Talk:Jamal al-Din al-Afghani

• Archive 1

  Requested move

  The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

  The result of the move request was no consensus. --Aervanath (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

  ---

  Jamal-al-Din Afghani → Jamāl-al-dīn Asadābādī — Please consult the following sites:
  — [1]. An introduction to the Collected Works of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi.
  — Iran Digital Library. This site gives the full text of the collected letters of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi (collection has been done by Abol-Hassan Jamali Asadabadi and the book has a foreword by one of Iran's all-time greatest scholars, Mohammad Mohit Tabatabai)
  — Iran Chamber Society, by Iraj Bashiri
  — Encyclopaedia Iranica, by Nikki R. Keddie.
  — Wayiran (talk) 14:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

  Survey

  Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

  
  

  • Support: Al-Afghani reminds the wrong idea of his Afghan origin, but Asadabadi is neutral point of view. --Wayiran (talk) 15:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. For the title of the page, it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources. Majority of English Academic sources (including almost all reliable encyclopedias) use the name Jamal-al-Din Afghani or Al-Afghani. Encyclopaedia Iranica is an example of those encyclopedias. Alefbe (talk) 18:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support He was from Asadabad but had to do Taqqiyah. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 15:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - al-Afghani is the most common of his name. The title is used in all other encyclopedias (including Iranica). Tājik (talk) 15:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose He was from a big city of Asadabad, Kunar not from a small newly build town in Iran. Beside He referred to himself as an Afghan over dozen times "Al Afghan-Hai" to indicate He was Afghan. And besides there shouldn't be any excuse to not call himself "Iranian" if he really was Iranian Muslim philosphy
  • Oppose Sayed Jamalludin Afghan was born in Asadabad, Kunar Province, Afghanistan. i cann't understand why the Persian people are allways trying to claim things, what belongs to Afghans and Afghanistan. Like they claim, Jamalludin Balkhi (Rumi) as a Persian, like Sayed Jamalludin Afghan, Persian people have even change their country name from Persia to Iran, to claim the history of Ariana, which is the old name of Afghanistan. than i think by my own, don't have you Persian people your own history..? or do you shame you on your history...? to claim someones history as your own!!

  You people have to understand, this is our history, this are our people and not yours. all i want to tell you al wikipedias and specially Persia people, you can write it 100 times (even by help of non Persia people like virtueelSteve or what ever), to claim Afghan stuffs as your owns but the true will not change, they where Afghans, they are Afghans and will be allways Afghans! my dear brother;) get a life:P Abasin اباسين افعان Afghan 23:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Support: In reply to someone says "it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources." I just have to say that there are lots of wrong thing in what they say. such as naming Iran for years as Persia - according to the Sassanid dynasty and as they called it in Rome. but all over history and Persian literature named as Iran/Iran-zamin (especially in Shahname) and you wont find any Persia in these documents. so It is not an Iranization. We just try to fix wrong habits. to those who say that Asadābād is a newly built town, maybe want to see its page for more information. Beside, how we have to know that his hometown is big or small? there's a bad reason for prove that. Here we don't talk about nationalism, its about a man that think about united Muslims. Now, we just want to talk and know the truth by documents. After all, according to the documents, there are two other proves: 1- "Reports from the colonial British Indian and Afghan government stated that he was a stranger in Afghanistan, and spoke the Persian language with Iranian accent and followed European lifestyle more than that of Muslims, not observing Ramadan or other Muslim rites." It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan. 2 - Why would Naser al-Din Shah Qajar invite and deport a foreigner when there are lots of Iranian clerics and Ayatollahs - include Grand Ayatollah Mirza Hassan Shirazi?P. Pajouhesh (talk) 04:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

  Discussion

  Any additional comments:

  In Persian the proportion of the use of "Asadabadi" over "Alafghani" is 14:1. That means at least in internet, the use of "Asadabadi" is 14 times more than "Alafghani". --Wayiran (talk) 13:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

