Talk:Enrica Lexie case

Court documents

ORIGINAL court documents relating to the MV Enrica Lexie incident

Kerala High Court

• 29TH DAY OF MARCH 2012, JUSTICE P.S.GOPINATH KERALA HIGH COURT JUDGMENT WP(C) No.6083 OF 2012(I) [1]
  

• 3rd day of April 2012, Manjula Chellur, Ag. C.J. & V. Chitambaresh, JJ. KERALA HIGH COURT JUDGMENT W.A. No. 678 & 679 of 2012 Dated - Doramma Vs. M.T. Enrica Lexie, (2) KLJ 398 : 2012 (2) KHC 265 [2]
  

• 2nd day of May 2012, Justice R.M. LODHA M.T. Civil Appeal No. 4167 of 2012 arising out of S.L.P. (Civil) No. 11942 of 2012 Enrica Lexie & ANR. Vs. Doramma & Ors. [3][4]
  

• 29TH DAY OF MAY 2012 JUSTICE. P.S.GOPINATHAN, KERALA HIGH COURT JUDGMENT WP(C).No. 4542 of 2012 (P) - Massimilano Latorre Vs. Union of India (2012) 252 KLR 794 [5]

Indian Supreme Court

• February 22, 2013 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF INDIA, CIVIL APPELLATE JURISDICTION IA 4 OF 2013 IN SPECIAL LEAVE PETITION (C)NO. 20370 OF 2012 MASSIMILANO LATORRE AND ORS. Petitioner(s) VERSUS UNION OF INDIA AND ORS. Respondent(s) [6] (Order of Supreme Court of India which had allowed the Italian Marines to go back and had required them to return)
  

• March 03, 2013 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF INDIA, CIVIL APPELLATE JURISDICTION IA 4 OF 2013 IN SPECIAL LEAVE PETITION (C)NO. 20370 OF 2012 MASSIMILANO LATORRE AND ORS. Petitioner(s) VERSUS UNION OF INDIA AND ORS. Respondent(s) (From the judgement and order dated 29/05/2012 in WPC No.4542/2012 of The HIGH COURT OF KERALA AT ERNAKULAM)[7] (Copy of Supreme Court’s order restraining Italian Ambassdor from leaving India. )
  

81.240.166.234 (talk) 09:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Speculative issues & Conspiracy theories

Olympic Flair, the Greek tanker

ICC Commercial Crimes Service register indicates that a ship reported an attempted pirate attack while docked 2.5 miles away from Kerala coast. However, the ICC report of this incident makes no mention of the name of the vessel involved.

On 21 February, the Hellenic Merchant Marine categorically stated said that no Greek ship was involved in a piracy attack off the coast of southern India in recent days.

Staffan de Mistura, the Italian Deputy Foreign Minister, has recognised that the death of the two fishermen was an "accidental killing" and an "unfortunate incident" which occured after the two marines used lethal force from onboard the Enrica Lexie.

In April 2013, La Repubblica released excerpts of the Italian Navy military investigative report by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli which confirms that NATO bore bullets from 2 guns from Enrica Lexie were in bodies of fishermen. The Alessandro Piroli dossier which compiled the findings of the 5-member military investigation team sent to India and was submitted to the Italian government in May 2012. Furthermore, the report also concurs with the Indian Coast Guard's estimated time and location of the shooting. Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli's report details interviews with the VPD team members, civilian crew of Enrica Lexie, analysis of data recorded in the ship log-book of MV Enrica Lexie, photographs taken by the VPD team members during the incident and detailed forensic examination of the victims in addition to the ballistic investigation of the weapons and ammunition involved in the shooting.

