Talk:Suburban Express

Speedy deletion

This page does not differ substantially from that of other transportation companies on wikipedia (greyhound, amtrak, et al) in its format and current | eventual content. So just take a step back and keep your mouse under control. Thanks.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.129.139 (talk • contribs) 19:45, November 23, 2008

Controversy

After reviewing the recent edit war, I've removed the "controversy" section for now as mostly unsupported by reliable sourcing. All material must be explicitly supported through reliable secondary sources that explicitly state what is contained in the article. Court records are primary sources, and outside of very narrow situations, are not usable on Wikipedia, as selected extracts are vulnerable to cherry-picking and selective interpretation. Opinion columns are likewise not admissible. The only reliable source presented was the Daily Illini news article, which did not include all the material presented in the controversy section. It appears that feelings are running high and that a social media campaign is underway. Wikipedia may not be used as a vehicle for disparagement, nor is it appropriate to whitewash negative coverage that is supported by multiple reliable sources. Please use this talkpage to work out an appropriate, sourced consensus. I have no opinion on the merits of the controversy section, only about the edit-war and the poor sourcing. The article has been semi-protected for a day: if edit-warring breaks out again, it may be protected for a longer term. I suggest all participants review WP:V, WP:RS, and keep an eye on WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS. Acroterion (talk) 01:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I've also removed an accusation from this page that violated the biographies of living persons policy, which applies throughout Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not to be used as a means of shaming people, regardless of how reprehensible their alleged actions might be. Acroterion (talk) 02:08, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Acroterion's applications of Wikipedia's policies. It is worth taking a pause to (re-)familiarize oneself to all the policies linked above. If you stripped away the POV, court-sourced, newsy, and titillating stuff from the controversy section, as of this writing you'd be basically left nothing. And nothing seems like the right choice until we can come up with a notable, source-based, neutral core narrative around staff-passenger interaction KevinCuddeback (talk) 03:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Strong agree. Wikipedia is not the correct forum for urination contests. That's what blogs are for. 5/5/13 update: users corporatem and negatedvoid seem to be systematically stripping useful content (see pre 4/2013 versions) and adding blog-like heresay to the article. I strongly recommend that this page be restored to its pre-social media campaign state.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenightchicagodied (talk • contribs) 06:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Its clear that as of this writing, we're still struggling to present the "lawsuits" issue in an NPOV way. I have to believe that whatever Suburban Expresses' policies are, they can't be happening just to be "mean", but must have some some larger customer-service and business-efficiency "balance" that, so far, those presenting the issue have been unable to show KevinCuddeback (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Writing the section on the lawsuits in a balanced way is difficult. Above all, however, what we write should be guided by the sources we have on the subject. When I wrote the section on Suburban Express' lawsuits, I tried to write it in a fair way, and to use only reliable sources - i.e. no blogs, user posts on Reddit, or the like. If you think the article is currently unbalanced or unfair, could you be more specific, and could you post additional sources you think we should be using in the article? -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I object to the claim that I have been adding "blog-like heresay" to the article. I've really added almost nothing. I have removed some content, but it was in the aim of removing unverifiable, miscited sources. For example, this citation had literally nothing to do with the text. Or this citation was clearly self-published/questionable (I checked with some help desk helpers before making that change). Looking over CorporateM's edit, it seems to be he was trying to resolve the COI banner that has been on this page since 2008. I think that his new text sounds much neutral. Which information that has been removed do you think was useful and should stay? I'd love to participate in gathering sources and adding more useful content via this Talk page.NegatedVoid (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, have a look at Special:Contributions/Thenightchicagodied. Are you related to Suburban Express? You seem to be sligning unfounded accusations around. I am not a blogger[1]. You called a Legoktm and Thucydides411 (both users with hundreds of edits) Sock Puppets[2]. NegatedVoid (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

NegatedVoid is indeed a blogger with very strong conflict of interest. See http://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/1d3qqc/my_correspondence_with_suburban_expresss_lawyer/. Discussion above fails to address years-old interesting content added by DualFreq and recently stripped and repeatedly removed by above users who feign no conflict of interest. Thenightchicagodied (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2013 (UTC)thenightchicagodied

I haven't denied my Conflict of Interest. That is why I haven't edited this article substantially, and have discussed my changes on here with others. Which of my edits do you contest? As I said, I would participate in a discussion to add any appropriate content. NegatedVoid (talk) 18:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I am a new user and cannot edit the currently protected Suburban Express Wikipedia page, nor do I wish to since I have a Conflict of Interest with Suburban Express from the UIUC subreddit. However, I want to provide the following list of published articles so that a neutral person can edit/rewrite the material on the Suburban Express Wikipedia page, and add in these references.