  The reason behind his title of "Alafghani" is that he wanted to hide his nationality and religion, so he used the title of "Alafghani" to show that he is not Iranian and Shia. --Wayiran (talk) 13:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

  The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

  Tag

  This article needs some copy-edit work. First of all, the most common version of his name in English is "al-Afghani" and not "Asadabadi". Therefore, "al-Afghani" should be used in the article. Secondly, due to the many edits and the constant IP vandalism, this article looks very amateurish. Tajik (talk) 15:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

  "Asadabadi"

  I propose changing "Asadabadi" used throughout the article to "al-Afghani." Any objections? --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

  Afghani should be fine. Alefbe (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

  From his lifetime, his name was Al Afghani. Why do we change his name to Asadabadi ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.113.246.94 (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

  RV

  I have reverted obvious falsifications by an anon IP. Tajik (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

  Jamaludin Afghani, a Tajik?

  It should be mentioned that to modern view of Afghan scholars Jamaludin Afghani was an ethnic Tajik, unnoted his last title since Asabad was during his time a predominant Tajik city. The fake claim of some Iranians on him because of some ridicolous facts (he was a Persian-speaker, possibly his parents moved/fled from Gulnar when Pashtun nomads moved to the region and gained it for their own people->Pashtunization, where Shia and turned out as Sunni etc etc.). With all respect dear writers, but it should also noted the view of Afghan scholars, not only of Iranians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.214.232 (talk) 00:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

  Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. (Ketabtoon (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC))

  No need to discuss this. Overwhelming documentation, written by al-Afghani himself, proves that he was born and raised in Western Iran. He had several names, inlcuding "al-Istanbuli" and "al-Afghani", always with the pruprose to hide his true identity in order to escape oppression in Iran. Most of his political activity was concentrated in Iran, and some contemporary sources mention that he spoke Persian "with Irani accent". That's why the two major standard literary reference books of orientalistics, Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica, explicitely state his origin to be in Western Iran. Tajik (talk) 18:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

  I reverted the article to the previous version.--Inuit18 (talk) 04:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  Abasin

  Before changing and removing content from the article please discuss it here with other editors and after a consensus you can change it.--Inuit18 (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  i said i talk with everyone who want to talk tonight, why has this virtueelSteve or what every have blocked me for 31 hours..?

  come and talk, what is wrong with you people..? he is from my province Kunar, Afghanistan if some has there problems with it or is he/she thinking that i am not right, than come and talk. and i will tell all the admins, i have respect for your works, but if you someone block me, this time than you people have choice a side. and i think it is not right for the reputation of wikipedia and your admins.

  it not right that people are playing with Afghan history, for example watch Ahmad Shah Durrani, Balkhi, Afghanistan history and etc. how do you all would feel if people are playing with the history of your country..? i am sure than you people will view it from other side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abasin (talk • contribs) 23:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

  I have reverted falsifications and removal of academic sources by an IP. Tajik (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

  Square in Teheran

  While the English part ot the plate only reads "Asad Abadi Sq.", the Persian text reads "Midan Sayyid Jamalu-d-din Asadabadi", i.e. "Square of the Sayyid Jamalu-d-din Asadabadi" (میدان سید جمال الدین اسدآبادی). So the square honours the person, not the city. Worth mentioning is the use of "Asadabadi" as part of his name instead of "Afghani"; I assume the former is preferred in Iran.--Filius Rosadis (talk) 13:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

  Requested move (2)

  The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

  The result of the move request was: Moved: reverted move made after no consensus to move. Omitted macrons in al-Afghani as they were not requested for Jamal-al-Din and were not in the original title. — kwami (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  ---

  Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi → Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī — This is the correct title and the stable version of the article had that title. A user moved this page without discussion and was against the request with result "no consensus". I think the page has to be moved back. --Xashaiar (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