Intervention by Catholic Cardinal of Kerala

According to Vatican-based Catholic news agency Agenzia Fides, the newly consecrated Cardinal of the Catholic Church, Mar George Alencherry from Kerala, has called for a "peaceful solution" to the issue. He has appealed to the Kerala government not to resort to "precipitate action" and warned the opposition against trying to exploit the situation. He said, "I am and will remain in close contact with the Catholic Ministers of Kerala and I hope that they will help to pacify the situation."
However, a spokesman of the Kerala-based Syro-Malabar Church said that the statement of Alancherry was "distorted" by media and he had not said anything that went against India's position on the issue.
The news report from the Vatican Insider quotes Alencherry as follows, "I learnt about the Catholic fishermen who were killed: it is very sad. I contacted Catholic ministers straight away, asking the government in Kerala not to act hastily. Errors of course were made during the incident, as fishermen were mistaken for pirates. The point, however, is that it seems the opposition party wants to take advantage of the situation and manipulate the case for electoral reasons, making reference to western powers and to America’s attempt to gain supremacy."
The Cardinal later issued a press statement which said, "The report of the Italian press agency is wrong. The agency removed the report and expressed their apology for the mistake. I have not tried to intervene in this matter, nor have I contacted any ministers regarding this. Two precious lives have been lost. Strong legal action should be taken against the guilty."

Link to Finmeccanica VIP helicopter bribery scandal

Clearly, my edits to provide a neutral point of view (also including the Government of India's version) has been vandalized by 81.240.136.254. Either take away the complete section, or please NPOV. This section is now simply rumors and speculations, especially since there has been only improvement in Indo-Italian relationship, after the return of the Marines. Dexter73 (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I second your stance. BTW NPOV has always been a problem for this article, since it is about ongoing event with two conflicting sides and very little in between. 89.97.208.106 (talk) 17:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I feel that section should remain for the following reasons :

(1) the possibility of a 'link' is more than just a random hypothesis coming from a lone-wolf politician. The Indian media has relayed opinions from editorials by leading political commentators and more importantly politicians who have gone on record in the Indian Parliament raising the likely-hood of a link between the helicopter scandal related investigations in Italy and the Indian govt's handling of the Italian marines.

(2) you cannot wish away the fact that the Indian opposition parties have officially warned the UPA government in Parliament that they will not accept delays in the Finmeccanica kick-back investigation on the pretext of the diplomatic spat between Italy and India. So, this simple fact shows that the Indian Govt was pressured into not accepting the mofified 'status-quo' when Italy unilaterally decided not to return the marines

(3) no one can wish away the fact that media was awash with info on how the UPA govt was gong 'soft' on the marines right from the beginning of this incident in february 2012 and linked this all to the "Italian connection" through Ms.Sonia Gandhi.

(4) Considering that other 'hypothetical' happenings (supposed involvement of a Greek tanker, supposed intervention of a Catholic Cardinal, etc.,) have made it to the main page with sections of their own, it is fair that this supposed happening which has found extremely wide media coverage also warrant a section in it's own merit.

81.240.136.254 (talk) 20:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks 81.240.136.254 for your original research. But sorry, you fail to convince me. And I am not interested in the other sections, if you want you are free to correct them or put it under NPOV. Two wrongs does not make a right. I fail to understand why you should remove my edits which states the governments point of view. What is wrong in that? My links to the governments website on the CBI enquiry, the statements of the Defense minister, and newspaper articles on CBI raids on the scam, the receipt of documents from Italy on this issue: these are not worth mentioning for NPOV according to you? I don't get it! Why are you insisting that only one side of the story should appear in Wikipedia? Dexter73 (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I have included info to say that the Indian Defense Minister has said that the CBI is actively investigating the matter. 91.182.125.1 (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the arguments made by /81.240.136.254 and opine that the section on Finmeccanica VIP helicopter bribery scandal needs to stay. 82.236.51.211 (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Postal Ballot

Italian consulate says that ANY Italian citizen who is in a foreign land (irrespective of the motives) can be registered onto their "AIRE" (AIRE = Registry of Italian citizens residing abroad) consular data-base provided they have a valid local residency document issued by the local Government. [8] Any Italian citizen has just to produce any type of 'leave to remain' (visa OR residence card OR any other document with address proof). Only 2 conditions need to be fulfilled to vote by postal ballot (1) be registered on the AIRE database and (2) apply for eligibility to vote at-least 10 days prior to the elections. For more info also read "General Elections 2013, voting by Italian citizens living abroad" [9] (Italian Ministry of Interior website) 91.182.125.1 (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Military investigation report by Admiral Alessandro Piroli

1. An Italian Official Reconstruction of the facts now (finally) exist. Unfortunately I just found an Italian language version, I will look later for translations: [10]

An important part is that it would seem that rifles allegedly found to be the ones that shoot were not those assiged toGirone and Latorre, but to other colleagues of them LNCSRG (talk) 11:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I am interested in reading the english translation of this official reconstruction of 'facts'. Please do upload it here or provide a link that can be viewed by readers for independent opinions & fact-checking verifications.

