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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JHunterJ (talk | contribs) at 02:57, 21 April 2013 (→Somaya Reece: also, please use standard Wiki markup, retaining the bullet/indent of the paragraph you're responding to, and adding a new trailing indent (or bullet where appropriate, not here)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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17 April 2013

Mabel Richardson

Mabel Richardson (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe that this deletion debate should have been relisted for a clearer consensus rather than closed as keep. There were two keep !votes for every delete, but of the six people who suggested keep, two were new users who went straight to deletion debates upon signing up, one was user who has made a few edits since signing in late December, all of which were to longevity articles, one was the article creator, and no one provided any policy-based or source-based rationale for their !vote, but instead used their subjective judgement on what they felt was notable. While I certainly don't believe that there was a consensus to delete, given the history of canvassing offline about longevity articles (among other problems with articles such as these), I believe that relisting the debate to allow for more unbiased/neutral opinions would have been appropriate in this case. A recent comment on the article's talk page suggests that the proposed deletion would have benefited from further debate. Canadian Paul 20:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with the above. Boleyn (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse or Overturn (to no consensus to delete). Follow advice at Wikipedia:Renominating_for_deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • overturn The only claim to significant notability is, as is said, from IMDB, so it's worthless. After that the only real claim is for someone else. The keep votes relied on the unreliable notability claim and can be discounted. Mangoe (talk) 12:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I wrote the article's talk comment, but it wasn't about the worthiness of the article, only the worthlessness of the DYK as worded (and DYK Talk has conceded that a better hook would have been the actress's longevity). I'd mentioned how the original AfD-keep decision had been hampered by a cite-ref to a pay firewall site but I didn't say AfD-keep was wrong! Nor that one shouldn't make a decision based on a pay firewall source (it was all fairly looked into, and the full source-text is readable at '100 Club, topic 1088' although that website's host is unfortunately Wiki-blacklisted, preventing direct cite-ref). Having come across the article from an unbiased/neutral position and looked into the article subject quite deeply yesterday (also read various cite-refs including ones deleted in early April) I feel there's an even stronger case for keeping it. The subject is worthy of remark for a) her longevity, b) her having known and worked with some major film stars, although she herself did not achieve fame, and c) because the article states her husband accompanied Chaplin (!!) to the USA on his first? visit. I think more may emerge about this in time (the article only makes the barest mention), and therefore both this article and a possible future one about her husband could well become important silent film era "stubs". Pete Hobbs (talk) 18:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Looking at the !votes, I believe a keep close is not justified. Of the six keep !votes, three (Futurist110, sophiahounslow, ExRatargue that the person is notable because of her age. However, notability is not for us to judge but for reliable sources to state so these three keep !votes should have been ignored. A fourth, Oscarlake, states that the combination of age and acting makes her notable. But, again, that's a personal opinion and needs to be backed up by a reliable source. The Listmeister keep !vote is sounder but the "oldest" statement is sourced to IMDB which is definitely not a reliable source. The final keep !vote, Miskatonik, quotes the Press-Telegraph article which, at least in the free summary, doesn't really assert notability. All in all, I'm not sure what the rationale for a keep decision is here. --regentspark (comment) 20:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a clear consensus to keep, and the closer correctly identified it, so no blame attaches to him and I would prefer not to use the word "overturn". If he made an error in not checking the debate participants' contribution histories, then it was an understandable one. But I agree with the nominator's comments about the risk of sockpuppetry in longevity-related discussions, and I can well understand his concerns. There's honest doubt about whether this consensus is real or engineered. Relist with a semi-protected AfD so that we can have a discussion that's convincingly sockpuppet-free and will give the nominator confidence in the outcome.—S Marshall T/C 07:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Somaya Reece

Somaya Reece (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

No consensus was reached in the discussion. Discussed with closing admin first. JHunterJ (talk) 11:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Jokes aside, I find this a very hard one. It's on a murky line between "no consensus" and "delete" depending on interpretation of specific words in the GNG. If the nomination was from a less clueful editor, I'd be quick to side with "admin discretion". Given that an experienced admin disagrees with another's application of discretion, I'm leaning Relist for another 7 days, hoping for further participation, current participants positions already well stated. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review Altho a BLP, I see nothing potential derogatory or harful to prevent temporary restoration. DGG ( talk ) 16:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discussion-based processes on Wikipedia are not a sham. They are genuine and meaningful attempts to seek consensus and implement it.