  Xashaiar: This is not the first time that I see you opining on issues that you demonstrably know nothing about. Take the trouble and read the collected letters of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi, here. After that, you will realise the dismal state of your knowledge regarding Iran's history! No one with a modicum of knowledge regarding the relatively recent history of Iran would place such a request as you have done here above. Last time around exactly this time of the year you were opining on the contents of the Haftsin table, forcing a falsehood into the minds of others (see here; you must have seen my last comment on the talk page of Nowruz, here). It seems to me that you mistake your wishes with historical facts. Here one reads:

  Life. Jamāl-al-dīn was born in the village of Asadābād, near Hamadān, into a family of local sayyeds. According to the best evidence, he was educated first at home, then taken by his father for further education to Qazvīn, to Tehran, and finally, while he was still a youth, to the ʿatabāt, the Shiʿite shrine cities in Iraq. Judging from his early copying and lifelong retention of treatises by leaders of Shaikhism, he was influenced by this Shiʿite school, which was noted for its “Fourth Pillar,” the need for the world always to have a “perfect man.” This idea was echoed in Afḡānī’s famous speech that caused his expulsion from Istanbul in 1870 (see below). Afḡānī was also influenced by the ideas of certain Muslim philosophers, especially Iranian ones; works of such figures as Avicenna, Naṣīr-al-dīn Ṭūsī, and Mollā Ṣadrā are found among his books. In addition, Afḡānī’s approach to modern problems was influenced by the still living school of traditional Islamic philosophy with its strong emphasis upon the use of the rational faculty. (N. R. Keddie)

  Essentially, Asadabadi took many different names to escape the chance of being extradited to Iran, where certain death awaited him. Iran constantly demanded extradition of him to Iran, however Sultan Abdul Hamid II would not oblige (being an Afghani, and not an Iranian subject, would at this juncture prove very convenient); he relented however partly by first putting three of the close associates of Asadabadi in jail in Trabzon, and later extraditing them to Iran. The three, who incidentally were Azali Babi's (one of them, Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi, was the son-in-law of Sobh-e Azal), were killed in the most gruesome way in Tabriz almost immediately after their arrival in Iran. It is a historical fact that Mirza Agha Khan Kermani, aka Mirza Reza Kermani, who assassinated Naser al-Din Shah Qajar, did this at the instigation of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi.

  Lastly, the name "Afghan" as referring to Afghanistan, is relatively new; historically, what we had was the Greater Khorasan (see the Great Game, Anglo-Persian War and Treaty of Paris (1857) --- Asadabadi was born in 1838!). -BF 21:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC).

  BF, why do you make such irrelevant comments here? EIs and EIr (two reliable sources on the topic) have their articles with the correct title. Here is no different. If you disagree please write "oppose" and that's it. If you agree write "support". I have no extra time to explain to you this. Please take your time and read wp:RS and wp:commonname. Wikipedia must be reliable. Xashaiar (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

  Xashaiar: There is nothing irrelevant about my comment, and I did not ask anyone, including you, to "explain" things to me. (You must just stop pretending -- I am not here to argue with you; have already seen enough of you last year -- just go back and read the pile of untruths you wrote on the talk page of Nowruz; then as now, you pretended to know things which you demonstrably did not. I might have forgiven you, had you been moved if by nothing else, by my last comment on that page, to apologize.) It has been from time immemorial the case that Iranians were named, amongst others, after their birthplace; family names as we know them were introduced in the 1920's in Iran (Iran just followed what was introduced some 120 years earlier in Europe through Code Napoléon). Jamal od-Din Asasabadi was born in Asadabad, Hamedan, which is to the West of Iran, one of the farthest places in Iran from the place that later took the name Afghanistan. It can therefore not be more erroneous to call an Iranian born in Asadabad, Al-Afghani. Some people have indeed called him so, but that reflects their ignorance, of history, of the language, of the traditions, and of much more, rather than anything even resembling a historical fact. We are endowed with intelligence, so need not ape others whose lack of knowledge is as brightly shining as the day. --BF 00:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

