism." American Heritage (2000) 51(1): pp 81+" is broken. It should go to:

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2000/1/2000_1_81.shtml

Palomar-librarian (talk) 00:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)palomar-librarian

 Done Sorafune +1 02:28, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Posthumous view and the JBRL

The last bullet point, re the John Brown Revolutionary League, might need some NPOV editing, and definitely needs some sources, which is why I hung on it. --LCE(LCE talk contribs) 23:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Historical Novel addition

Dixon, Thomas, The Man in Gray (Southern viewpoint) http://books.google.com/books?id=9ZHaaQ6Kv2cC&dq=dixon%20man%20in%20gray%20xx&pg=PP7#v=onepage&q&f=false

70.156.103.249 (talk) 21:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Lo-o-ong introduction

I have no concrete suggestions, but the introduction is way too long. A lot of it can probably be incorporated into the body. Just sayin'. Matt Thorn (talk) 06:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

good point--I trimmed it down, moving stuff to the main text and deleting unsourced speculation. Rjensen (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Comparison to Abortion Clinic Shooters

Brown's tactics and motives closely parallel that of modern day shooters who oppose abortion, who, in a similar manner to those who opposed slavery as John Brown did, took up arms against what they saw as an unjust institution. There are comparisons between Brown and such other criminal individuals, and these comparisons are not unheard of on the internet. This article should, in the interest of relevance, consider such parallels. -- 24.215.246.114 (talk) 05:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Only if there are reliable sources available that discuss such "parallels" specifically with Brown's tactics. If none can be found, it would be OR to add such content to the article.--JayJasper (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Page Lockdown

I think it would be wise to have John Brown's page under a specific lockdown given the colorful background and varying perspective of the abolitionist.--Drgyen (talk) 10:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC) Do you all think John brown was a bad guy or good guy? why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coffeyky (talk • contribs) 20:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

May Not Be Clear Enough He Was White

It may not be clear enough from the article that John Brown was a white man, and I do think his skin color is relevant given the context. When I saw the current black and white image on the right, I thought one of his parents was an African American. I then typed "Was John Brown black?" in Google and got this answer: "Best guess for John Brown Ethnicity is African American; Mentioned on at least 3 websites including wikipedia.org, amazon.com and smithsonianmag.com" However, when I saw the images in the Early years section, I concluded that both his parents (Owen Brown and Ruth Mills) were white after all. Maybe we could change the first section: instead of "was an American revolutionary abolitionist", we could write "was a white American revolutionary abolitionist". I didn't yet make this change in the article, because I would like to know what others think. So, what do you think? --82.171.13.139 (talk) 12:02, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's obvious he's white. When I look at the picture I see a white man: white skin, light-colored eyes, straight hair... looks like a white man to me. 132.3.17.78 (talk) 08:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Father of American Terrorism should probably be removed.

Years before Brown ever arrived in Kansas, David Rice Atchison

[R]ecruited an immense mob of heavily armed Missourians, the infamous "Border Ruffians". On the election day, March 30, 1855, Atchison led 5,000 Border Ruffians into Kansas. They seized control of all polling places at gunpoint, cast tens of thousands of fraudulent votes for pro-slavery candidates, and elected a pro-slavery legislature.

How is that not also terrorism? JoshNarins (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that it was Atchison who was involved in fraudulent pro-slavery ballots cast in Kansas by Missourians -- not John Brown. Am I mistaken? John Brown was anti-slavery, not pro-slavery. The perspective that the South started the Civil War because of "States Rights" instead of Slavery seems to be a 'paper tiger'. The motivations, not the pretext, is uncovered by the 'Bloody Kansas" events a decade before the war. Pro-slavery Missourians came into Kansas territory to cast pro-slavery ballots. If the motivation was indeed "states rights" instead of keeping slavery legal, why would Missouri agitator attempt to overthow the rights of Kansas anti-slavery residents? Another strong voice against the abolitionists came from the railroad industry. They wanted peace at any cost so that they could continue with their plans to build stretches of railroad across the Kansas territory. They painted the abolitionists as idealists, unpragmatic, unconcerned about promoting business (railroad and expansionist interests) and jobs of the working class [whites]. As history has shown us, many of the seeds of war are spread by monied interests. As with most wars, the deepest roots are greed; the greed of those in power stirring up fear of the citizenry dependent on them. Have we learned anything from history? Just replace the words "railroad" with "oil" and "free slave labor" with unaccountable "cheap China labor". If we want to understand John Brown, we can not take him out of the context of his experiences while in Kansas, seeing the unjustice and desparation. Nor can we ignore the way the Federal Government responded to the events -- lobbied by the railroad and other business interests. Were their responses to the ballot-stuffing, violence against anti-slavery Kansas citizens too light-handed -- at least when compared with their response agains John Brown and other abolitionists? Tesseract501 (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Pottawatomie debate removed from HTML comment in article

I removed this from an HTML comment inside the article.

When a wife speaks of "her husband's "devilment", every sane person thinks there may be a knife around her neck. Should an encyclopedia contain statements made under dubious circumstances? No you are nit-picking here. Most sane people would assume that if one's wife believed her husband was innocent, she would have been insistent upon it with a "knife around her neck." The point is that she made an inadvertent acknowledgment that her husband and sons had been up to no good and that she had opposed it, and now it had backfired.

It seems to me to be wholly unsuitable to have this kind of comment/debate inside the article; quite apart from anything else, it should be here on the Talk page. Why would you start a debate inside the article like that, when it has a Talk page for the purpose? With the best will in the world, I don't get it.

On the topic itself I have no comment except to point out that the whole Pottawatomie section has been marked unreferenced since August 2011, and still seems to have problems, such as the interpretation of what Mahala Doyle's comment meant ("further signifying" according to whom?) and "it is suspected" - again, by whom? I know that this is a major and controversial topic in US history but surely we can, without adopting a POV, try to cover it more thoroughly and in a better-referenced fashion? Not me, sadly, with my ignorance of the topic ... I just came to read up on it! With best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 07:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Winner wears the crown, Loser wears the frown - Founding Fathers vs. John Brown

The Founding Fathers met in secret to plot rebellion. They raised funds to started an armed uprising agsinst the British to free the oppressed colonialists. John Brown and his gang met in secret to plot a rebellion. They raised funds to start an armed uprising against slave owners to free the slaves. The motives are the same, the methods are the same, only the results differed.

The Founding Fathers were fighting the British, an army that had to be shipped to America from England. John Brown were fighting the US Army, a division already stationed nearby led by Robert E. Lee. The same Robert E. Lee who later led the Confederate Army fight against the US Army.

The Founding Fathers not only had a voluntary civilian army but they also had foreign mercenaries ready to fight the Red Coats. John Browns's army of "colored people" whom he tried to free never showed up to help him. If his army of "colored people" had shown up as promised, he may have won.

The Founding Fathers never gave up their conviction that they were right. John Brown never waivered in his conviction that he was right.

John Brown was proven right in the end because it did take a war to free the slaves. And the slaves did not desert the South nor joined the Union Army until Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclaimation.

Since the Founding Fathers and Lincoln won, they are the heroes and front pages in history. Since John Brown lost, he's the traitor and a footnote in history.VimalaNowlis (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)