    In my view, the reason why Darkwind, Starblind and RegentsPark are wrong is because their reasoning is based on the closer's evaluation of the sources. It's not up to the closer to evaluate sources. Sysops do not make content decisions. They're not empowered to. Sysops evaluate consensus.

    If it was up to sysops to evaluate sources, then there would be little purpose in discussion-based processes on Wikipedia and we might as well replace AfD with a list of articles for administrators to examine and delete or retain based on their personal judgment. But we don't do that. Our processes are not a sham.

    I was assisted in reaching this conclusion by one of my big red flags of a poor close: the closer uses the closing statement to give you their opinion. That's a really annoying habit because it falsely implies that the closer's personal opinion was actually the consensus in the debate. It's not what closing statements are for. If you want to express an opinion, vote. Your closing statement is your chance to explain your assessment of the consensus in a neutral way. It should be used only for that purpose.

    Overturn and relist for another sysop to close based on an assessment of consensus rather than his opinion of the sources.—S Marshall T/C 08:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe that the sources are evaluated in the discussion itself, i.e., the delete !voters have pointed to the weaknesses in the sources. If a !voter says that the sources amount to "trivial coverage", how can the closing admin evaluate that claim without looking at the source itself? (I assume darkwind did not merely accept the claim at face value.) --regentspark (comment) 13:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    And the keep !voters pointed to the ways the sources met the guidelines, and there was no consensus between them. It's not that the keep !votes were using reasons outside the guidelines (and so the closing admin should have discarded those arguments), it's that there was no consensus whether the guidelines were met. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    There's a difference between a disagreement and a consensus. The difference is that a consensus is based on the weight of previous discussions in the form of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and that consensus is that trivial coverage of this type does not warrant a Wikipedia article; disagreeing does not create "no consensus" in that regard any more than it would create a "no consensus" that VH1 is an independent source for this article. - SudoGhost 15:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The coverage is trivial according to whom? Whose judgment prevails?—S Marshall T/C 16:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Good question. But, if one user says that the coverage is trivial and another says it is not, then do we close every such discussion as 'no consensus' because the closing admin should not read the source? If that were the case, then everything that is mentioned in any source at all would be an automatic keep - which doesn't make sense. Our policy says that trivial mentions are insufficient for notability and it is the closing admins job to evaluate whether the mention is trivial or not. --regentspark (comment) 16:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    According to the elaboration given at WP:GNG. When an editor's judgement is that VH1 is an independent source for someone on a VH1 reality show, it doesn't inspire confidence when they then say that a single brief mention in a reference is anything more than trivial coverage; this is one of the articles he added that supposedly showed notability, and that is as trivial as a source can get. That editor's judgement is the only "keep" rationale given, the other two were "per JHutnerJ" and an IP editor claiming that biographies shouldn't have to show notability. That single rationale might be a disagreement, but it does not create lack of consensus in doing so. - SudoGhost 16:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see that JHunterJ disposed of that exact point during the debate by reference to the exact wording of WP:GNG.  We can't decide here whether the sources were trivial because this is not AfD round 2.  What matters is whether there was consensus that the sources were trivial.

RegentsPark's argument is that where two users disagree, sysops need to look at the source to decide which is right.  This is a respectable argument, and I agree that can happen where one user is obviously and plainly mistaken.  I don't think this was in that discretion area.  JHunterJ's a user of sufficiently distinguished contribution history to command any closer's respect; the points he raised should not have been disregarded in that way.—S Marshall T/C 17:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is a difference between "being disregarded" and not making a rationale consistent with Wikipedia's guidelines; I didn't give that example as an "AfD round 2", it was linked to show that JHunterJ's rationale was not based on Wikipedia's definition of trivial, per WP:GNG, and therefore does not give much weight in determining consensus. Are you really suggesting that "a user of sufficiently distinguished contribution history" should be given more consideration than other editors on the sole basis that they have a longer contribution history? - SudoGhost 18:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not all users are equal. This is not a democracy; there's no bill of rights here. Our processes exist to support content contributors, not the other way around. Content contributors are given a great deal of leeway.