  • Oppose: I said it before, but according to your request I have to say again that:

  In reply to someone says "it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources." I just have to say that there are lots of wrong thing in what they say. such as naming Iran for years as Persia - according to the Sassanid dynasty and as they called them in Rome. but all over history and Persian literature named as Iran/Iran-zamin (especially in Shahname) and you wont find any Persia in these documents. so It is not an Iranization. We just try to fix wrong habits. to those who say that Asadābād is a newly built town, maybe want to see its page for more information. Beside, how we have to know that his hometown is big or small? This is a bad reason for your claim. Here we don't talk about nationalism, its about a man that think about united Muslims. Now, we just want to talk and know the truth by documents. After all, according to the documents, there are two other proves: 1- "Reports from the colonial British Indian and Afghan government stated that he was a stranger in Afghanistan, and spoke the Persian language with Iranian accent and followed European lifestyle more than that of Muslims, not observing Ramadan or other Muslim rites." It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan. 2 - Why would Naser al-Din Shah Qajar invite and deport a foreigner when there are lots of Iranian clerics and Ayatollahs - include Grand Ayatollah Mirza Hassan Shirazi? P. Pajouhesh (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

  • Support for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghani or simply al-Afghani. These are the names used in all sources (i.e. encyclopedias, books, biographies, documentaries, etc etc.) and we simply have to follow that.

  I also want to add that the comments by user:Mazdakabedi (P. Pajouhesh) and user:BehnamFarid (BF) contain anti-Afghanistan/anti-Afghan tone while trying to lecture us on Iran's history from their perspective. There was no political state or entity by the name of Iran before 1935, it was a loose territory which was known by many different names depending on the inquirers but it was more commonly refered to Persia (Parsi or Parsia... area of Parsi-speaking people), ruled by the Qajar dynasty. Many, including Afghanistan, claim that al-Afghani was born in Asadabad, a village or town in what was then Kabulistan (now Kunar Province) Afghanistan, and from there he immigrated as a child to Iran where he lived for a number of years as Afghan refugee, from Iran he returned to Afghanistan during his late teens and moved to neighboring British-India (Pakistan-India) to advance his studies... and from there he started travelling to other places of the Middle East and then Europe, etc. Changing his article from "Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī" to "Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi" is Iranian nationalistic POV-pushing, misleading, and falsification.--ANP member (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

  Writing stuff like "It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan" itself is a nonsense statement. There are about 1 million Afghans in Iran and I'm sure majority of these (especially the ones born in Iran) speak Persian "with Iranian accent". This is normal for someone who grows up as a child in whatever land (i.e. the Afghans in Britain speak English with British accent and while those who grow up in the United States speak it with American accent).--ANP member (talk) 16:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

  • Oppose for me this is a pretty straight forward question, which name is more frequently associated with the person in question? according to simple google search and with a view of past discussions surrounding this article, I believe that Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi is the correct page for the article. more researchers are likely to search for this term while looking for information as available in the article. and I also like that Sayyid Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī is used to start the article, it is a nice balancing act. Regards  Rmzadeh  ►  03:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

    Sorry to say this but you are showing your typical Iranian nationalism as is the case with the above Iranian nationals. Why do you Iranians keep ignoring the fact that all sources in the world, including Jamal-din himself, use al-Afghani as his last name. You Iranian editors should focus on the fact that the more you show your anti-Afghan emotions here in Wikipedia the more you reveal your hate. Instead of telling us how you feel about the name Afghan or Afghani, which we all know that Iranians (Persians) hate like how Jews hate the name "Hitler", can one of you find a source which mentions "Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi" and we can cite that for also known as. I have searched but was unable to find this, and by the way, Wikipedia guidelines are to favor the name which is commonly used in all other sources, the universal accepted term, which in this case is definately Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī. By the way, I'm not asking for anything but I'm related to him some how. My ancestors used to visit Persia (Iran) and British India (Pak-India) all the time but that doesn't make us Persian or Indians by ethnicity. Remember that in the past, in 1830s in this case, there were no passports, national ID cards, visas, in many cases not even birth certificates. This made travelling much easier as long as you knew the local language and customs. Even today Afghans go back and forth between Afghanistan and Iran, without any documents.--ANP member (talk) 14:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

