Talk:Roza Bal/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Minor Errors to be corrected

Some errors which need correction

• 1) Rasail Ikhwan al Saja : should be 'al Saffa'
• 2) Quoting from Jesus in Heaven on Earth ...."translation into English from Urdu translation from Persian Original 'Ikmal ud din ...." give an impression as if the book "Ikmal ud din " was originally in Persin. It is in Arabic , all else are translations.
• 3) Incorrect sentence:

...head to the West and his face to the East ...(incorrect) “He then stretched his legs towards the West and head towards the East and died”. (Shaikh Al-Said-us-Sadiq, Kamal-ud-Din, p.359)

“He laid himself with his head towards the East and stretched his legs towards the West”.( Ibn-i-Muhammad Hadi Muhammad Ismail, Ainul- Hayat, Vol. 2, Ch. 2 : 177-178.) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 11:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I made the necessary corrections. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, 1). thanks for picking up the Saja-Safa typo, I have corrected link to Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa.

Re 2). You're certain Khwaja translated from Arabic? Norbert Klatt implies Khwaja Nazir Ahmad translated from Urdu. Anyway, it's not a big issue. As regards 3). the translations:

A. "Then he stretched out his legs and turned his head to the west and his face to the east. He died in this position." http://www.scribd.com/doc/27461079/Kamal-Al-Deen-wa-Tamam-Al-Ni-mah-Volume-2

B. "He then stretched his legs towards the West and head towards the East and died” Jesus in heaven on earth - Page 362 Khwaja Nazir Ahmad 1952

Even though there are only cosmetic differences I think it would be better to retain the independent Arabic translation, so if you don't mind I have restored 3). the standard English translation. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi OK that is fine. But you did not comment upon the Mulla Nadri source ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 23:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

See above. Thanks for the page ref to 1946 photograph. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Rajatarangini

Is anyone here familiar with the History of Kashmir titled the Rajatarangini? The Sanskrit translation is 'River of Kings". It is a history of Kashmir rulers. In one section covering the time of Jesus is mention of a young prince who was crucified by an evil king (an usurper) but he survived and returned to Kashmir years later. This is the only mention of a crucifixion anywhere in India history, and that it did not occur in India. Further, a king known as Pravarasena had a ceremonial sword that he loved. Inside Roza Bal tomb is a ceremonial sword, now stripped of all ornamentation. It is displayed upright in a stone base, discovered in the Roza Bal tomb. Anyone?  :-) SuzanneOlsson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:37, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne, there is no mention of a crucifixion in the Rajatarangini. Yes the reincarnation of the dead Hindu minister as the next Hindu king is mentioned in the article. What relevance does this have to Ahmadiyya belief? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

ictu oculi, The dates of Sandimatti and Jesus do not line up precisely-off by about 20-25 years. However, there are many similarities. Sandimatti was a Chief Minister, a young prince to an illegal King. He was betrayed (Judas) and taken illegally by night (Sandhedrin did this to Jesus) and hanged from a limb (crucifixion-with or without a cross bar). When his 'guru' named Isaana (apostles?) went to find him, the body was gone (empty tomb). He found the angels restoring Sandimatti (aloe and healing herbs-resuscitation). On Sandimatti's forehead was a sign that predicted he would survive(a reference to the the titulus hung above Jesus' head on the cross). The story of Sandimatti bears a lot of key similarities with the story of Jesus. The differences may be the result of events occurring in one place, then getting changed and mixed up as they got passed along and eventually written in another place. If Jesus returned to Kashmir by one name or another, this is why the story remained a part of the Rajatarangini. This is how some interpret the Sandimatti story and relate it to India. Peace. SuzanneOlsson (talk)

Suzanne. Yes a connection between Aryaraja and Jesus is given by the Spanish UFOlogist Andreas Faber-Kaiser in 1976. Is there any before 1976? But has any WP:RS ever seen any meaningful connection between the New Testament and the 1000 year later story of reincarnation or raising of Samdhimati as Aryaraja? If there is then please add an ISBN and page number on Talk:Aryaraja, but there is no relevance here to the muslim shrine in Srinagar. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi, there is a repeated mention of these lines "Another Kashmiri history, the Rajatarangini, written in 1148 A.D., says that a great saint named Issana lived at Issabar on the bank of Dal Lake and had many disciples, one of which he raised from the dead. " . I have downloaded the 3 Volumes of the book but did not see these lines... can you help ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I did a simple search (not a complete search) and you may be right that it may not be in the book itself. It may just be an internet invention like many others that get copied and repeated everywhere. History2007 (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Inscriptions