All of a sudden a whole lot of information is being revealed in the Italian media. Extracts from Admiral Alessandro Piroli's preliminary military report has hit the stands in Italy on 6 April. Also, Terzi has given several interviews saying that he was the one who did not want the Enrica Lexie to dock in India and also that he was by-passed by the Italian President who appointed Mistura as his Special Envoy to India (allegedly without Terzi being informed).

Can someone obtain the full version of the Admiral Alessandro Piroli investigation report mentioned in the Italian media ? From the extracts that are viewable on the LA REPUBBLICA website, it is clear that Italian manufactured NATO bore bullets shot from barrels of 2 guns assigned to the Enrica Lexie VPD team were in bodies of fishermen.

Many Italian newspapers are currently publishing extracts of Admiral Alessandro Piroli's report at this point of time

SOURCES (In Italian for the time being) = [11] [12] [13] [14]

Please use GOOGLE TRANSLATE tool to get an 'approximate' readable translation till someting better is printed in english.

81.240.143.138 (talk) 07:29, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Please read this article (translated ofcourse with Google Translate) [15] & [16]

Ballistics investigation (as from Alessandro Piroli's report) categorically confirms that ENRICA LEXIE and the SAINT ANTHONY were indeed involved in the shooting incident. Reason: Fragments of NATO bore bullets & tracer ammunition that were fired from 2 rifles issued to VPDs on Enrica Lexie were found in the bodies of the fishermen) So, we can TOTALLY DISCARD the Greek tanker conspiracy theory. The report mentions striking similarities between photos taken by VPD team on Enrica Lexie and the media footage of the Saint Anthony fishing vessel.

The TIME and LOCATION of the incident also seems to confirm the Indian Coast Guard statements given to the Indian courts.

81.240.143.138 (talk) 10:04, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

KINDLY REFRAIN FROM INCLUDING CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS

@ All contributors : There are many contributors who submit in good faith and strive to improve the quality of the article and keep it updated as and when new facts emerge. However, it is unfortunate that there are a few who resort to indiscriminate page vandalism based on past hypothesis that are no longer valid (in view of newly disclosed information from the courts or the news media). So, I appeal that good sense prevails. THANKS ALL !!!

 Onlyfactsnofiction  (talk) 18:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Why are Italian origin contributors bent upon VANDALIZING this article with OLD CONTROVERSIES ?

Please, consider the following point : yes, indeed the Italian parliament was briefed about many things by the Italian Government in 2012 and 2013. BUT THERE IS ONE CRITICAL DEVELOPMENT that has occurred over the past fortnight : the preliminary Italian investigation report compiled by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli has been 'leaked' to the media in Italy.

Italian media have expressed surprise that such an important report (submitted in MAY 2012) has been kept away from public scrutiny and are questioning the intentions of the Italian Government in keeping this report secret in light of the numerous speculative controversies that have surrounded the shooting incident involving the VPD team of the Enrica Lexie.

For information on the preliminary Italian investigation report compiled by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli please refer to links already provided on this TALK page under a separate section.

Italian readers can read (and also download in PDF format) the original print version of the La Repubblica article on the Italian Ministry of Defence website's media section here [17] 06/04/2013 - "LA REPUBBLICA", Pag. 19 I MARO' E I PESCATORI INDIANI QUEI 33 MINUTI DI TERRORE di: MAURA GUALCO and [18] 07/04/2013 - "LA REPUBBLICA", Pag. 17 "MARO', ECCO TUTTE LE COLPE DEL COMANDANTE DELLA LEXIE" di: MAURA GUALCO