  In search I got 3,230,000 results for al-Afghani: but only 7,510 for Asadabadi.--ANP member (talk) 15:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

  ANP member: It is detestable that instead of presenting a cogent argument in favour of your point, you accuse people of despicable things! No one hates Afghans! At least I do not; in my private life I have defended Afghans wherever I have detected injustices against them. Bring facts to the table, or else just keep out of the discussions! No useful cause is served by falsely accusing people of things, as cover for hiding our ignorance. The man in question was born in Asadabad (read the man's own works!), and therefore by the traditions of his time he was just "Asadabadi". Take the familiar names that we hear almost every hour of the day: Khomeini from Khomein, Refsanjani from Rafsanjan, Khamenei from Khameneh, Kashani from Kashan, Sistani from Mashhad but his forefather was from Sistan, Javadi Amoli from Amol, etc., etc. I have specifically cited the names of religious personalities, because Asadabadi was both a religious man and came from a religious family, and religious families are more traditional than other, secular, families. If today these people have the name of the place of their births, or the places of birth of their fathers and forefathers, in their names, it follows that a 19th-century man like Asadabadi could not have been born in Asadabad to an Asadabadi family and be named Al-Afghani. In point of fact, for me personally he could have been called Al-Chinese'i, and it would make no difference to me, whatsoever. However, this is not a place were we give expression to our personal preferences; we are here to present the world with the most accurate information, and as the night follows the day and the day follows the night, it is nothing short of utter madness to consider the name of Asadabadi as having been Al-Afghani. I do hope and trust that you will stop calling people names and accusing them of inappropriate things, of nationalism, or of whatever else that are meant to be insulting and to throw a shadow of doubt on their intellectual integrity! As I said above, just talk about facts, or else keep away from the place. -BF 00:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC).

  Oppose move, for the reasons presented above. -BF 04:18, 4 April 2011 (UTC).

  BF, I'm not in the mood to hear your personal experiances with Afghans. I don't need you to lecture me on the relationship between Iranians and Afghans, which is very poor. Just yesterday 8 Afghans were killed by Iran's police very very inhumanly and un-Islamic.[2] Now let's focus on the name change and end this irrelevant/useless/ nonsense about you defending Afghans from injustice, etc. Al-Afghani claimed to be an Afghan from a town (Asadabad) in Kabulistan, Afghanistan. Some Iranians in Iran claim that he was born in a village (Asadabad) in Iran. Al-Afghani said that Iranian man was another person by the same name. The name Jamal-al-Din, especially in that period (1800s), was very ordinary and used by many people. You can find many people using it today as well. Even though Nikki Keddie is a biased person, she is trying to tell readers that Afghani was a liar (misleading authorities about who he was), but on the other hand, she accepts his deportation documents which mentions his Iranian birth, we still explained her. She doesn't mention anything about Afghans in Iran and the possibility of the documents being forged or altered. I've read her entire book about al-Afghani and she appears to believe him as an Iranian no matter what. In any case, both views are addressed in the article. Anout the name change, all sources use al-Afghani, we cannot change this to Asadabadi just to satisfy some Iranians. We must present the article without pushing our own POV or agenda.--Afghan American (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