(3 and 4): on the Shankar Acharya Temple / Takht e Sulaiman Shankaracharya temple Two of the Inscriptions (no.3, 4) (see pictures page 407 of book 'Jesus in Heaven on Earth') present even today (on the flank walls encasing the staircase ) attests the contents of page 69 of Mullah Nadiri “Tarikh e Kashmir” as follows:

• 3. Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad, Sal punjah wa chahar. (At this time Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood. Year fifty and four.).
• 4. Aishan Yusu paighambar-i-Bani Israil ast. (He is Jesus, Prophet of the Children of Israel).

These Persian Inscriptions are probably of the times of Mughul King Shah Jehan (1592-1666) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 22:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be interested in a link to an online photo of p407 of Jesus in Heaven and on Earth. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, sorry to be lazy. What language exactly is inscription No.4 in? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The Inscription on the staircase, photographed is in Persian. But due to the unique Calligraphy it seems hard to read it. However, I can myself read easily the two words in the upper line: ".... saal punjah Chaharum (the year 50 and 4). It is Persian of, the Official working language in the Mughul days. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually now that I have taken another look, Pappas (page 115) does refer to Nazir Ahmad's book Jesus in Heaven on Earth, and states:

Nazir Ahmad also concludes that the meeting between Yuz Asaf and Shalewahin must have taken place about 78 AD. He indicates (p. 381) that about 60 AD (or in the 50's), Kadephsis I of the Kushans... forced the rulers of this area to pay tribute to him.

About 78 A.D. he (referring to Shalewahin) left northern India for for the Deccan in the south to crush a rebellion there. Therefore, he must have met Yuz Asaf in Wien (Voyen) near Srinagar shortly before his departure for the Deccan during the same year. But how could Shalewahin have waged war in Kashmir when supposedly King Gondophares, who was the sole master of this area, was still the ruler?

Al-Haj Nazir Ahmad's work Jesus in Heaven on Earth, which constitutes the Ahmadi's best historical defense of Jesus' presence in Kashmir as Yuz Asaf, appears to be full of flaws, especially concerning Gondophares' reign.

So that is what Papas says at any rate. History2007 (talk) 15:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

My view is that it is a NEW idea that Jesus is buried in a grave. It may not at all be provable with historical evidences. Death is a surety, location of Grave a conjecture. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I think most scholars agree with your general statement, in that historically speaking death is subject to agreement among scholars (resurrection is a theological teaching) and the location of the grave is not established - in Judea, Japan or Kashmir. In fact Pagels joked at one point that Jesus may have gone to India or may have been abducted by extraterrestrials in a UFO, and no one know either way. But what you and I think matters not in Wikipedia, it is what the WP:RS sources say, of course. History2007 (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi , this UFO story is rather interesting. You are very correct what matters in Wikipedia, rather which sources the editors deem fit to include, matters most ! ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 04:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Ghulam Ahmad publication date

Roza Bal and Ahmadiyya:…the MSS of ”Msih Hindustaan Men” (Urdu: Christ in India) published only after his death in 1908.

Someone fancied in the article that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed, Roza Bal was the Tomb of Jesus, only to prove his identity with Christ.This is incorrect. In fact it is ONLY a minor corollary of the faith of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community that Roza Bal is the “Tomb of Jesus”. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not even publish the book “Masih Hindustaan Men” (Urdu: Christ in India) in his life time, he died on 26th May 1908. The book was published ONLY AFTER HIS DEATH, in November 1908.