Many favorable edits were done from the IP address 99.147.29.158 which can be traced to Suburban Express.

I am a new user so I'm not very sure how to sign this entry, I hope this is good enough.

AlmostGrad (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I notice that AlmostGrad was a frequent poster as AlmostGrad100 in the reddit threads about suburban express. Wikipedia is not a place for you to bring your online pissing match. Take it elsewhere. The company history which has now been deleted, no doubt by blog activists, is interesting and unique. No amount of press over a single issue justifies destroying the interesting article which DualFreq wrote. Here is an article which is missing from the list above Popehat: Suburban Express Took the First Bus to Streisand Effect end Thenightchicagodied (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)thenightchicagodied

The current "Competition" section is just an advertisement of the company by its own representatives - how is the reference "Champaign man takes one of the last Concorde trips" relevant? How does a list of self-compiled "trivia" on its own website count as a reliable source? The trivia website is not a reliable resource for the ridership estimate either. The "Competition" section should be removed. AlmostGrad (talk) 03:46, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Collapsing Sockpuppet attempts to force their position. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

AlmostGrad - I would ask you, have you read the source article? Author DualFreq apparently did read it. Unless you have read the article, it is not appropriate for you to comment on its contents. Eyeteststar (talk) Agreed Thenightchicagodied (talk) 05:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)thenightchicagodied Competition section appears to be an attempt at balance by original author. Including competitors would hardly be in the interest of the company. There seems to a concerted effort by serveral users to replace encylopedic content with POV, news and heresay. Blog references are customarily unacceptable. Try to reference conventional media, as it tends to be much more reliable.Thenightchicagodied (talk) 05:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)thenightchicagodied I respectfully disagree. The above user have been consistently removing sourced sections on Lawsuits about the company. News sources are considered reliable for Wikipedia, and you are welcome to remove any part of it that is unsourced. But please desist from removing an important section of the article. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC) thenightchicagodied is a representative of the company who is again removing sourced content that reflects unfavorably upon their business. This archived sockpuppet investigation page[3] is relevant. AlmostGrad (talk) 05:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Pardon, but AlmostGrad stated that s/he has a COI (above, unsigned). Adding properly-sourced content consistent with Wiki principles is fine. Wholesale destruction of stable, older content and replacement with trash is not. I suggest contributing to an article on the streisand effect, first amendment, etc. Eyeteststar (talk) 05:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)eyeteststar I have never denied I have a COI. I have a COI with Suburban Express stemming from my interactions with them on the UIUC subreddit. However, I have only used sourced material in my edits, and I have edited only after CorporateM gave permission to COI authors to edit the page based on the "Links related to Controversy" section. There is no reason to trust older edits just because they are old. The user who first created the Suburban Express page, Fairmont-m19[4], was concluded to be a sockpuppet account making bad-faith edits as long back as 2008. AlmostGrad (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC) The content deposited by Fairmont seems to have been entirely replaced by the user DualFreq. Am I missing something? Also, I'm not an expert on Wiki stuff, but wouldn't someone related to the company be in a good position to know about its history? It seems to me as if the edits going on here are rather destructive. Joshuabcohen (talk) 06:12, 14 May 2013 (UTC)joshuabcohen

found something cool on their website--an old poster. their name wasn't always suburban express — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.119.47.171 (talk) 06:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

User NegatedVoid has a COI yet has posted numerous self-promoting edits to article. NegatedVoid is the blogger who the section added by NegatedVoid refers to. Self-promoting section added by NegatedVoid fails to contribute to article in any sort of productive way. Perhaps NegatedVoid should write an article on himself, since he finds himself so fascinating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.150.246.227 (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Doxing and Impersonation

In the "Lawsuits" section, I had added doxing and impersonation of forum members on reddit as additional reasons for the moderator to delete comments originating from Suburban Express. TheOriginalSoni suggested that I write about this on the talk page and let a non-COI author edit that part of the article. Accordingly, I have deleted the part about doxing and impersonation, and am leaving it to a non-COI editor to modify it. This is how I had written it:

"In April 2013, persons related to Suburban Express posted favorable comments about their company on Reddit using sockpuppet accounts, and doxed, impersonated, and insulted members of the forum who criticized them. The forum moderator deleted the comments and posted a note on the forum's frontpage warning readers about Suburban Express' legal tactics."

Evidence for doxing claim: Excerpt from the Daily Illini article "Suburban Express lawsuits reach 125 this year; conversation continues on Reddit":

"As a part of his job, Finnicum said he has had to remove over a dozen posts that either revealed personal information or spammed the thread since April 19."