  Afghan American: This is just to let you know that you seem to be in the wrong place! This is not the place were people lodge complaints about other people and other nations! You may or may not be in the mood for whatever thing, none of which can be any of my business, nor the business of any other Wikipedia editor chancing this page. Regarding your story of Afghanistan in Kabulistan, four points are in order: First, cite a reliable reference in support of your statement; where is Asadabadi's claim recorded? Where and to whom did Asadabadi make such claim? (This is aside from the fact that Asadabadi being a fugitive -- the Iranian state badly wanted him extradited to Iran, he said different things to different people, just to save his skin). Second, it is pertinently not true that "some Iranians claim"! I for one turn out to know Asadabadi through my grandparents and great-grandparents (at home Asadabadi was just a household name). Third, regarding the possibility of so-called "forged documents", this does not belong to the area of history! In writing history, one relies on historical documents and historical evidences that strongly correlate with each other. Things written otherwise, are not historical accounts, but historical novels. Just consider the claim that Asadabadi's left foot had four fingers. This is not impossible (it may even be true), but so long as it is not recorded in some reliable historical documents, such claim cannot be accepted as being part of history. Fourth, that Nikki Keddie were "biased", that is your personal opinion, for which there is no place in Wikipedia. She may or may not be biased, but that is not for us to decide; you had a point if you were able to present references to writings by some professional historians in which they pronounce judgements regarding Keddie's supposed lack of professional integrity, for that is the essence of your claim: that she were a person who distorts history for some ulterior reasons of hers. In closing, I recommend you to address people more politely than you have been doing here (that you are not in some mood is just contemptible language -- it is just undignified for me to even take you seriously with this streetwise language of yours). Elsewhere you accuse me and others of nationalism, which is not a matter up for discussion here -- worse still, you accuse someone of nationalism even while you are demonstrably ignorant of the name of the person who discovered alcohol. You seem to have convinced yourself that people owe you something, which very baldy reflects on your character and your general attitude towards other people who happen not to be Afghan, or Afghan-American, as you seem to be considering yourself. --BF 01:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

  • I just wonder why are you people talk in this rude way. Why are you spread these amount off hate toward the pages. We are just try to talk about an article. Please talk in a polite way. Dear BF, you don't have right to say to others something like "keep away from the place" you say something like that over and over under any discussion. Dear ANP, I don't know how you say something in this way that Iranians hate Afghans! I just wonder according to what you say that. Why every Afghanistani in any article just say something like that. It hurts others. I think you hate Iranians because of their governments behaviors to you. Please people, just talk about the article in a civilized way and just don't spread hate from anyone to any other. And remember, don't write something nationalistic, Just write about something with adequate documents.
  • As I told before, there are lots of proof for this claim. you say something about accent, but it is not true, every ethnic people talk in themselves in their own accent everywhere they live - especially in cities like Tehran: Gilaks in Gilaki, Lors in Lori, Hazara in Hazarajati and etc and in other places at least in first and second generation. so It is not true what you said. Beside, I told another reasons for this claim such as invitation form Nasser-ad-Din Shah. British documents and etc.
  • As I told it before, there are no document about what you said about the trip from Afghanistan to Iran. Document means: a work of non-fiction writing intended to store and communicate information, thus acting as a recording. There are no auto-biography or any kind of signed documents that proof this claim (look at British India documents). P. Pajouhesh (talk) 02:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

  Mazdakabedi, please do not dispense advice! I have been very clear in my statement: I have not taken any person's right to comment, rather said that a comment must contain reasoned arguments and not unfounded accusations. Those who come only to hit and run, by accusing people of unwholesome things, are simply not commenting on what matters, but undermining other people's credibility. -BF 04:25, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

  I followed some of Mazdakabedi's (P. Pajouhesh's) edits and he/she appears to be a vandal, an Iranian nationalist, and a heavy POV-pusher. [3] [4] [5] I get very frustrated when seeing someone do things like this, he/she wastes not only its time but also others'.--Afghan American (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

  I got 141,000 hits for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī and only 140 for Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi and only 81 for Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi.--Afghan American (talk) 04:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

  
  

  Dear Afghan American friend, It is you that behave like a vandal, I even not nationalist, but I'm against any kind of that. You delete others claims and resources. You are really vandal that adding your info to any page without any discussion. I asked you to discuss about your claims first, but you add your info again. Next time be polite or by your rude way, I will request to block you. Beside, which one of these pages you linked are vandalized? If your History knowledge is poor, it's not others problem.