The fact is, it a consequence to the researches of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that Jesus did not die upon the cross and was rescued and travelled to a Mountainous high ground full of Springs (the Holy Qur’an says: “And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.” (Quran 23:50) ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 06:44, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali,

1. Do you have the page reference where Ghulam Ahmad applies Quran 23:50 to Kashmir?

The verse 23:50 has not been referred to in his book “Masih Hindustan Men”, but has been mentioned repeatedly in other of his books: In the exegesis of verse 50 chapter 23 (al-Mominoon) the Qur’an; “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water” (23:50), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad clearly states that this verse of the Qura’an purports to Jesus and his mother Mary being granted shelter, security and peace in Kashmir (Sirinagar) in the following references:

1. Read Book ‘Kashti e Noah’ [the Ark of Noah], page 19, (footnote) and page 77 (footnote), Published October 5, 1902. [Ruhani Khazain, Volume 19, p.33]. here. http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Kashti_Nooh/?l=Urdu#page/19/mode/1up And also on page 77 ( of same book)

2. http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Kashti_Nooh/?l=Urdu#page/77/mode/1up

3. Book “Ijaz e Ahmadi (Zameema Nazool ul Mahih)”, (p.23) (RK Vol 19, page 127 read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Ijaz_e_Ahmadi/?l=Urdu#page/127/mode/1up

4. Book “Al Huda” (p. 124), and page 368 of Vol 19 RK, (June 1902), read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Al_Huda/?l=Urdu#page/368/mode/1up

5. Book Tadh kira tushahadatain (Oct 1903) (p. 29), RK, Vol 20, page 29, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Tadhkirat_ush_Shahadatain/?l=Urdu#page/29/mode/1up

6. Book ‘Baraheen Ahmadiyya Part 5th, (1905) (page 229), RK Vol 21, page 404, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Braheen_e_Ahmadiyya/?l=Urdu&p=5#page/404/mode/1up

7. Book ‘Haqeeqa tul Wahi” (1907) (p.232) RK Vol 22, page 243, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Haqiqat_ul_Wahi/?l=Urdu#page/243/mode/1up

ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 09:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

2. The following source says 1899:

Leonard Fernando, Dr George Gispert-Sauch Christianity In India: Two Thousand Years of Faith 2004 p28 "A third source of the legend of Christ in India comes from a late Muslim tradition, especially as popularized by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, in his book Masih Hindustan Main, first published in Urdu in 1899 "

In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually the publisher's note in the book itself (page v) says: "Written in 1899, and partly serialized in Review of Religions in 1902 and 1903, the book itself was posthumously published on 20th November 1908". Just search for that and it will show. And Navras Jaat Aafreedi in Shofar Volume 28, Number 1, pp. 1-14 suggests 1899. Mark Bothe in Die "Jesus-in-Indien-Legende" (page 6) also says 1899. The Spanish version of Hassnain's La otra historia de Jesus page 212 says: "Masih Hindustan Mein, compilada en 1899 y publicada en 1908". Paul Constantine Pappas in Jesus' Tomb in India (page 69) says it was first published in 1899. So the publisher's note may make sense, as does Dr Ali's statement. The Review of Religions is an Ahmaddi publication, so he wrote it in 1899, started to disseminate it in parts in 1902, and it was then published about 6 months after his death in 1908. History2007 (talk) 03:34, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks H, do you want to add to Jesus in India (book). In ictu oculi (talk) 17:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I had just done that. You read my mind... History2007 (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Youtube promoting book

I made a trailer for my book about Roza Bal....first film I ever made! The book contains information and references and sources for virtually everything discussed on this talk page...however, I am learning an amazing new amount of info from these exchanges! Thank you all. The inscriptions at Takt-i-Sulieman are in the Sulu-Persian script, in the Arabic family. A variation of this script came into common use in the Pakistan-Afghan region after the advent of Islam..Professor Asko Parpola "Deciphering the Indus Script", published by University of Cambridge, 1994...pp 129-130: "There are more than 20 Neo-Iranian languages, including modern Persian...Archaeological and textual evidence attests to Sumerian visits from c. 3300 BC onwards. Harappans had been trading in the Gulf since at least Akkadian times." The book goes on to give many examples of these blended scripts and how they came about, so dating them to modern Arabic is not possible. For those who are geographically challenged, Iran borders modern Pakistan which was once ancient India- these scripts flowed back and forth constantly among traders and travelers, especially because this is the heart of the Old Silk Road. I have also used 'A Companion to Sanskrit Literature' by Sures Chandra Banerji..Delhi, 1971; pp 67-671: It is impossible to ascertain precisely when the art of writing originated in India. There are three distinct periods of scripts; Pre-Mauryan, Mauryan, and Indus Valley. Ashoka used Yavanani (a Greek version) Brahmi, and Karoshti. The alphabets written from right to left in India were predominantly in the extreme northwest areas, considered Persian domains since before 300 BC" (p.671-672) Here's the link to my book trailer-