81.240.166.234 (talk) 09:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Italian media has severely criticized the Italian Government for allowing controversies (about TIME, LOCATION and the actual details of the SHOOTING to pollute the general public's understanding of the happenings on-board the ENRICA LEXIE oil tanker) to continue DESPITE knowing from Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli's report that (quoting from the report) : "For the sake of completeness we summarize the results which would reach the Indian authorities (...) were analyzed four bullets, two found on the fishing boat and two bodies of the victims. Exhibits showed that the ammunition is of caliber 5.56 mm NATO made in Italy. The tracer extracted from the body of Valentine Jelestine were fired from the rifle with serial number assigned to First Corporal Andronico Massino. The bullet extracted from the body of Ajiesh Pink were fired from the rifle with serial number assigned to Sergeant Vogilano Renato."

From the report compiled by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli we can see that many controversies are immediately extinguished. REASON: Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli states the fact that NATO bore bullets issued to marines and fired from guns issued to the VPD team on Enrica Lexie were found within the bodies of the dead fishermen

The new revelations from the Italian military investigation report of Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli immediately lifts the veil on many 'unknowns' namely :

(1) Greek oil tanker OLYMPIC FLAIR controversy

(2) TIME & LOCATION of the incident

(3) official Italian military opinion on whether the Enrica Lexie properly applied the IMO anti-piracy protocol on RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

(4) Italian military opinion on whether the Italian VPD team followed all steps of the gradual use of force in the event of piracy

(5) the report also comments in detail how lethal force was used against the fishing vessel

(6) the report also mentions that the Italian investigators have several photographs of the fishing vessel and that the photography appear to concur with the paint-scheme and physical aspect of the SAINT ANTHONY fishing vessel

(7) the report categorically states that the tanker should have taken steps to avoid the fishing vessel and that the fishing vessel had navigational right of way (8) according to Italian Navy Admiral Alessandro Piroli the tanker did not initate any steps to avoid the fishing vessel even though it had identified the fishing vessel on it's radar well before hand. The report is critical of the captain of the Enrica Lexie in stating that he initiated his manoeuvrings only when he was within 500 meters of the fishing vessel and the tanker started turning away when it was less than 100 meters from the fishing vessel

(8) The Alessandro Piroli report also takes care to detail why and how the Enrica Lexie was brought into the port of Kochi after interception by the Indian Coast Guard and Indian Navy.

Please (Italian readers and contributors) take note of the entire contents of the preliminary Italian investigation report compiled by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli which has been released on the LA REPUBBLICA website [19] & [20] before re-starting a debate with old and outdated information.

81.240.166.234 (talk) 08:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

VANDALISM BY ITALIAN ORIGIN IPs

Here we go once again ! We have page vandalism by Italian origin IPs ! 82.236.51.211 (talk) 07:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Please help monitor this article as it is being repeatedly vandalised by IPs originating from ITALY !

82.236.51.211 (talk) 08:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually I think what you call vandalism is just Italians reporting things according to Italian official stance, that, we know very well, differs significantly from the Indian one.

BTW, half of this article deals with this problem of contrasting and irreconcilable versions of the facts, not to mention interpretations of the international law LNCSRG (talk) 09:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Not to forget that even within the Italian stance there are conflicting opinions on what really took place. Former FM Terzi claiming that there was subterfuge by Indian police (only to be rebuffed by Indian authorities who dismissed his claims as allegations because Italy has NEVER taken any steps to show ANY proof that the Enrica Lexie was brought to port as a result of subterfuge by Indian police authorities).

On a different aspect of disagreement, Italian claim of piracy assault, it is pertinent to note that the deputy FM Mistura and also Italian PM Monti have publicly recognized in various statements that refer to the incident with words like 'accidental shooting', 'mistook the fishermen for pirates', etc., thereby seeming to accept that the Italian marines did err in their judgement and opened fire on the Saint Anthony thinking that it was a pirate skiff.

I for one would like to understand how/where/what happened by reading official documents from Italy investigation authorities (even if not in the minutest of details, just like what has been submitted to the Indian courts by Indian investigative authorities). To date, the Italian defense attorneys in India have submitted nothing at all as proof to substantiate any of their version of events (no photos, no VDR recordings, no radar tracks, no transcript of communications exchanged with Italian authorities in Rome, etc.,).