  Just for your information:

  • Every kid knows Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi who first discovered Rubbing alcohol.
  • Everyone knows that Mughal Empire has ties to Iranian history. Today Afghanistan and Pakistan (complete or parts of them) was some days as a part of Mughal Empire and some other day Iranian's (Safavid, Afsharid, Zandid, Qajars). Beside, lots of Iranian artist move to there, co-military actions in Safavid days, Persian language, etc. You are really poor in history.
  • Kabul Shahi is a kingdom in days of collapsing of Sassanids and was a part of Historic Iran (not today Iran). This is not about a politic today Iran. It's about Historic Iran (or as someone named it in west Persia).

  As it seen one time your account become blocked of your behaviors. Please, behave in a civilised way and discuss about your claims first, or you will be blocked again by other users. Here we just talk. It is not about nationalistic behaviors. I answered to your claim in up but you act uncivilized. P. Pajouhesh (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

  • Support for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghani, just because at least in English this is his best known name. There's no conflict if the Persian wiki adopts another criteria, many historical personages are named differently in different countries or languages. The different theories about Jamaluddin's reasons for using this surname should be part of the article. I have to add that I don't see any necessary "nationalism", let alone hatred, in any of the postures. You can be an Iranian nationalist and call him "Afghani" and viceversa. --Filius Rosadis (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

  I think that we had talked about this reason and its inadequacy, above. P. Pajouhesh (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

  • I have no idea who is correct. But the move was made after a request to move had been closed with no consensus. I have therefore restored the article to al-Afghani. (No-one seems to object to the al-, which was not in the original title; I can remove it if they do.) — kwami (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

  Baha'i connection?

  http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/afghani/namihha/namihha.htm

  No, he was neither Baha'i, nor Babi, nor Azali Babi for that matter. He just happened to mix up specially with Azali Babi's (essentially with anybody who had an axe to grind with the Qajars). For instance, Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi, the son-in-law of Sobh-e Azal, was a very close friend of Asadabadi's (Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi died a horrible death in Tabriz when he was extradited to Iran --- if my memory is not failing, it happened at the time of Mohammad-Ali Shah being the Crown Prince residing in Tabriz). One should see things in historical perspective: at the time in particular Baghdad was a place brimming with Iranian fugitives of all hues and stripes, and they included Babi's, Baha'is, and almost any person who had become a persona non grata in Iran. It is interesting though that while Babi's did several unsuccessful attempts to kill Naser ad-Din Shah Qajar, it was Mirza Agha Khan Kermani, aka Mirza Reza Kermani, a devout Muslim, who finally successfully assassinated the latter, and then by the instigation of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi. Mirza Agha Khan Kermani had a personal grudge against the Qajars (the story is very long, and very interesting, but briefly, one of the Qajar Princes had bought from him a great deal of merchandise without paying him for them; when Mirza Agha Khan complained, they put him in jail and under torture made him "confess" that he had lied and the Prince owed him nothing. On being set free later, he moved to Baghdad, where he met Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi. Asadabadi convinced him that the source of all corruption in Iran was the Shah himself and to end that corruption "the tree from which the corrupt branches had sprung [i.e. the princes] had to be uprooted" (I paraphrase). This led to Mirza Agha Khan returning to Iran and assassinate Naser ad-Din Shah. Interestingly, on arriving in Tehran, he went to Haj Shaikh Hadi Najamabadi (after whom the "A Shaikh Hadi Square" in Tehran is named) from whom he received one Tuman (a substantial sum at the time) as financial aid. After the assassination, Haj Shaikh Hadi came to be suspected as aiding and abetting the assassination, but finally was found as not guilty. Najamabadi was a very interesting person: a great teacher to many constitutional revolutionaries, such as Mirza Jahangir Khan Sur-e Esrafil (who is known to be an Azali Babi) and Ali-Akbar Dehkhoda. In the traditions of the day, many people shunned Najamabadi and accused him of either being a Babi or someone with Babi sympathies. Najmabadi is known to have given a great deal of financial and moral support for the establishment of the Roshdieh School in Tabriz. --BF 01:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