Jesus in Kashmir The Lost Tomb

I worked hard on this so please don't be too critical. All the best, Suzanne Olsson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.27.120 (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne, here is Asko Parpola's homepage. http://www.helsinki.fi/~aparpola/ I suggest you email him the url for the two inscriptions for the Shankaracharya Temple and ask him to date them. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sue, it is a wonderful addition.Engr John (talk) 10:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Engr John. It has given me much trepidation to make that first and only book trailer..I feel I am up against some really good professionals! I am sure that so many editors here will have some usful advise for me. For ictu oculi, thank you for the URL to Parpola's page..Good idea to contact him directly but I am not sure that he is still living.Will check it out...I've had his book for years and used it often. I too wonder what he would make of the inscription! Along the KKH there are over ten thousand inscriptions, left in every script known to man! In places like India and Pakistan there are 'intellectual clubs' that form and make a game of trying to decipher the ancient scripts. They take this very seriously and scolarly. Many used books like Parpola's for guidelines..In fact he acquired a lot of his knowledge about the scripts this way! Best regards, SueSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Drat. I got the email ready to send Parpola, and cannot find a link to the scripts in question. Anyone? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne http://www.muslim.org/bookspdf/jihoe/jihoe24-27.pdf In ictu oculi (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Films to Include

I am just curious why a fiction book is mentioned,yet this no mention of recent documentary films about Roza Bal, such as the one by Government of India. Couldn't a section on films and documentaries be added to improve the page ? I notice this is on other pages at Wiki. If you would like a list of current English documentaries, I can post it here.Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it really "by" Government of India, and not just approved for public wiewing or something like that? http://www.thegreatplanet.com/the-rozabal-shrine-of-srinagar-india-documentary/ Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, I can see something like this being mentioned, preferably sourced to a rewiew in a indian newspaper or film-magazine, perhaps? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Grabs Graa Sang, I have had extensive communications with Yashendra Prasad, the India film maker, and he assures that the Gov. of India sent him to make the documentary. Further, they had to review it and approve its contents and release...The film made by Paul Davids is independent. There are also films by BBC, History Channel, and others. Should I start to compile a list that you all might review for inclusion here? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

By the way, as I understand it, "The Rozabal Line" got some attention in media and sold well, thus we mention it. I feel that any documentary/whatever we want to mention have to be sourced to a WP:RS (the more the better), a dedicated webpage/blog written by the filmmaker won´t be enough. So I would focus on those you can find WP:RS for. Come to think of it, having "Did Jesus Die?" in the article is a bit of a stretch, it´s more about swoon hypothesis and perhaps Unknown years of Jesus than Roza Bal, but since BBC means both Notable and Reliable to most of us, it should stay. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Grabergs Graa Sang. I will start a small list and include references from outside sources as you suggested WP:RS... Hope I can have the list posted here in a few days. Peace and blessings....Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 03:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 03:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Backatya! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I should probably say that I am a pretty uncomfortable with a list of semi-unknown movies by semi-nobody film makers such as Prasad. I mean unless there is a new theory that Roger Ebert has now been buried at Roza Bal and has somehow communicated to people that he wants Wikipedia to become a movie review site about it, then this should still remain "an encyclopedia almost entirely driven by scholarship" not a new reincarnation of TV Guide.

I mean unless these movies have renowned scholars like Pagels saying things there, what encyclopedic value do they have? Why should they get any attention at all?