    While everyone has a voice in debate, I think it's undoubtedly true that to an experienced closer, some voices carry more weight than others. Certain users seem to have special needs of some kind, or perhaps edit while medicated, and are best quietly disregarded. Users with a handful of contributions who focus on a single topic area; users who always !vote to "keep" everything regardless of how trivial and unencyclopaedic; users who always !vote to "delete" because even when the title should be a bluelink, it's easier to start with a clean sheet; users who create few articles and are mainly discussion-page gadflies rather than encyclopaedia-builders; these are examples of less credible !votes that will sometimes, rightly, be given less weight. On the other hand, users who have long and varied experience, a track record of well-reasoned and thoughtful comments in discussion, and a long string of solid and unproblematic content contributions to their credit, who are clearly here to build an encyclopaedia, are less lightly dismissed.—S Marshall T/C 19:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I disagree completely, I think the rationale should hold more weight than who says it. It is true that experienced editors tend to give more convincing rationales that are in-line with how Wikipedia operates, but such an opinion is given more weight because of the rationale, not because of the editor who says it. Conversely, an editor with very few edits can make a wonderful rationale, the amount of time spent on Wikipedia does not detract from that nor is it given less consideration for that fact. When an experienced editor gives a poor rationale, it holds little weight because the rationale doesn't hold up when viewed through the lens of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, that fact shouldn't be ignored simply because there is a claim of "long and varied experience". That is an argument from authority and isn't how Wikipedia operates on any level. - SudoGhost 20:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again I disagree, there is a difference between "authority" in administrative decisions and "authority" in an individual's capacity as an editor; one exists, the other does not. - SudoGhost 20:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't agree with your first comment's assessment, because the sources are evaluated in the discussion; explaining why there was not a "no consensus" does not mean it was an opinion of their own. I also don't think that a flimsy pretext of "these very trivial sources aren't actually trivial" by a single editor would create a "no consensus" that would enable the article to be kept on Wikipedia. The article has been deleted via AfD discussions twice now, and if there truly is "no consensus" that this has changed, it shouldn't be kept anyways when multiple discussions have already determined that it doesn't belong on Wikipedia and there is "no consensus" to the contrary. - SudoGhost 21:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - Per my comment above (disclosure, I nominated the article for deletion). - SudoGhost 15:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. This is the third time the article's been deleted. The admin closing the discussion didn't draw their own conclusions about the sources because several of the commenter (myself included) pointed out the weakness of these sources. In the articles pre-AfD state, all of the sources were primary, either from VH1 or from Reece's own websites. The 6 third-party sources were added during the AfD discussion and they were all on the same citation; in my opinion they were rushed strictly for the purpose of adding third party sources instead of making the article more robust Wikipedia content. And rush these sources were, a couple of them didn't even mention the artist's name. All of the sources were about the show. So a !vote to overturn this deletion is saying that a single citation point from six sources (which is overkill) of which some didn't even mention the artist's name is grounds for notability. I disagree. --NINTENDUDE64 20:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    There was nothing rushed about the citations that were added. They were added quickly during an AFD, which is perfectly normal. They all mentioned the artist's name, so apparently you did not read them. Please do not start from your conclusion and then work backwards through your argument, casting disdain on the normal editing process of others along the way. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and relist per SMarshall's sound analysis. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no-consensus. I do not think an immediate relist will get any result other than non-consensus, , but that's a valid alternative. I think we fundamentally simply have no overall consensus about what to do about this sort of a career. My own feeling about the problem is that this sort of notability is as valid as many other popular music artists. FWIW, a more modest article without such promotional content as "Reece is working on launching her own fitness brand that includes DVD's, fitness wear, and protein shakes. " would probably attract less opposition. When I see something like that, my first reaction is to try to find some reason to remove the article. DGG ( talk ) 20:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    So if an article is deleted via AfD twice, the individual's PR people should just recreate the article until there's "no consensus" to delete it? If there's "no consensus" my understanding is that the previous consensus holds until a new consensus changes that. JHunterJ has been the only editor to take part in all four AfDs, so that's certainly not something that has changed in determining any sort of consensus. - SudoGhost 02:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    If the previous article had been recreated, you might be onto something, but since the current article is not the article that the last AfD reviewed, there is no previous consensus on the current article (except perhaps for any particular stable version of it). And your link to the individual's PR people notes that those PR people are no longer involved in creating it, so that bogeyman doesn't seem particularly scary. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not how AfD works; the subject is discussed, not the article. Crap articles are kept all the time because the subject is notable. The consensus that the last two AfDs found was that the subject is not notable, the article has nothing to do with that. The PR claim certainly doesn't check out, given the contributions of those involved with creating the article (you being the exception). - SudoGhost 02:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    And the claim to notability of the subject changed between AfD3 and AfD4

Scooby-Doo 3 (closed)

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