Jump to content

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 June 17

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Categories for discussion | Log

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Beetstra (talk | contribs) at 06:23, 18 June 2013 (→Category:1920s in Saudi Arabia: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

< June 16 June 18 >

June 17

Category:Pritzker Military Library Literature Award Winner for Lifetime Achievement in Military Writing

Nominator's rationale: Delete. Cat created by a WP:SPA attempting forked content, apparently a new user editing in good faith. Bringing it to CFD because one could make a case that a cat could be created for this award, however I don't think it's notable or large enough, not really needed, the couple winners already listed in the article. Green Cardamom (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Social enterprise

Nominator's rationale: We have several cats here:

I feel like all are rather poorly differentiated from one another. There are a few (~15-20) articles on the overall field, and then something like 50-100 companies which would qualify as being a social enterprise (but that again needs better definition) - so it does make sense to me to separate the topic from the organizations - but I'm not sure we need 3 cats to do so.
In any case, I'm not sure the best course here, happy to hear your thoughts. I do think we should get rid of all of the people in Category:Social entrepreneurship, and categorize them into the Category:Founders category as appropriate. I note the category Category:Social entrepreneurs was deleted along with the rest of the Entrepreneurs tree back in 2007.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree to merge from three to two The existing Category:Social enterprises seems to be the best repository for organisations with another - I don't know about the name - for individuals involved. S a g a C i t y (talk) 08:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
for the individuals, we have both Category:Non-profit organization founders and Category:Founders of non-governmental organizations, as well as several others. Category:Social entrepreneurs was deleted a while back. I think one cat for the organizations Category:Social enterprises - with some clear criteria for inclusion so it's not a catch-all for all NGOs - and one more for articles about the general space should suffice - but I'm not sure what that cat should be called - perhaps Category:Social entrepreneurship fits best? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can you clarify your suggestion? It sounds like you're proposing to rename, and then redirect, the same category. Also, Category:Organizations supporting social entrepreneurship may be problematic as it could include orgs which support social enterpreneurship (but do really do it) like the Skoll Foundation, instead of social enterprises themselves which I think is more defining. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your first comment on my proposal. However, I would also keep the other sub-cat for social enterprises, and I think this means there would not be the problem that you suggest. Here is my proposed structure:
A social enterprise which also supports others would belong in both the sub- categories.
The parent cat would just hold the sub-cats, the generic articles and the list of social entrepreneurs. – Fayenatic London 22:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment: although I said "renaming Category:Social entrepreneurship", my proposal is not really a rename, but rather restructure, providing a more specific new category which would make that one redundant, given that we are against categorising biographies in this tree. – Fayenatic London 13:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What is an organization supporting social entrepreneurship? Something like Ashoka? The problem is, many major donors in this space (say USAID, Gates, etc) also support social entrepreneurs. I don't think this is defining. I'm ok with the rest of your structure above - a cat for the field of social enterprise, and then a cat for the orgs which are so deemed as "social enterprises", though we still need a decent consensus definition on what that means - that term itself has become quite wonky and overused.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all, but rename Category:Social entrepreneurship to Category:Social entrepreneurs. I think that's the best solution here: it leaves one category for social enterprises, one category for people involved in the field, and one overarching container catgory. And yes, I'm aware 'Social entrepreneurs' was previously deleted as a category, but it shouldn't have been: like it or not, it's a widely-used term, and for many people it really is the best way of describing their profession. I've come across plenty of articles where I wanted to add that category but was frustrated that it didn't exist (e.g. Joe Green (entrepreneur)). The delete discussion was back in 2007, when the term 'social entrepreneur' was perhaps less widely used than it is now, and it was mistakenly thought of as being redundant to the 'businesspeople' tree when it's actually rather different. Robofish (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that it is a term with some currency, but it still has IMHO major definitional issues - even social enterprise is tricky, but social entrepreneur even more so. Can you point us to some places where this is well and crisply defined, and with some notion of who is *not* a social entrepreneur? I think the founders-by-type-of-org tree is a better place for these people - if they started a business, fine, if they started a non-profit, fine - the rest is more woolly stuff around intent, and while I love that stuff, I'm not sure if we can categorized based on it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Category:Social enterprise, but prune all example enterprises and entrepreneurs, restricting it to the topic, not those who may be examples of the topic; and Delete the other two. This is a rather broad distinction, which would require explanations for each example as to why they are defined as such. To quote social enterprise: "A social enterprise is an organization that applies commercial strategies to maximize improvements in human and environmental well-being, rather than maximising profits for external shareholders. Social enterprises can be structured as a for-profit or non-profit, and may take the form of a co-operative, mutual organization, a social business, or a charity organization." And: "The forms social enterprises can take and the industries they operate in are so many and various that it has always been a challenge to define, find and count social enterprises." - This is just too broad for categorisation. - jc37 19:06, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: from April 12 in order to tag the other categories now affected
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic London 18:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Rob Schneider