The Roza Bal line gets a sentence because it was a huge best seller, just as The Da Vinci Code gets a sentence here and there. But beyond those best sellers, what encyclopedic value is provided by the wannabe-Spielbergs like Prasad who may make a movie for $20k or so? He also makes movies about yoga, etc. and has zero credentials and zero credibility in terms of scholarship on this topic. And that he received a letter from someone in the government in India means nothing, unless the letter had appointed him to be a distinguished professor of history in some university. I seriously doubt that. I therefore think that just because low budget movies may have been made, their inclusion in encyclopedia items has no merit unless they have achieved significant notability by virtue of dramatic commercial success or they include significant scholarship. The current film does not; and others like it should also be excluded for they would just hint at things while providing zero scholarship. History2007 (talk) 13:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I basically agree, but since the subject is pretty obscure, I think "The Rozabal Shrine of Srinagar" (or what´s out there), can be mentioned if it can be shown that it had an article/review in 2-3 decent indian newspapers/moviemagazines. Being produced by an indian equivalent of the BBC should probably count some as well (I´m not saying it was). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, let us see where it was mentioned and more importantly, who was in it. The Richard Denton BBC item is OK not just because it was on BBC (Fawlty Towers was also on BBC...) but because it had Crossan, Fredriksen, Wright, etc. These are all really big names and highly notable scholars with their own Wiki pages, scholarly publications, holding professorships in major universities. As you said, that program was about swoon more than Roza Bal, but still to have all those scholars talk on a program makes it notable. So let us see who is talking on these films then go from there based on the scholarship it may offer. The interesting phenomenon here is that somehow the public believes half-baked movies more than scholarly books, but encyclopedias can not be driven by that phenomenon. History2007 (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Maybe it´ll have the Indian Governments head of religious artifacts or something. And Fawlty Towers was GOOD ;-)Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Funny you should say "head of artifacts" today... Maybe we can cook up new theory about this one too... History2007 (talk) 21:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It´s obvious: a secret remake of Life of Brian. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Here are the documentary comments about Jesus in India by Dr. James Tabor. "James Tabor in the BBC4 documentary Did Jesus Die?: “Jesus would have to leave the territory, and we would have to ask the question ‘where would he go?’. If we look on a map, Palestine is on the far Eastern border of the Roman Empire. If you go west, you are going right into the heart of the Roman territory, where we have our 15 legions stationed around the world. If you go east, you are crossing over into Parthia, and you are going towards Persia eventually and India and Afganistan, that direction”

He later goes on to say: "People forget that the Messiah’s got to do essentially two things. Everyone knows he’s got to bring world peace and justice and defeat evil. That’s all the way through the prophets. When the Messiah comes he is a prince of peace. But the other huge task is he’s got to gather all the scattered tribes of Israel back to the land of Israel. Now this takes a bit of explaining but it’s not too complicated. The people we know today as the Jews are only one tribe – the tribe of Judah. And we have in the Hebrew Bible the story of ten of the tribes been taken away to the east, to the north east, by the Assyrians - in the eighth century BC. They become know in the history as the “Lost Tribes” because nobody knows exactly what happened to them. We do though — We can speculate that if Jesus thought of himself as the Messiah, he might have had in mind, ‘I’ve got to go and present myself to these dispersed brothers and sisters — wherever they might be’ ”. (James Tabor, Professor of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina) SuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but I am sorry what does that have to do with anything historical? Apart from the obvious fact that Tabor these days has as much academic credibility as Elmer Fudd (not because of this, but for the rest of his theories) the above is just speculation about motives, and has zero historical references. And he does say "We can speculate that if ..." anyway. So it is all just speculation sans evidence. And anyway Tabor is supporting the Talipot tomb story these days, and I have not seem him formally endorse Roza Bal anywhere. Has he supported Roza bal as a burial place in a formal written document or in his books anywhere? If he is a formal supporter (which would have to be listed in the liability column for whatever he supports, anyway) where was that? History2007 (talk) 17:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

OK History2007- I think we get your point. About the scripts carved into Takht i Sulieman, they support the theory that YuzAsaf came to kashmir as Jesus: If I knew how to post the jpg scripts here, I would do that. The translations ere inscribed to replace older, damaged scripts that would soon be lost..It was the job of Rishis to keep records of these ancient scripts- to write them over every few generations --as the old ones became too worn to be legible..this is still done by rishis in Kashmir to this day (and by Buddhist monks in Himalayan monasteries) "TWO 'INSCRIPTIONS' translate as follows..

These inscriptions are of the time of Mughal King Shah Jahan and written upon the stair case of the Temple Shankar Acharya, Sri Nagar. Kashmir (also called as 'Takht e Sulaiman')

1. Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad, Sal punjah wa chahar. (At this time Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood. Year fifty and four.).

2. Aishan Yusu paighambar-i-Bani Israil ast. (He is Jesus, Prophet of the Children of Israel). SuzanneOlsson

So, first I now assume that we have no actual source that states that Tabor supports Roza bal. Right?

Secondly is there a source that dates the inscriptions? I thought Asko Parpola was going to see if he can date them. Has he agreed to do so? If/when he does and publishes that, then it will be of use. Or is there another source beyond folklore for this?