  Al-Afghani's religion

  Salaam Please remove the word shia under Al-Afghani's photo. He was not shia and it is rubbish. I think that this article has been written by a shia iranian. First of all his name is Al-Afghani, so no shia connecion. Secondly Al-Afghani was one of the precursors of the salaf movement. Then how could Al-Afghani be a shia? Please correct it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

  He was not a Nejasat shia pig ??!!!

  Al-Hemaar, What a big surprise, Jamal-al-din was Sunni, very funny. 90% of muslims (sunnis) consider him as one of the biggest ulema of Ahl Sunna, but in this article he becomes a shia fuck. This article is not neutral and should be written by someone neutral and who knows something about Syed Jamal-Al-Din Al-Afghani. Ummak ya ... Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

  Al-Afghani a piece of shit shia???

  What a big mistake in this page. Al-Afghani's followers and disciples are: Hassan Al-Bana, Syed Qotb, Ghulam Mohammad Niazi, the muslim brotherhood movement,... Are these people shia? NO NO NO, fuck It is strange! A shia ulema who has only sunni followers and no shia follower. Please correct this article and remove the word shia, because he was not a shia. Thank you for your comprehension — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 17:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

  Ayatollah Arab cock-sucker Khomeini was a follower of Assadabadi. All Aranians are against Assadabadi-suck-dick. Why do you think we say Death To Islam? How many of you dare to say that? None! You fools have no balls — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.75.124 (talk) 07:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

  Odd bit about Masonic Lodge

  There is something odd in the similarity between this sentence, at the bottom of the political views section:

  It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Jamal ad-Din Afghani was the chief of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials." [25]

  and this sentence in the page on Mohammed Abduh, at the end of the biography section:

  It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Muhammad Abduh was one of the leading names of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials." [9]

  I don't have access to the book, but it seems odd to me that the author would write almost the exact same thing about Afghani and Abduh in almost identical words. The only difference in wording is that Afghani is said to have been chief of the Masonic lodge and Abduh is said to have been a leading member. Is the reference accurate? Is the book reliable? That is, should we trust that Afghani and Abduh were Masons?

  Whoever added the information seems to have just done a cut and paste job - as evidenced by the beginning "It is a surprising information"

  I recommend that the lines on the Masonic lodge be deleted in both articles unless the source can be verified and someone can explain why this 'surprising information' is relevant.

  I'm also going to post this on the talk page for Mohammed Abduh

  Update: No one replied. I'll remove the lines. --204.191.130.148 (talk) 04:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC) Kno InRes

  again, the masonic link cannot be verified. the same post if you google it is found on wahabi / salafi websites. extremists seems to be posting the same thing.

  until the person (whom i suspect is a wahabi / salafi) who added this line verifies these accusations I will remove it. Mmafactscheck (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

  i have actually found reference to him being a mason at http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/afgani-jamal-al-din which seems quite credible. the previous entry made no sense, a simple cut and past job. Mmafactscheck (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

  
  Encyclopædia Iranica is a Jewish publication in the Colombia University! Have you got a reliable source? Preferably Non-Jewish? ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.75.124 (talk) 07:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

  
  

  
  Born in Iran? Shia? This is a joke, Thanks God that genetics are now proving that these rotten Elamites are nothing but a lie. Their culture, history, language and their very name is a lie. Soon you rotten Elamites and Azeri Turks will be the laughing stock of the whole mankind, once they will know that you call yourselves Iranian (i.e. Aryan), without a drop of Aryan blood in your veins! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.3.65 (talk) 19:04, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

  discrepancy between Death

  There is a discrepancy on his death date. Could someone confirm the correct date? Nobletripe (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2012 (UTC)