As things stand, it appears that there is more information about the chronology of events on board the Enrica Lexie from the Indian investigations which were submitted in court. The total black-out on what and where the Italian investigation has uncovered is unfortunate because it would be easy to confront the proof submitted by both sides.

My humble opinion is that India could disclose coastal surveillance data to establish who/what kind of boats were in the vicinity of the Enrica Lexie during the course of her voyage off the coast of India. Italy for it's part should disclose proof to substantiate it's claims of subterfuge and also about the piracy assault by a skiff.

81.240.143.138 (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

LA REPUBBLICA released excerptes of the minitary investigative report by Admiral Alessandro Piroli which confirms NATO bore bullets from 2 guns of enrica Lexie were in bodies of fishermen. Furthermore, the report also concurs with the Indian Coast Guard's estimated time of the shooting. Admiral Alessandro Piroli (senior most Italian investigator sent to India) came to this conclusion following interviews with the VPD team members, log report of Enrica Lexie, interview with civilian crew (Captain of Enrica Lexie) and also ballistic investigation. 81.240.143.138 (talk) 08:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

ARTICLE CLEAN-UP SUGGESTION

@contributors : May I suggest that the "2012 Italian shooting in the Arabian Sea " article be cleaned-up by discarding old information in view of the recent developments in this case ?

The candidates for removal are all the CONSPIRACY THEORIES that have been fanned by fringe elements in the media and sustained by politicians.

We can quite safely assume that the official documents compiled and submitted by duly accredited government investigators to the courts and/or respective governments are genuine information sources.

Amongst those government documents which have made their way to the internet are :

• Indian court documents (including coast guard, navy and police investigation documents in addition to Italian affidavits)

• Italian military investigation (the Alessandro Piroli report)

I hesitate to add add official press releases from government ministries and agencies to this list because there have been cases where (for political reasons or otherwise) there have been press statements in both India and Italy which have been misleading. So, I would not venture to blindly trust press statements (especially from politicians) unless it is cross-verified independently with facts.

This is a suggestion that I submit here for comment. So, please feel free to add your constructive inputs.

 Onlyfactsnofiction  (talk) 06:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverts by User talk:I dream of horses

@User talk:I dream of horses: Most wikipedia contributors take time to contribute in improving articles in good faith.

Your revert action of my contributions took you just a few seconds but in the process destroyed work on the article which took me a few hours to compile & collate data, imagine text layout schemes, optimize texts (for display on desktop and mobile devices), etc.,

Looking at your talk page archives I see that you have a track-record of often resorting to deletions/reverts and then claim that it was a 'mistake'. This attitude is really not constructive.

I will however take time to explain the methodology of text editing in my contributions.

Specifically compare diffs [21] and understand that I have NOT DELETED any of the text contributed by user "Aries force" but simply REGROUPED the text it together with other text excerpts from the Alessandro Piroli report.

With your reference to my edit [22], do keep in mind that

• 1/ we are dealing with many quotes which are no more than partial sentences and which
• 2/ are not readily incorporable into article when translated with an online translation tool (see for yourself [23] & [24]) and
• 3/ therefore need to be completed with publicly available investigation data/info, like for example Indian/Italian court affidavits (which can be considered genuine since they were vetted and submitted under oath by State actors), so that a more intelligible translation of the text can be provided and
• 4/ be improved as and when new details emerge or become noticed

This is this methodology that I have used in recompiling the numerous extracts of the Alessandro Piroli report that were contained in various parts of the article (and also elsewhere on the internet) into one sub-section.

For all the above-stated reasons, kindly note that I have reverted your deletion of my contribution.

In view of your track-record of repeated reverts/deletions of contributions on Wikipedia, I have placed a EDIT WARNING on your talk page and will be obliged to escalate the matter if you continue to cause disruption to the article.

If you have any suggestions to improve this article, then please make it here instead of deleting contributions without offering any alternative solutions.

81.240.166.234 (talk) 23:39, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

@81.240.166.234: Good work of article clean-up and review. Keep it up !

91.182.207.229 (talk) 07:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)