I currently can't find any published (in a news source) evidence for the impersonation claim, though Suburban Express' representative(s) impersonated me and the UIUC subreddit moderator on reddit, among many other people. AlmostGrad (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

College papers can be used sometimes, but in this case I think we have better available sources. Additionally, it would be more on-target to say "Finnicum claimed" than to state it as a fact, based on the quoted material. I think this is a case of looking for a source to support the content you would like to add, rather than writing in a way that is representative of the totality of available source material. CorporateM (Talk) 20:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I have googled around and I can find no evidence to substantiate the claim that suburban express used "sockpuppet accounts" to post to reddit. When I look at reddit, I do see repeated claims by user Almostgrad100 that certain users were Suburban Express, on the basis that the comments posted by that user were positive. Almostgrad100's unsupported claims, however, do not constitute proof. Also, please note that user Acroterion removed owner name from article. Suggest you refer to his/her comments above.

Links related to Controversy

Here is a list of articles about Suburban Express and it's controversies. I'm creating a section for it so others can contribute - please don't delete from it, though. It was started by AlmostGrad and moved to it's own section by NegatedVoid.

1. BoingBoing: Suburban Express bus-line sends bullying, cowardly legal threat to Reddit, discovers Streisand Effect
2. Ars Technica: Express to Internet Hate: Bus company threatens redditor with lawsuit
3. Ars Technica: Nonstop to schadenfreude: Suburban Express’ u-turn on reddit lawsuit
4. Techdirt: Bus Company Threatens Redditor With Lawsuit, Meets Ken White, Runs Away
5. The Daily Dot: Bus Company Threatens to Sue Redditor Over Bad Press
6. American Bar Association Journal: Cheap bus ticket included a trip to small-claims court for unwary students
7. Chicago Tribune: Bus company's lawsuits anger students, parents
8. The News Gazette: Bus firm's lawsuits criticized
9. The News Gazette: Bus company promises to drop Ford lawsuits
10. The News Gazette: Bus lawsuits dismissed in Ford County
11. Paxton Record: Bus company suing UI students for violating 'terms and conditions'
12. Paxton Record: After backlash, bus firm pledges to dismiss all suits
13. Paxton Record: Suburban Express lawsuits dropped
14. Kankakee Daily Journal: Bus company drops lawsuits in Ford County against college student riders
15. Popehat: Suburban Express Took The First Bus To The Streisand Effect. Have They Disembarked In Time?
16. The Daily Illini: Suburban Express lawsuits lead to controversy on social media
17. The Daily Illini: Suburban Express lawsuits reach 125 this year; conversation continues on Reddit
18. The Daily Illini: Suburban Express drops lawsuits and updates terms and conditions
19. The Daily Illini: UIUC Subreddit hits front page, Streisand effect leads to increased attention for Suburban Express lawsuits
20. The Daily Illini: Public addresses Illinois Student Senate regarding influx of student-aimed Suburban Express lawsuits
21. The Daily Illini (Editorial): Suburban Express mishandles student allegations
22. The Daily Illini (Opinion Column): Suburban Express causes its own problems
23. The Daily Illini (Letter to the Editor): UI should defend international students, disallow Suburban Express services
24. The Daily Illini (Editorial): University administrators absent in Suburban Express incidences
25. Slashdot: Redditors (and Popehat) Versus a Bus Company
26. Ars Technica: Troll road: Bus company posts “dirt” on complaining passenger
27. Pieuvre.ca: Le pouvoir des masses numériques, pour le meilleur et pour le pire AlmostGrad (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Based on the available source material, I think the topic needs to be covered in greater depth. For example, multiple, credible sources discuss the lawsuit with Reddit, which currently isn't mentioned in the article at all. Per WP:LEAD, the controversy should be included in the lead, however, per WP:CRITICISM, we shouldn't have a dedicated controversy section. There is enough positive(ish) information in the article for a COI editor to expand on the controversy without creating a coatrack article, so long as it is not done to a distasteful extreme. CorporateM (Talk) 02:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps CorporateM should write an article about SLAPP suits, Freedom of Speech, etc. and use these citations in that article. Refrain from hijacking this article to advocate your position on First Amendment stuff. Thenightchicagodied (talk) 05:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)thenightchicagodied

The article is much improved with the additional detail. The controversy should also be summarized in 1-2 sentences in the Lead if anyone is up for it, as the lead is suppose to summarize the entire article, including controversies. The other thing that is needed is a Services section, detailing their routes, prices, buses, etc. CorporateM (Talk) 12:19, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

I updated the language in the competitors section last night to be more neutral and less advertise-y. I can't see any other egregious incidents of neutral POV being violated (though the level of detail certainly indicates the original author is somehow connected to the company), but I'd leave it up to someone else to review the notice at the top of the page. DarkAsSin (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2013 (UTC)