And in any case, regarding the re-inscriptions every few generations, is there evidence that it was done accurately and corresponds to the original (if any)? Or does it just place faith in the traditions of the Rishi? Did some Rishi ever pull a Bourbaki? I wonder... I always liked Weil and Cartan for doing that... Weil even had business card printed an all. They must have had a good laugh... Never had a chance to do one myself... History2007 (talk) 18:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The inscription are no more.... all obliterated. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

A source for that would settle it once and for all. And so why are the inscriptions even being discussed? History2007 (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The inscriptions are being discussed because they support the discussions about Yuz Asaf and Roza Bal. In all circumstances I am aware of..rishi translations, copy and preservation of old records match those recovered as well in ancient Aramaic, Greek, and Latin. Can you prove to us anything to the contrary? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

So I now assume you are not going to present a source. Right? So again, talk sans source. And WP:Burden says that I do not have to prove anything to you. Wikipedia does not "work by proof", it works by sources. I am tempted to suggest a reading of the WP:RS page... History2007 (talk) 19:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Foot Prints and Crucifixion

I Quote from a blog.... The grave site shows two footprints. A crucifix and a rosary once decorated the grave. In Asia, foot prints on Graves of spiritual people are a widespread tradition. The foot prints always display certain characteristic features. Thus, Buddha’s footprints were adorned with a swastika. The swastika was originally an old Indian symbol for good luck. The foot prints of Yuz Asaf display the wounds of a crucifixion. This is so evident that it cannot be denied. Nevertheless, critics refuse to accept the evident characteristics on those footprints. Denying what is so obvious to many historians will save an entire world religion from its demise --ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

But WP:USERG says that Wikipedia can not use blogs. History2007 (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't quote from a blog...Just look at the footprints and at medical drawings of crucifixion wounds (matching wound scars on the Shroud of Turin) when one foot is twisted over another and both held in place with a spike..same scars on Shroud of Turin and at Roza bal.SuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

But WP:NOR says not to do what you just said. History2007 (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

what is so obvious to many historians will save an entire world religion from its demise, ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Then all history is a failure, and so is common sense and all research.SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

WP:NOR says not to do what you just did. History2007 (talk) 19:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

where is the OR in above para ? ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The "Just look at the footprints and at medical drawings of crucifixion wounds" would be WP:OR. And there is no source that says "all history is a failure", of course. Both are source free and hence original unattributed research. History2007 (talk) 19:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh I see. The remarks must have been rather differently worded, "as according to XXXX and ZZZZ " the footprints....: I agree with you History2007. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

It is not just the "wording", but the absolute requirement for a WP:RS source; else it is WP:OR. But I have said that more times now than there are people buried in India... History2007 (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I think we shall never find a Source to the effect that "Jesus is buried here in Roza Bal".... a theoretical impossibility . But yes "the Piping" Yuz|Yusu|Yuz. Regardsڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, as they say.... I will leave him a message to look for the source. But I think what we can confidently say now after all this research is that

As of May 2013, no one has presented a modern WP:RS source that has presented evidence of Jesus being buried in Roza Bal, but several WP:RS sources indicate that the assertion of his burial at Roza Bal was based on misprints and historical confusions.

That is what all these discussions and research has indicated. And we have looked, and looked and looked. The only modern sources that claim that Jesus is at Roza Bal are self-published or unreliable sources. That is totally clear. So we really need to agree on that and move on until some new sources appear in the scholarly literature. Unles the next thread here starts with "... relics again". Then I will just have to go and ask to get myself buried at Roza Bal... History2007 (talk) 22:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh my gosh...History 2007- why did you chooses such a nickname? Misprints and historical confusion? "Modern sources" for ancient historical evidence? That's not likely in a place where you'll be shot for approaching the tomb with a science lab kit. The only failure to produce sufficient evidence is in the head of beholders trying to defend their weakened historical-religious positions. So sad. So very sad. If/when you ever get buried in Roza Bal I promise I will be the first to send you flowers. Should I then self-publish a biography all about you? From my POV?SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

Do you have a source for "The only failure to produce sufficient evidence is in the head of beholders"? And I hear they don't shoot people who try to dig up Roza Bal, they just file FIRs... (inside joke, for those who do not know the story...) History2007 (talk) 23:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)