Nominator's rationale: Too little content. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:08, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:1920s in Saudi Arabia

Nominator's rationale: Saudi Arabia did not exist in the 1920s (it was established in 1932), so nothing could have happened in Saudi Arabia in the 1920s. As an alternative, the category could be renamed to how the area was known before that time. Dirk Beetstra T C 09:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominators's note - the applicable rename would go to Category:1920s in the Kingdom of Nejd and Hejaz. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Britain and Saudi Arabia 1925-1939" is a rather ridiculous book, since nothing happened in Saudi Arabia in the 1920s. "A Historical Atlas of Saudi Arabia" has "The map on this page, representing the united kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1920". We hve had this discussion numeroud times in the past and now at other category discussions: what is gained by deleting this category? I haven't good one convincing answer yet. I have no objection to people adding the historically named categories as well, where applicable, but to do that one doesn't need to remove the categories for the current countries. These things happened in the 1920s in what is now Saudi Arabia, and have a direct influence on and interest for Saudi Arabia. Fram (talk) 09:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • That second reference is a good one, Fram. It shows you that Saudi Arabia (technically, "the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" ... another misnomer of categories ...) was in the 1920s not the Saudi Arabia as we know it now (that now was established in 1932), resulting in more confusion regarding this categorisation scheme. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Fram. These categories are useful in grouping information about historical stuff that happened within the current borders of the state of Saudi Arabia, and this is very common throughout the category tree. (Indeed, it was nearly universal until some fairly recent nominations.) Like Fram, I have no objection to the parallel use of the historically named categories. Nejd and Hejaz was and is commonly referred to as "Saudi Arabia", even though it was not the "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" as established today. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "this is very common throughout the category tree" is a circular argument. A scheme was set up, and now there are cases which do not strictly fit, but because the scheme is there, we continue because that is how the scheme was designed. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, it's not circular when it's cited as evidence that the category in question is not "wrong" or exceptional when compared to the rest of the tree. You can be in favour of changing the scheme if you want, but there's nothing in the pre-existing nature of the scheme that dictates that it must be changed for consistency' sake—in other words, this category is not out-of-step with the rest. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • You are right that this category is not out of step with the rest - but that is where the problem is, the grand-scheme is followed up to the point that there are questionable cases. I agree that we are now finding symptoms (see the discussions in the last couple of weeks, and I found some of those months ago, and others have found them also, earlier), but the grand scheme needs a second thought, and I have in many places now strongly suggested to come up with a more correct grand scheme, probably with the help of members of history WikiProjects. --Dirk Beetstra T C 06:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename one actual functional category to Category:1927 establishments in Nejd and Hejaz since that was the name of the place at this time. We do not have Category:1875 establishments in the United States, we should likewise not impose other countries on areas before they existed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. We now have this related discussion that has been started. I'm not sure why we couldn't just use this one to determine what will happen to the subcategories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Films starring Jim Carrey

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedily delete per G4 as re-created material. Category:Jim Carrey films was deleted here and a number of other times, and consensus on these types of "films by actor" categories has been unwavering through the years. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Delete We don't keep "films starring Foo" categories for a number of good reasons, the first being that "starring" is hard to define objectively, the second being that these categories quickly lead to clutter. Pichpich (talk) 03:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_17&oldid=560406269"